Hey all,
I am working on a classic (Knight/Knave/Spy)door riddle for my campaign. The party will enter a cave and be faced with three doors. Each bears the image of a Knight in plate mail. One bears a shield, One a lance and the third a sword.
The following will be read to them:
Harken now and take note as each door doth speak its quote.
One to safety and one to doom and one to either wealth or tomb.
Knight with Shield thus doth spake, Beyond me lies a path most safe
Knight with Lance towards the roof, then does utter: "The shield speaks truth!"
Knight with Sword in stance most bold,your path I guard the truth be told.
Which path would you choose? To ambiguous? any flaws in the logic?
I should add, the safe path leads out of the mountain and back to the where the pcs came from. The doom path... well you can guess, and the third path (of wealth or tomb) provides access to the dungeon.
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Great idea, I love these kind of logic problems. I am finding a few ambiguities with your riddle, though, but it may just be that I don't understand your situation totally...
1) The path to "either wealth or tomb" sounds to me that it could lead you to wealth--or your tomb. Does this path then count as dangerous? So if the Knight with the Shield is telling the truth, he could not hide the path to the dungeon? If the Knight with the Shield is lying, could he therefore guard either the path to doom or the dungeon?
2) I guess I'm not entirely sure what "Your path I guard the truth be told" means. That's the biggest problem for me. Is he claiming he holds the path to the dungeon--since that would be the PC's "your" path? Or does he mean your path as in, the way you just came? Also, since the middle knight has just spoken about truth, when you say "the truth be told," I immediately wonder if you are giving me a clue about how many knights are telling the truth.
3) Which brings me to my last point, dependent on your answer to the third--do you need to tell somewhere how many statements are true? Your riddle may be fine, but since I'm unclear on statement #3, I can't really tell.
There's a good chance I don't get these things because I don't understand exactly the context you are placing it in, but as an outsider, that's what strikes me.
I'd probably like playing in your campaign...I love puzzles.
Seems way too ambiguous. I can't discern much of anything about the nature of the three paths based on the text as presented. Two of the knights speak only about the shield path, and both agree that it's safe. The third knight's statement references his own door, but not whether it's good or bad or anything in particular; only that he's guarding it. So the shield path is safe, the lance path isn't mentioned at all and the sword path is "guarded". Sorry; I don't see that this even qualifies as a riddle yet. Kudos on the rhyming though.
Hey Calandra :)
Thanks for your input.
From my understanding of what you wrote on your first point, yes you are correct. if the shield knight speaks the truth he can only guard the path to complete safety.
For your 2nd point
The phrase: "Your path I guard the truth be told" is supposed to imply that he (the sword) is claiming to guard the path into the dungeon.
I think i need to emphasis it more or clean up the language then :)
Hmm at their basic level Knight/Knave/Spy puzzles rely on you not knowing the answer to your question "do you need to tell somewhere how many statements are true?" One has to be true, one has to be false and the third (the spy) can be either true or false. Does that help?
W E Ray,
no i don't use auto TPKs. i never use instant kill effects without half a dozen warning signs. Heck i don't even use save or die spells for my BBEG casters. I haven't picked a doom yet. But it would probably be on par with a monster a CR 1 or 2 above the party. That sorta thing. hard but survivable. or drop them into the dungeon inhabitant's .. well dungeon. If you catch my meaning.
Hmm let me remove the flowery language.
Shield: my path is safe
Lance: what the shield says is true
Sword: my path leads to the dungeon.
Now knowing that 1 must be true, 1 must be false and 1 could be either true or false..
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Hmm let me remove the flowery language.
Shield: my path is safe
Lance: what the shield says is true
Sword: my path leads to the dungeon.Now knowing that 1 must be true, 1 must be false and 1 could be either true or false..
Ah, okay--I'd never heard of it called a Knight/Knave/Spy puzzle, and I've done truth logic where you know exactly one statement is true, or exactly one is false, or something slightly different from your rules. So as long as that is clear to your players, then no problem there.
Now that I understand the puzzle, here's the problem I see with the logic. In a K/K/S puzzle, you have two possible outcomes: 2 trues and a false or two falses and a true.
So, Scenario 1:
Shield-true (must be total safety)
Lance-true (by default is the dungeon)
Sword-false (not the dungeon, must be the doom)
Or, Scenario 2:
Shield-false (not safety, by default is doom)
Lance-false because shield isn't safe (must be safety)
Sword-true (must be dungeon)
So far as I can tell, there are two possible outcomes. Either the Lance is the dungeon or the Sword is the dungeon, and there is no way to tell which scenario is the right one.
At least, that's what I get when I work it out--hopefully I'm not missing something obvious, or I'll be embarassed! :)
urk,
yup you're right there are two answers.. now that won't do.
hmm how to fix it.
urk,
yup you're right there are two answers.. now that won't do.hmm how to fix it.
It doesn't need fixing. If you can narrow it to 2, then one path is definitely not the doom, so you can go down that path, and if it leads out of the dungeon, go back.
hmm, i'm not sure i follow Ashkecker:
If they assume Calandra's solution #1 They will take the lance path.
Which if correct leads them to the dungeon.
But if Solution 2 was correct leads them out and safe.
If instead they arrive at Calandra's solution #2 they will take the sword path, Which is fine if they are correct. But if solution #1 was right then they went towards the doom.
Granted i can fudge the whole thing and make which ever one they choose the correct one, but that's always struck me as cheap.
hmm or am misunderstanding you
Also, if the party is not TOLD that there is at least one true statement and at least one false statement, then they'll only have what the doors say, and that would just mean door number 3 is "their path." Which the door just told them, so it's not so much of a riddle as a clever rhyme to tell them where to go. If then Calandra's illustration of Scenario 1 turns out to be the case, and they don't know that at least one door could is allowed or required to lie, then it's not a riddle, it's a cheap trick.
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hmm, i'm not sure i follow Ashkecker:
If they assume Calandra's solution #1 They will take the lance path.
Which if correct leads them to the dungeon.
But if Solution 2 was correct leads them out and safe.If instead they arrive at Calandra's solution #2 they will take the sword path, Which is fine if they are correct. But if solution #1 was right then they went towards the doom.
Granted i can fudge the whole thing and make which ever one they choose the correct one, but that's always struck me as cheap.
hmm or am misunderstanding you
I think what he is saying is they can determine the lance is not doom in either option. If the lance leads to the dungeon, great. If they take the lance and it leads out to where they cam from they could go back and go through the sword door to get to the dungeon.
I just love riddles so much I had to create an avatar to respond to this (my GM for 15 years have been dumping riddles on us for as long as I can remember. Worst thing is, he often has us completely stumped).
I think your problem lies in the fact that there is no way for your players to test their theories and logically deduce which one is which.
In the classic knight/knave/spy you already know the knight is telling the truth, the knave is a lying SOB and the spy swings both ways. So when you think you have a solution it is easy to test it.
You should probably dump some hints on them along the way (maybe in the hallway through pictograms or something) giving them knowledge as to which guardian tells the truth or lies.
Something along the lines of:
The guardian of the door to doom wants to doom them so he can go either way.
The guardian of the path to safety wants to, well, keep them safe so he tells them the truth.
And the guardian of the dungeon wants the dungeon kept secret so he will lie his ass off.
To make it a bit harder maybe the hints are in different places and perhaps require perception rolls of varying difficulty to find.
Make the Knights look different instead of a shield, sword and lance, give them a percetion check to notice that one of the knights has a symbol of Asmodeus on his belt, and another has a symbol of Iomedae on his belt. If they actively look for a mark, give it to them no roll.
It's a good puzzle. Very interesting Mr. Fishy may use that later.
Okay, i think i've got it..
Harken now! and take note as, each door doth speak its quote.
One path to safety and one to doom and one to either wealth or tomb.
Knight with Shield thus doth spake, Beyond me lies a path to forsake
Knight with Sword in stance most gracious, my path is safe the Lance fallacious!
Knight with Lance in tone most vicious your path I guard, the shield’s fictitious
removing the rhymes:
Shield: my path is the doom
Sword: my path is safe, the lance is lying
Lance: my path is the entrance to the dungeon, and the shield is lying.
thoughts? logic problems?
I believe this allows only one correct answer.
Goldi: i liked the idea you had, but i put the clues right into the riddle rather then have them elsewhere.
Mr. Fishy: ehh, that's too much of a gimme. reducing a mental puzzle down to a die roll doesn't sit well with me.
aww man, did i get dumped in a dead forum?
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I think it works this time. In case it's helpful, here's my logic:
If the shield is telling the truth, then he's the doom. Therefore, the lance is lying, so he isn't the dungeon. But since he isn't the doom either, he must be safety. The sword, however, says the lance is lying, which is true, so he's telling the truth and he's the safety. Doesn't work.
So the shield is lying. He isn't the doom. The lance is telling the truth then, so he is the dungeon. To be thorough, the shield must then be safety. The sword is lying--he isn't safe and the lance isn't lying--which leaves him to be the doom.
So I pick the lance.
The only thing I have to say is that be careful where you put and's. If I know that someone either always tells the truth or always lies, then I know that every statement they make is either true or false. They can't alternate true and false statements. But if you put in an and, then it becomes one statement, and if even one part of the statement was false, the whole thing would be false--even if the other part were true. The only part of your current puzzle that confused me was making sure that if one statement was true, I knew the other one had to be true also.
I hope this was even remotely clear. Bottom line, your puzzle works, as long as the players are clear on the parameters.
Cool idea, and I hope your game goes great!
Then don't give them a roll they only see it if they examine the statues and even then the symbols are a clue not the answer.
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I'd be tempted to make all three lead to doom, and have the dungeon entrance hidden behind a secret door or something. Teach credulous PCs to trust things chiseled into dungeon walls!
Out of curiosity, is there a reason this riddle is here, other than to challenge the players? IE, did the builder of the doors, statuary, riddle, etc. have a reason to put a riddle here, and give explorers a chance to avoid dooming themselves? Taken at face value, it would seem the riddle weeds out only the stupid and unlucky. If it was designed by someone trying to test potential intruders, and wanting the best of the best to succeed, then I'd accept it at face value perhaps. On the other hand, if the builder's intent was to keep everyone out of his tomb, then I would assume all three knights are spies, no matter what the words say. If I had to go through the doors, I'd use summoned monsters or controlled undead or something to explore each branch for a ways before I went down any of them.
Not a knock against the riddle itself--just thought I'd add an additional perspective to the riddle as a whole.
Actually, from the perspective of a builder wanting his tomb safeguarded from intruders, I'd be tempted to have the three knight doors lead to traps, a fourth cleverly hidden secret door lead to a really bad trap, and the actual entrance sealed and buried under the floor, requiring considerable physical labor to unearth. THAT will keep out the riffraff! If you don't want people entering your tomb, why leave a door leading into it?