The wording regarding 'Space' relates to the Combat & Movement section of that chapter.
A creature is said to occupy a specific amount of space and have a `reach` outside of that (for instance, most Giants have 10ft space (2 x 2 grid of 5ft squares) and a reach of 10ft ontop of this).
Creatures cannot exist in the same square as a creatures space unless the following happens.
1.) Unless the creature is `helpless` you cannot exist within that creatures space.
2.) A Fine, Tiny or Diminuitive creature can enter into a space occupied by another creature but provokes an AoO doing so normally.
3.) If a creature is 3 or more size categories bigger than you, then you may enter into the creatures space but still provoke an AoO doing so.
4.) A creature is incorporeal or has no distinct mass does not prevent creatures from entering its space, whereas a creature who completely fills the space (such as Oozes) cannot be tumbled past using Acrobatics and other special abilities.
While I agree the `Whirlwind` is a funnel shape and has a space around and under the wider top of it, the books do not take into account the reality if its shape. More or less, they rule its more like a cyliner in its area of effect which is considered its space, for the ease of the rules.
Yes they should word it a little better, but its not been written for realistic physics - they more or less generalise it by saying ALL creatures `ejected` from the Whirlwind are still within the creatures space.
Without a doubt, if a whirlwind carried its opponent into the air 100ft and then `deposited` them in its space, they`d fall 100ft the the earth and suffer fall damage accordingly.
But if the whirlwind is practically touching the ground, picks them up and drops them...the text NEVER explains how far if any distance that a creature is `lifted` up inside the funnel (which logically could be as high as the funnel itself but this is never elaborated or called out in the rules), and while it would make sense to rule that fall damage is appropiate, its never mentioned in the text. The fact creatures are deposited in the same space the Whirlwind occupies must attest to some unexplicable factor that leaves falling damage unmentioned. HOWEVER, like any other flying creature that can fly targets to a height and drop them would do falling damage to those creatures but they cant very well do it inches above the ground.
The reason why Earth Elementals cannot take passengers with them is the same reason Incorporeal creatures that have a `Ghost Touch` quality to handle physical things cannot drag someone through a wall.
The Earth Elementals body is composed of rock and earth, the description says it glides through the earth like a fish and leaves behind NO hole behind in its wake. Because of its anatomical composition it can accomplish this, it cannot drag a non-earth elemental creature without this ability with it (such creatures would hit the surface and stop).
The same would apply to creatures with Incorporeal Forms, despite how they can move and where they can go, its down to their physical forms that they accomplish this - they cannot take passengers with them any more than a Earth Elemental can. Both abilities (among other similar abilities) work based on the physiology of the creature using it.
As for creatures like the Tarresque lifting beings and dropping them, of course thats legitimate falling damage. Because the creature was specifically carried up that distance.
Flying creatures who achieve altitude can of course drop creatures for falling damage, but they need to achieve height first to do so.
Its purely speculative how high any carried creatures within a whirlwind are when theyre ejected...such rules overcomplicate the ability which is designed to capture, restrict and damage an opponent over time. The fact remains when such creatures are `dropped` at ground level the Whirlwind still occupies that area, as such the powerful gusting winds and so forth are still present.
The rules are unspecific how if at all, falling damage is present within the confines of a Whirlwind (see the spell of the same name for elaboration), both the spell and effect specifically call out when damage occurs and what effects are present, the difference is WHERE you deposit them (into a pit, or a pool of lava...you pick), its deadly enough as it is. You could `drop` an opponent into a very unfavorable place indeed using this ability.
If the ability and the spell said creatures were ejected OUTSIDE the whirlwinds space then of course I`d never argue about fall damage applying, but as its written, theyre dropped in the same space it occupies wether actual shape be taken into account or not.
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Regarding any rule, the specific rule trumps the general rule. Most creatures don't describe the space it occupies other than a single number, they use the general rule. This one specifies the space specifically so the general rule is overridden.
Its purely speculative how high any carried creatures within a whirlwind are when theyre ejected...such rules overcomplicate the ability which is designed to capture, restrict and damage an opponent over time.
It is also purely speculative to derive the intent of a certain ability. Did you design it?
Everything is speculative when the rules aren't clear enough. It simply needs a bit of clarification. It doesn't specifically say it ejects them from the bottom, but in it's "space", you haven't convinced me that the space isn't a forty foot tall tapered cylinder that something could easily be dropped from and take 3d6 of damage do to the fact that it is falling along side of the effect and not within it. The whirlwind says "may be lifted into the air" and "Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them" it can pick you up, and it can drop you and it is forty feet tall. So why can't it then drop you from height?
It is unclear, but there is more supporting evidence for dropping than for gently placing the subject on the ground without damaging it.
I'm surprised no one brought this up during the conversation about the creature's intelligence:
What if a wizard (Int 18+) used the spell Elemental Body IV? Wouldn't that solve the intelligence issue of whether or not the elemental in question would "think" to use this tactic?
You should treat whirlwind much like trample and only apply it once a round.
I think it's a squeaky wheel and grease issue: trample was being abused that way, was noticed and got the language while whirlwind was not.
Logically they are the same kind of attack,
James
+1 Nice catch.
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It takes 2 seconds to fall 40'. It probably takes twice as long to be swept *up* 40'. Round over.
Whirlwind is a crazy ability, certainly wrecked my 3.0 game way back (8th level spell from a staff of the magi... at 10th-12th level). But it's not *that* crazy. You save once against the whirlwind, you don't get picked up that round. You grabbed hold of something and aren't going anywhere.
How does it take 2 seconds to fall 40 feet? You fall 128 feet in 2 seconds in a vacuum and wind resistance does not slow down acceleration much until it gets closer to it's terminal velocity (which is closer to 1000 feet a round for a flailing medium sized character, more if they are trying to go faster and less if they are trying to go slower. Though these numbers are not 100% precise as every person would fall at a slightly different speed due to wind resistance.
You do reach terminal velocity in 1 round though, if that's any help.
Sorry to go on a sidetrack about a post so far back.
Is there any kind of game rule for how fast you fall in a round?
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Is there any kind of game rule for how fast you fall in a round?
This is the only Pathfinder rule I could find.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
This seems to suggest that you might fall 500', at least in the 1st round.
The v3.5 Main FAQ on the Wizards site breaks down falling:
- 1st second, 16 feet
- 2nd second, 48 feet
- 3rd second, 80 feet
- 4th second, 112 feet
- 5th second, 144 feet
- 6th second, 176 feet
- 1st Round Total = 576 feet
- 2nd Round & Every Round thereafter 1,200 feet
In the FAQ they recommend 500 feet for the 1st round so that seems to support the rule in Pathfinder.
By the 2nd round you have reached terminal velocity, hence the 1,200 foot drop.
Something I noticed about the WW is that the AE size increases so that it can pick up creatures of the same size as its original form.
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind"
"A whirlwind's width at its peak is always equal to half of its height."
the size of the creature doesnt matter only the size of the WW itself
By running back and forth across a line of three or four foes, the AE was able to hit each foe at least 4 or 5 times with its 100 ft. speed, forcing them to make DC 18 Ref saves to avoid being caught and a 2nd save to avoid 1d8+4 dmg on each pass.
You should treat whirlwind much like trample and only apply it once a round.
I think it's a squeaky wheel and grease issue: trample was being abused that way, was noticed and got the language while whirlwind was not.
Logically they are the same kind of attack,
James
Great point, James. Thank you. I will point this out at the next session, and I'm sure all the players will agree. Everyone agreed that as we were using it was broken, so this makes since. And thank you to Russ, who basically said the same thing way back in this thread. The trample point really does illustrate RAI vs. RAW in this case.
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Something I noticed about the WW is that the AE size increases so that it can pick up creatures of the same size as its original form.
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind"
"A whirlwind's width at its peak is always equal to half of its height."
the size of the creature doesnt matter only the size of the WW itself
Look at the phrase again (emphasis changed):
"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind"
Whirlwinds don't have size categories other than the size category the base creature has. The whirlwind is an effect which doesn't change the creature's size category.
I believe your Air Elemental is is moving wrong. It only has a fly speed so to flip a 180 degree turn costs it 10 feet of movement plus 5 feet for every pass it makes over a foe. This reduces the number of times it can effectivly pass over a single medium foe to 4 times in a round.
Personally I don't think a maximum 36 damage is gonna break a combat.
Edit: If I moved it more effectivley I can get 5 passes instead of four so 45 damage vs. 1 foe(max). Still not gonna worry as a GM or player. Sure it's strong but that's why a CR 5 foe is a workout for 4 level 5 PC's
I had to fight one of these recently and hate to rain on your parade, but an Air elemental has Perfect maneuverability, so it doesn't have to pay exrta to do 180 degree turns.
I really hate to defend this creature but its flight capabilities are disgusting and imagine fighting this thing over a 100 Ft or more drop!
I had to fight one of these recently and hate to rain on your parade, but an Air elemental has Perfect maneuverability, so it doesn't have to pay exrta to do 180 degree turns.
In PFRPG, perfect maneuverability basically means a +8 bonus to Fly checks. See the Fly skill for details.
I had to fight one of these recently and hate to rain on your parade, but an Air elemental has Perfect maneuverability, so it doesn't have to pay exrta to do 180 degree turns.In PFRPG, perfect maneuverability basically means a +8 bonus to Fly checks. See the Fly skill for details.
sorry, I don't use the fly skill, never had a problem with the flying rules from 3.5, they made perfect sense to me.
If you're large you ignore a large AE's whirlwind anyway.
This came up in our game last night. The party druid had changed into a large air elemental during a fight with some hill giants. We found the whirlwind attack description vague and confusing, in particular this bit:
Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through a creature's space. [...] Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air.
So what is the effect on a hill giant? There was some discussion, and we came up with two options: first, the giant is caught in the whirlwind, but is not lifted; second, that there is no effect at all on the giant due to its size.
The druid's player was arguing that the "one or more size categories smaller" clause only applied to the lifting and damage, but that such creatures would still be caught within the whirlwind, suffering the penalties to mobility. We all conceded that it was not clear -- as you can see above, it starts talking about being caught in the whirlwind before it starts talking about size differences -- and the GM ruled in his favour, but what is the correct interpretation of this rule?