Bards: Thinking outside the Box


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

101 to 115 of 115 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

LilithsThrall wrote:
I see Batman spending a lot of time engaging in psychological warfare - performing as a demon spirit in the night - to spread fear in the hearts of evil doers.

I agree - that was NOT the situation presented, though. He operates, in general as you describe.

In specific I was taking issue with using Perform-based skills in combat as being "ninja-like" in flavor.

More specific the reference was a spy losing his cover right there and then reacting with song, dance, or what have you. Batman does NOT do this when his cover is blown. He fights his way out and looks to regroup and recover as much as he can.


The Speaker in Dreams wrote:


It's just more ... I don't know. Like an Ogre-Mage in format. Might read like "Invisibility x/day" is what I've seen from them IF you wanted to go full on "they're magic, BABY!!"
.

Such a class does not exist in core. What core class best captures what the Ninja is?

What class is relatively decent in melee, has strong CHA based skills (including bluff, diplomacy, etc.), good stealth skills, the ability to disappear (forex. dimn door), the ability to do mind control, etc.?


The Speaker in Dreams wrote:


More specific the reference was a spy losing his cover right there and then reacting with song, dance, or what have you. Batman does NOT do this when his cover is blown. He fights his way out and looks to regroup and recover as much as he can.

You do realize that the perform skill can also be oratory (ie. talking), right?

I certainly never argued that Batman prances around like a silly man with a lute.

Grand Lodge

He pulls out his Bat-Smoke Bomb and vanishes. :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
He pulls out his Bat-Smoke Bomb and vanishes. :)

You know that scene in Batman Begins - the one where Batman first makes his big appearance as Batman against the thugs at the railroad depot?

That has Dirge of Doom all over it.


LilithsThrall wrote:
The Speaker in Dreams wrote:


It's just more ... I don't know. Like an Ogre-Mage in format. Might read like "Invisibility x/day" is what I've seen from them IF you wanted to go full on "they're magic, BABY!!"
.

Such a class does not exist in core. What core class best captures what the Ninja is?

What class is relatively decent in melee, has strong CHA based skills (including bluff, diplomacy, etc.), good stealth skills, the ability to disappear (forex. dimn door), the ability to do mind control, etc.?

Arcane trickster with 3/4 BAB. I argued for it, with the idea that a bard/rogue could be such a character, but with the reduced BAB, it's just not exciting to mix the bard with rogue.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
The Speaker in Dreams wrote:


It's just more ... I don't know. Like an Ogre-Mage in format. Might read like "Invisibility x/day" is what I've seen from them IF you wanted to go full on "they're magic, BABY!!"
.

Such a class does not exist in core. What core class best captures what the Ninja is?

What class is relatively decent in melee, has strong CHA based skills (including bluff, diplomacy, etc.), good stealth skills, the ability to disappear (forex. dimn door), the ability to do mind control, etc.?
Arcane trickster with 3/4 BAB. I argued for it, with the idea that a bard/rogue could be such a character, but with the reduced BAB, it's just not exciting to mix the bard with rogue.

Bards have Intimidate, UMD, and a higher, higher BAB, more skills, and more hit points. I think they are a better fit.


Part of the problem with this argument is that the bard is from western history and the ninja of eastern history. The two don't necessarily mesh well. I guess the crux of the argument is does all of the bards abilities fit what a ninja is or does the bard have the ability to function as a ninja using the abilities at his/her disposal. For me I make characters based on what I want them to do and then take classes, feats and spells to make it work. So I take the latter view and would argue that a bard can function as a ninja.

I look at the ninja's primary roles as being infilitration, spying, stealth and assassination. A bard can do three of those very well thanks to the class skills and spells available. The assassination bit is where the bard struggles until level 20, but if you tap into the 3.5 options I would think a bard could still do it well. Might not be able to take down an opponent of equivalent level down in 1-2 rounds, but with the right spells they could be very effective assassins - particularly if they catch the target off guard.


Yeah, I tend to agree with BQ here. I, as the OP, wasn't saying that the Bard is the "perfect" ninja, and readily admitted that rogue is the typical choice for people. But if you can get over the name "Bard" and look at the character and how the class features fit the character concept, I think bard functions very well as a ninja.

Stealth, misdirection, confusion, disguise, and all the rest are asily acoomplished by the Bard class. There's a reason I said using the bard as a ninja is thinking outside the box, but hey, if you can get your mind out of the box of the label of a bard, a ninja type would be well doable. That's all I'm saying :)


I think the biggest issue bards have, ignoring the whole ninja thing, is that lutes are just more or less lame.

Seriously, almost any other instrument would be fine. A half-orc bard that follows the party beating a primal tune on his drums? Awesome. A gruff dwarven commander who hammers his own shield as he gives a speech? Totally cool. When you have a bard on your team, you can totally lead that final charge on the enemy while playing Ride of the Valkyries!

I have a half-elf bard who uses a fiddle in one of my games, going for Sublime Chord. One of the party's targeted BBEG? A lich bard with a guitar. Give yourself several minutes to comprehend how incredibly awesome that final confrontation is going to be.

So yeah, the problem isn't the bards as musicians thing, the problem is that lutes suck.

Dark Archive

Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Arcane trickster with 3/4 BAB. I argued for it, with the idea that a bard/rogue could be such a character, but with the reduced BAB, it's just not exciting to mix the bard with rogue.

Well, to keep the would-be Trickster at pace in combat, one could do either a Fighter Thug (though I think Street Fighter would've been a cooler name, heheh) or a Fighter who forgoes bonus feats for sneak attack (not as painful in Pathfinder RPG with the few additional feats for all).

Funny; when I dropped in on the thread after school yesterday, there were 33 new messages. Then when I checked this morning (Spring Break... ahhh...) there were 33 new messages. I thought perhaps my browser failed to refresh. Ah-nope.

Liberty's Edge

At the very least, the bard can use Perform(Act) to act like a ninja. :)

Grand Lodge

Like this?


ProfessorCirno wrote:


I have a half-elf bard who uses a fiddle in one of my games, going for Sublime Chord. One of the party's targeted BBEG? A lich bard with a guitar. Give yourself several minutes to comprehend how incredibly awesome that final confrontation is going to be.

Whoever wins the "Devil Went Down to Georgia" contest gets to live?


LilithsThrall wrote:


Bards have Intimidate, UMD, and a higher, higher BAB, more skills, and more hit points. I think they are a better fit.

Rogues have all that, and stack with bard nicely.

Arcane trickster (mistakenly, I think) has poor hit points and BAB. Bard skills, spells, and charm, mixed with the rogue's sneak attack and talents would make a sly, sneaky bluffer who can put down some hurt when he needs to.

101 to 115 of 115 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Bards: Thinking outside the Box All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.