My group is playing Red Hand of Doom using Pathfinder rules. They've encountered the half-submerged hydra. The Bestiary says that any attack not specifically intended to sunder a hydra head is assumed to attack its body. It also says that only sunder attacks will affect a head. Anything else goes to the body.
But the adventure says that in the deep water, the hydra's body is secure from attack.
The players are trying to use a scorching ray spell against the exposed hydra heads.
What result?
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My group is playing Red Hand of Doom using Pathfinder rules. They've encountered the half-submerged hydra. The Bestiary says that any attack not specifically intended to sunder a hydra head is assumed to attack its body. It also says that only sunder attacks will affect a head. Anything else goes to the body.
But the adventure says that in the deep water, the hydra's body is secure from attack.
The players are trying to use a scorching ray spell against the exposed hydra heads.
What result?
3 options as I see it
1) Strict RAW/Strict adventure. Can't target the heads. Body is underwater os immune to fire spells. Result: A lot of steam and an annoyed sorcerer2) Strict Adventure/Looser Rules: You can't hit the bdoy with a fire attack as it's under water. However, as you can't hit the body, you can go for the heads. Increase the AC as you're ttrying to hit a much smaller and more agile target and let them get on with it (My preferred solution for what it's worth)
3) Strict RAW/Loose adventure: The Hydra's body is not far enough underthe water to prevent the scorching rays fro mhitting it. Give it concealment to its AC and move on.
I'd favour 2 as it's far more dramatic and fun for the players. Recounting the time Bob fired a scorching ray and burnt a hydra's head off will keep them pleased for ages. That way when you do something REALLY nasty later they'll probably forgive you.
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Well remember that in terms of game mechanics, it's head and it's body don't exist in separate places in it's area. Think of combat more of being between big blocks rather then fluid moving things in a strict mechanical sense.
If part of it's above the water, the Sorc can certainly shoot rays at it. It's got necks and so forth that aren't "heads" to hit after all.
I would rule as Mr. Watson did. More concretely, I would make it a -4 penalty to-hit...effectively raising the ac by 4.
Effectively, they are making a called shot on the head. Since there are quite a few of them, and they are most likely whipping all about, I figure 4 points is fair enough.
RAW, they aim for the head and the damage goes to the body anyways.
Thanks for all the input, gentlemen. I did rule as Paul suggested, and independently also eyeballed it as a +4 AC.
Ravingdork, that's certainly a valid interpretation. I'm just not sure it's the most logical one. The body can either be hit or it can't. The interaction of the two rules shouldn't leave us with the hydra's body being in the box with Schroedinger's cat. It has to be hittable or not (or least, I won't be happy with a rule interpretation that refuses to explain that it's one or the other). Anyway, I think Paul's solution worked fine.
Ravingdork, that's certainly a valid interpretation.
It's not a "valid interpretation." It's the correct way of handling it.
Play it however you like, I doubt your interpretation will ruin anybody's fun.
The game system doesnt actually differentiate between body parts that way. When they say that any attack that isnt an attempt to sunder a head affects a body, they mean its primary HP total, not its torso. They dont mean the attacks have to hit the actual body of the creature. The game system has never differentiated between body parts when attacks are made, they are abstracted into hp. I would give the creature cover for being partially submerged, but its not immune to fire spells because it's half under water.
The game system doesnt actually differentiate between body parts that way. When they say that any attack that isnt an attempt to sunder a head affects a body, they mean its primary HP total, not its torso. They dont mean the attacks have to hit the actual body of the creature. The game system has never differentiated between body parts when attacks are made, they are abstracted into hp. I would give the creature cover for being partially submerged, but its not immune to fire spells because it's half under water.
Kolokotroni is absolutely correct.
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Hi Folks...
Good call, and the discussion has reminded me of something about Hydra's which has been bothering me for a while...
Does anyone else think that they are too tough for a CR4 creature?
A few weeks ago, my players encounted a seven-headed cryohydra (CR6)in a well known scenario. Out comes the mini, the hydra gets the initiative, and moves in for the kill. I turn to the Beastiary for a detailed look at the stat block, and notice that each head can breathe cold damage of 3d6 in a 15ft cone. Hurmm, that's 21d6 in a single attack which could (in this case)reach 2 PCs. Average damage of 73.5, but allows a reflex save for half of 36.75. Ouch. Party of 5x 5th level characters: only the fighter and the ranger have more full HPs than the half damage (other's are a sorceror, a druid, and a cleric).
Can you say TPK machine?
So, I fudged it spread the breaths around to avoid mayhem, and got a good long hand to hand fight out of it as they made sunder attempts to effect each head (as the rules stand). Still, the Hydra got multiple attacks of opportunity as no-one has improved sunder.
Great fight, and great fun (which is the point), but surely too hard for the CR as written.
What do other people think?
My group is playing Red Hand of Doom using Pathfinder rules. They've encountered the half-submerged hydra. The Bestiary says that any attack not specifically intended to sunder a hydra head is assumed to attack its body. It also says that only sunder attacks will affect a head. Anything else goes to the body.
But the adventure says that in the deep water, the hydra's body is secure from attack.
The players are trying to use a scorching ray spell against the exposed hydra heads.
What result?
In PF/3.X, the body typically sits in the space that the creature occupies (if a huge hydra, a 3x3 square). The heads are both in the space the hydra occupies (3x3) and in the threatened area (within 10 ft. of the 3x3 square). If the hydra heads are outside of the creature's space, you cannot choose to attack the heads (effectively attacking the creature's body) -- or attempt to sunder the hydra's heads -- outside the creature's space unless you have the Strike Back feat.
The hydra in this example is only half submerged (which I interpret to mean that at least some of the creature's space is above water). The error in the OP's statement is from the adventure, which says the hydra's body is secure from attack. If the creature's *entire space* is not submerged, it doesn't have total cover from the PCs. However, you must follow the aquatic combat rules in this case. The hydra may have improved cover relative to the PCs though -- particularly if the PCs are fighting from land. This gives the hydra big AC and reflex bonuses.
I don't know why, this is off topic but I want to point out that Hydras are acceptable subjects for Handle Animal skill in both the Pathfinder RPG and 3.5 D&D, at a penalty.
I can just see it now...
"Sit boy. Sit! Now roll over. Good. Good. Now, rip those orcs apart! Thatta' boy! Great job! Here's a treaty for me sweetie! You've earned it."
I don't know why, this is off topic but I want to point out that Hydras are acceptable subjects for Handle Animal skill in both the Pathfinder RPG and 3.5 D&D, at a penalty.
Damn, that's made of awesome!
What about, a halfling druid's circle that has a tamed hydra as guardian - and they can all ride it at the same time, one on each head!
Hi Folks...
Good call, and the discussion has reminded me of something about Hydra's which has been bothering me for a while...
Does anyone else think that they are too tough for a CR4 creature?
A few weeks ago, my players encounted a seven-headed cryohydra (CR6)in a well known scenario. Out comes the mini, the hydra gets the initiative, and moves in for the kill. I turn to the Beastiary for a detailed look at the stat block, and notice that each head can breathe cold damage of 3d6 in a 15ft cone. Hurmm, that's 21d6 in a single attack which could (in this case)reach 2 PCs. Average damage of 73.5, but allows a reflex save for half of 36.75. Ouch. Party of 5x 5th level characters: only the fighter and the ranger have more full HPs than the half damage (other's are a sorceror, a druid, and a cleric).
Can you say TPK machine?
So, I fudged it spread the breaths around to avoid mayhem, and got a good long hand to hand fight out of it as they made sunder attempts to effect each head (as the rules stand). Still, the Hydra got multiple attacks of opportunity as no-one has improved sunder.
Great fight, and great fun (which is the point), but surely too hard for the CR as written.
What do other people think?
In my experience hydras have been single PC death machines. They are supposed to be this dynamic encounter where players try to chop off heads and burn them before they grow back but the truth of it is that unless you lack heavy hitters in your party, its always easier to go for the body and just you know, kill it.
It does however have an ungodly amount of attacks, so whoever walks up to it first better have alot of hp or an excellent AC or both. A hilarious moment in one game was when a hydra was attacking the gate outside a building we were in. Me the slow moving paladin/cleric/ordained champion (this was a 3.5 gestault game) in full play spent 3 turns wadling down the stairs and out towards the damned thing. 3 of the spell casters starting hurtling hurt at it from the window, but the rogue/monk/swordsage who is ludicrously nimble and had half a dozen teleportation abilities, leapt out the window, ended up right next to it and hit it once. The hydra then having only a single target, and 12 heads killed him. 2 turns later, yours truly shows up buffed to the hilt (2 of the casters followed me down the stairs casting buffs on my slow moving full plated behind), charging smites the thing (this was for some odd reason an evil hydra, dont ask me, ask the dm), double crits and sends it into the next world in one hit.
Moral of this story is these things are crazy deadly untill the whole party is around it to split up its attacks. And in the end its almost never worth it to attack the heads. If you have more then 1 character capable of good amounts of damage, just killing it is faster.
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In my experience hydras have been single PC death machines.
Charm them, feed them, give them names.
-James
Ah... once my players had dealt with the Cryohydra, the cleric of Wee Jas (my PF game uses GH as a background) decided to speak to it's departing spirit, and convinced it that it should be reanimated to help the party. As it was only 5HD, his animate dead spell worked wonders... and 'Frosty the Zombie Cryohydra' was (un)born...
Oh, good times... Frosty blundered through the underdark like only a pet zombie hydra can, gumming all threats before him (it?) with his seven wonky bites and glassy eyed stares, and before eventually surcoming to a critical from the world's luckiest Kuo Toa guard.
Oh how my players mourned...
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Many posters in that thread echoed what we've also seen here: that ganging up, particularly from a distance, works well on these guys but one or two attackers up close could be in for real trouble.
Weirdly, in my example the Cryohydra was mainly brought down by a two-weapon wielding fighter, who severed 4 of the creature's 7 heads over about 5 rounds.
Mind you, he was lucky, as I kept rolling badly and only landed about 8 bite attacks out of the c. 30+ the hydra attempted in the melee. In addition, the sorceror and the ranger opened up on it at range, while the cleric poured waves of channel negative energy onto the creature(he has the select feat so ignored the fighter...).
So, perhaps we're right: gang-up at a distance, and be prepared for a a nasty breath attack. Resist Energy all round, me thinks, as it would protect from each breath attack.
More hydra questions
Regenerate Head (Ex) When a hydra's head is destroyed, two heads regrow in 1d4 rounds. A hydra cannot have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time. To prevent new heads from growing, at least 5 points of acid or fire damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before they appear. Acid or fire damage from area attacks can affect stumps and the body simultaneously. A hydra doesn't die from losing its heads until all are cut off and the stumps seared by acid or fire.
You can make more powerful hydras by increasing their Hit Dice—each added HD increases the hydra's statistics as appropriate, but also gives it one additional head and a +1 increase to its natural armor. A hydra's CR increases by +1 for each Hit Die it gains.
How long do the new heads last? In 3.5 didn't it state they lasted an hour then extra heads inexcess of the orignal number shriveled up and fell off?
If they stay why would you ever run into a 5HD hydra that has only 5 heads? If I was a 5 headed hydra and I knew I could have 10 heads by sundering some of my own heads of course I would. A little pain to double the number of my own attacks!
Ok, what is the maxmimum I can bump a hydra to? The rules state I can add +1 hit dice (which gives me a new head) for +1 CR. Can I add 10 hit dice and have a CR 14 Hydra that has 15 heads (well 30 once it sunders itself)? use to be capped at 12 headed hydras.
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Oh man, I didn't even notice people were claiming that hydras were too tough for their CR. I've been running Legacy of Fire and parts 4 and 5 have a lot of hydras in them. From what I've seen, hydras are incredibly weak for their CR.
There's a thread I made for it here, so I won't repeat it again. Suffice it to say that hydras just seem weak, and just going after it's main hp pool is so much more efficient than even trying to go after a head.
I will quote this bit from James Jacobs, it does help out.
The reason the hydra's CR is what it is is that it's kinda a broken monster. It SHOULD be higher CR with more hit points, more AC, better stats all around. What we have with the hydra as is is a monster whose damage output is VERY high but whose other stats are nowhere near what they should be for that CR.
What this boils down to is that if your PC starts a combat next to a hydra or within its pounce range and loses initiative, he'll probably be in a world of hurt. But if you can outmaneuver the hydra and stay out of range of its insane number of attacks, it can be a cakewalk. The CR is set more or less in the middle of the zone... too low for its damage but too high for the rest. It's a VERY swingy monster with a threat level that varies greatly depending on the setup.
This is one monster we should have probably just thrown the 3.5 CR out the window on and upped its stats to match its damage potential; We did this for the kraken, after all. We were just trying to limit the number of times we did that.
In any case, there's NOTHING wrong with adjusting a hydra's CR in game to more accurately represent the level of threat it created in your group. Just be careful using them. They may die fast, but if they manage to get up on a PC an make all their attacks, it can hurt!