If a tiger moves up to a bear and attacks, the tiger can then initiate a free grab attempt against the bear.
Assume that the tiger succeeds. They are now both grappling with the tiger being dominant.
When the bear's turn comes up, he attacks the tiger with a claw attack, which activates HIS grab ability. Assuming he succeeds on his grab attack, who is now the dominant grappler?
How do you adjudicate a situation like this?
The bear can initiate a grapple as a free with a successful claw attack.
So he rolls the CMB and tries to break the grapple. Basically, i'm saying that it allows for multiple attempts to break the grapple - as opposed to a standard action.
The bear can initiate a grapple as a free with a successful claw attack.
So he rolls the CMB and tries to break the grapple. Basically, i'm saying that it allows for multiple attempts to break the grapple - as opposed to a standard action.
I see this as a bad interpretation because it means it is never worthwhile for a grappling PC to grapple someone with this ability. It costs a feat with 2 prereqs to be able to make more than 1 grapple check in a round if you are grappling.
I would rule that the Bear's ability cannot trigger while being grappled. It is a corner case not covered by the rules.
It is a corner case not covered by the rules.
It's certainly not covered in the rules, as you say, but it is hardly a corner case. Nearly every other monster in the bestiary has the grab ability and the party cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, or summoner could readily have a companion creature with grab.
It's not RAW, but given the nature of the word grab, I'd only allow it to apply to initiate a grapple.
If a tiger moves up to a bear and attacks, the tiger can then initiate a free grab attempt against the bear.
Assume that the tiger succeeds. They are now both grappling with the tiger being dominant.
When the bear's turn comes up, he attacks the tiger with a claw attack, which activates HIS grab ability. Assuming he succeeds on his grab attack, who is now the dominant grappler?
How do you adjudicate a situation like this?
I'd say the bear is now in control. In this case his free grab is essentially a free "reversal".
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It is covered in the rules of grab:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.
It can attempt to start a grapple. If it is already grappling that opponent it has no effect. Also keep in mind that grab only works with creatures at least one size category smaller.
So a Grizzly Bear against a Tiger, both large animals, could not use the grab tactic against each other even to start a grapple.
So a Grizzly Bear against a Tiger, both large animals, could not use the grab tactic against each other even to start a grapple.
Well, take two behirs as an example, then:
"A behir's grab attack works against creatures of any size category."
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So a Grizzly Bear against a Tiger, both large animals, could not use the grab tactic against each other even to start a grapple.Well, take two behirs as an example, then:
"A behir's grab attack works against creatures of any size category."
In that case, either one could get a free grapple attempt on any successful strike. But once they are grappling, the ability no longer grants a free attempt to start a grapple. You can't start something that is already happening.
It explicitly says it can be used to "start a grapple" not during a grapple.
That said, the ability also grants a +4 bonus when starting or maintaining a grapple. So the controller gets the +4 bonus when he starts the grapple and maintaining it, the other would not get the bonus unless it gains control of the grapple and then tries to maintain it.
Ugh. Grapple still sucks.
I kind of liked 3.5 grappling. It might have had too much die rolling, but they overall framework was not bad.
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Ugh. Grapple still sucks.I kind of liked 3.5 grappling. It might have had too much die rolling, but they overall framework was not bad.+1.
The "move the character to any adjacent square" is really rife for abuse.
So for example.. take a large, creature with reach.
...
Fighter walks into square a, the invisible large creature whacks it, grapples it, and moves it to square 2, where the punk thieves sneak attack it...
Roll initiative....
I, as GM and Player, interpret that as the closest adjacent square. When initiating a grapple you just drag the opponent closer to you. Of course that is not RAW but you can't otherwise move an adjacent opponent to any space you want when initiating a grapple so why would you be able to if you aren't adjecent when the grapple starts.
Now, on a successful attempt to maintain the grapple you can move a creature to any adjacent space, so next turn he could expose you to the thieves.
Ugh... off topic.