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3.5/PF question.
From 3.5 Drow of the Underdark
GIFT OF THE SPIDER QUEEN
You can combine your racial spell-like abilities in new and
potent ways.Prerequisite: Drow.
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can activate any of the following spell-like abilities (using your class level as your caster level). You spend one daily use of each spell-like ability used in this combination.Blinding Vanish: You can expend one daily use of dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fir to disappear in a blinding flash of light. All creatures within a 20-foot-radius burst are blinded for 1 round; a successful Fortitude save (DC 14 + your Cha modifier) reduces the effect to dazzled for 1 round. In addition, you become invisible (as the invisibility spell, except the duration is 1 round per caster level)
Can a character use Blinding Vanish when an attack is declared against him to prevent or waste an attack? The rules seem very vague on when an immediate action can be taken/triggered.
Ideas, comments, answers?
Immediate actions can be taken at any time, even before an attack -- consider them the ultimate in readied actions. If the effects of the immediate action prevent the target from attacking, or make it harder to do so then that's part of why there aren't many of them.
As a DM you might want to allow someone who is doing something before an immediate action happens to change their mind but I wouldn't advise it... after all that takes away from the whole reason to have and use immediate actions.
From my reading, this changes the action needed to activate the SLA, but does not change the fact that activating the SLA will provoke an AoO.
It works like a quickened spell like ability, so I would think that it wouldn't provoke. No other immediate action or swift action provoke so I don't see why this one should.
If that's true, and it likely is, then the only way to hinder that immediate action SLA is to ready an action.
True, and that's at least part of why immediate actions are so rare. I can think of only two or three with ease:
Emergency force shelter, Feather Fall, and this one.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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True, and that's at least part of why immediate actions are so rare. I can think of only two or three with ease:
Emergency force shelter, Feather Fall, and this one.
Abundant step, the conjurer alternate class feature from PHB2. That it is an immediate action is the entire reason it is so OP.
Good one I had forgotten that existed.
also not strictly an immediate action, the AoO feat such as Evasive Reflexes (ToB), allow you to take a 5 ft. step instead of an AoO.
Hold the Line (can't remember where, i'm AFB) means that 5 ft. steps provoke as well.
so they charge you, you step back 5 ft, negating their charge.
or they 5 ft. step towards you for a full attack, you step back 5 ft, negating their full attack. they still have a full round action, but can't reach you, and can't move again as they've had a no-move action.
I thought I'd point out that this ability doesn't 100% "prevent or waste" an attack.
Pretty much it gives a 50% miss chance, or 25% if they have blindfight, since the square you were in is known.
If that wasn't obvious.
or they 5 ft. step towards you for a full attack, you step back 5 ft, negating their full attack. they still have a full round action, but can't reach you, and can't move again as they've had a no-move action.
I personally wouldn't use this approach to rules interpretation. There's nothing in the rules that says you must declare the full extent of actions before beginning them, i.e. if you have a Move Speed of 100, you can move down a hallway lined with open doors, and if you see an enemy inside one of them you should be able to use that move action to move thru that door to attack them (without beforehand knowing you would move thru THAT door). Likewise, if you don't NEED to make an explicit 5' step to avoid an AoO, you should be able to move 5' at a time towards your opponent, so if they use Evasive Reflexes to step away, I don't see any reason you can't continue your movement (making it a Move Action) up to your Move Speed (allowing an Attack Action) or even a Full-Round Run if you want.
Only if you explicitly made the choice that it was a "5' Step" (by avoiding an AoO, for example) would that option to extend the movement be cut off. In other words there are certain threshholds, the passing of which determines what something becomes defined as, action-wise - before that threshold, there's no reason to enforce an 'action declaration', it just reduces the fluidity and realism of the game. In the case the target steps back beyond 5' step range, they have still made a defensive benefit by dropping a full attack they would have taken to a standard attack. Likewise, if it was a charge @ ~1.5 movement, stepping 5' laterally could break the straight line disallowing a charge, but the remaining movement could be used to end up adjacent to them if you wanted. That's how I approach it at least. :-)
True, and that's at least part of why immediate actions are so rare. I can think of only two or three with ease:
Emergency force shelter, Feather Fall, and this one.
Shadow Cloak from 3.5e Drow of the Underdark. 5,500 gp for +1 deflection and 1 round of concealment or teleport 10' (immediate) three times per day. Redicurous.
Zo
If we're going beyond Pathfinder, the most ridiculous was the 5th level power anticipatory strike from Complete Psionic. It was an immediate action that let you take your entire turn.
I personally wouldn't use this approach to rules interpretation. There's nothing in the rules that says you must declare the full extent of actions before beginning them, i.e. if you have a Move Speed of 100, you can move down a hallway lined with open doors, and if you see an enemy inside one of them you should be able to use that move action to move thru that door to attack them (without beforehand knowing you would move thru THAT door). Likewise, if you don't NEED to make an explicit 5' step to avoid an AoO, you should be able to move 5' at a time towards your opponent, so if they use Evasive Reflexes to step away, I don't see any reason you can't continue your movement (making it a Move Action) up to your Move Speed (allowing an Attack Action) or even a Full-Round Run if you want.
Only if you explicitly made the choice that it was a "5' Step" (by avoiding an AoO, for example) would that option to extend the movement be cut off. In other words there are certain threshholds, the passing of which determines what something becomes defined as, action-wise - before that threshold, there's no reason to enforce an 'action declaration', it just reduces the fluidity and realism of the game. In the case the target steps back beyond 5' step range, they have still made a defensive benefit by dropping a full attack they would have taken to a standard attack. Likewise, if it was a charge @ ~1.5 movement, stepping 5' laterally could break the straight line disallowing a charge, but the remaining movement could be used to end up adjacent to them if you wanted. That's how I...
Maybe it's just our party but it actually helps fluidity if you say: i take a free action to drop my wand; move action to draw my weapon; no-move action for a 5 ft. step; and standard to attack, for example.
To clarify it makes things a lot clearer, granted, you can have an attack action, and decide after it's resolved whether to have a full-attack action or a move action, but that's not what we're talking about.As far as charge goes, i have to disagree. The charge action is quite explicit about how it happens: you move up to double your movement, then get one attack, i think it's pretty loose interpretation to say that you can have your move, then move again, then attack.
*edit* keeping in mind that the charge (and therefore movement) has been declared.
The feat 'Evasive Reflexes' main purpose is to avoid attack.
Maybe it's just our party but it actually helps fluidity if you say: i take a free action to drop my wand; move action to draw my weapon; no-move action for a 5 ft. step; and standard to attack, for example.
To clarify it makes things a lot clearer, granted, you can have an attack action, and decide after it's resolved whether to have a full-attack action or a move action, but that's not what we're talking about.
I don't see how any of that conflicts with what I wrote.
Free Action: irrelevant, Move Action to Draw Weapon and 5' Step: OK (but if after 5' of movement you spot something that makes you prefer to move further as a Move Action, why not allow that? Drawing the Weapon can still be part of this Move Action), Action Attack: OK since you have remaining Standard Action.So there would be practically no change to how you just described running things, that's exactly what I'm used to as well, with the only change that if after moving 5' I would tell a player if there is something new they couldn't see before (e.g. around a corner) and let them extend that 5' step to a full Movement Move Action if they want. Otherwise, they can proceed with a Standard Action as they please. The Standard Attack Action/Full Attack is just another of these threshhold events: if you don't need to move at all to attack, the decision to make your first attack a Vital Strike is that threshold because if it is a VS attack, you by definition made a (Standard) Attack Action and can't Full Attack, otherwise it is your choice to proceed with a Full Attack (making it a F-R Action) or make use of another convenient Move Action.
As far as charge goes, i have to disagree. The charge action is quite explicit about how it happens: you move up to double your movement, then get one attack, i think it's pretty loose interpretation to say that you can have your move, then move again, then attack.
Those are the very explicit /conditions/ for a charge. No declaration is required before hand. Example: You have Move Speed of 100'. You see Enemy 'A' 150' down hallway. You Move towards them 50', going in a straight line to qualify for a Charge. At 50' there is an open doorway, thru which 10' to the left is another enemy, Enemy 'B'. At this point, you have already passed the threshhold to establish you are making a Movement Move Action (more than 5'), but with the remaining movement within that Move Action you could move into melee range against Enemy 'B' and have a Standard Action to make a (non-Charge) Attack Action against them. OR you could continue with your movement in a straight line to Enemy 'A' and attack them as a Charge attack. Or you could continue your movement as a double Move/ Run, and turn around and retreat in the direction you came from.
The feat 'Evasive Reflexes' main purpose is to avoid attack.
As I pointed out, even if an attacker has enough actions remaining to extend their movement into a full Move Action and attack you as a Standard Action, Evasive Reflex DOES allow you to avoid their Full Attack so it IS a viable defensive tactic, it does negate attacks. Supposing you are at the limit of one of their Move Action's Movement and they have not fulfilled the conditions for a Charge, if you step 5' away they have no way to attack you and can only move 5' closer (as Standard Action) to threaten you.
Most actions characters would do ARE inherently threshhold-surpassing, and DO conform to the play-style you layed out, which resembles how I play as well, there is no conflict with that: you don't have to think differently about the action types of your actions, you can just state what your character does in the order they do it. Pretty much the ONLY things that are 'extensible' in this manner are standard attacks/full attacks (if other actions haven't been taken yet) and movement, which you can take 5' at a time and make choices when junctures appear. Pretty much the ONLY events that are relevant to these choice junctures and action extension are when /new information/ occurs /during/ the characters' turn/actions, e.g. seeing thru a door during their movement or an enemy moving as an immediate action which increases the amount of movement needed to attack them.
If a choice doesn't present itself, there is no reason to worry about that choice, and thus the action type is 100% predictable from the outset. That doesn't mean that characters should be restricted from making those choices which determine how to to extend actions when such junctures present themself, it just means that when these events happen which change the known circumstance, that you the GM can say 'hey, this is the new situation, how do you want to proceed from here?' without obligating the character to abide by the action typing of what they WOULD have done if said new situation had not presented itself, though they ARE obligated to respect all the action-type threshholds they have already passed (e.g. if they make one melee attack against an adjacent enemy, they can continue with a full attack or take a move action, but not do a Full-Round Withdraw because they've already passed a threshold that excludes that possibility. If you move more than 5', you have committed to at least a Movement Move Action, but could do a Double Move, Movement + non-Movment Move Action, Move + Attack, or Charge if you qualify). Again, this doesn't play out any different than the play style you described, except that it allows a CHOICE when new information presents itself.
"OR you could continue with your movement in a straight line to Enemy 'A' and attack them as a Charge attack".
And what happens if during your move (you haven't yet declared a charge) you move into a threatened square by an invisible opponent who has declared that they are set for a charge?
"Drawing the Weapon can still be part of this Move Action"
So the character has a move action, then takes it back to actually move, which allows them to draw their weapon as a free? That seems pretty loose interpretation to me. But hey, if that's how you play, that's fine, i'm not at your table. And it's not explicit in the rules that you have to, so i'm not going to argue it on the 'Rules Questions' thread.
But i stand by what i said about charge, that definitely doesn't seem right to me in regards to the intention of the rules.
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I personally like the Hesitate spell from the PHB2. Immediate action casting, but must be at the start of the target's turn, it limits them to move actions for 1 round/level if they fail a will save, with a new save every round. Dispels if you attack them, but not if your allies attack them. I end up using this on the party fighter when he gets bored during the role-playing sections of the session so that he doesn't kill someone and get us all incarcerated (or the dinner party incinerated, since my other option is Fireball).