Lawful Good


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


We just started playing the Shackled City (pathfinderized) and thought I'd try out a Paladin. I'm pleased with the amount of love Paizo's given this class, but having played rogues and rangers for most of my gaming years, I'm finding a lot of ambiguity with the code I have to follow.

Questions..

1) If we have a NE party member, can we work together to confront a greater evil, even though our motives differ?

2) Someone mentioned in a previous thread that lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice. This is intriguing tagline. Does this mean that someone like Batman would be considered lawful good?

3) Paladins are supposed to uphold law and order. Does this mean, you respect the laws of the land, or would a paladin of Iomedae (for example) follow her own code first and the laws of the society he's in second?

4) Is it my responsibility to bring ALL evil to justice, provided said evil has the capacity to understand good from bad and is not just some CE destructive force or LE opponent that is beyond redemption?

I think I have a good understanding of how to play this alignment, but there are a few gray areas I'm unsure about. Is it up to our GM to interpret these situations on a case by case basis or do most LG players see their code as fairly well defined?

Feedback appreciated. :)


What you are most likely to get by asking on the boards is the quoted text on "lawful" and "good" from the PRD (see Additional Rules section).

I suggest taking a look at that section of the core book and then sitting down and talking with your DM. Ultimately it is up to the two of you to work something out. Good luck!


1. Yes. Tough you will most probably need to keep a close eye on this "ally" of yours to make sure he does'nt stray.

2. Yes, Batman would be Lawful Good. He fights for the greater good, and to enforce the laws. He his lawful to his word and allies, has a code of conduct and does his best to stick to it. While some of his tactics might be considered "unsavory", he uses them out of necessity, since the villains tactics are way worse, the consequences of them winning much more harmful to society than anything he'll ever do.

3. Yes, the code of conduct of your god supercedes the code of conduct of the society you are in, in any case. If you are in a corrupt and evil society, no paladin will enforce its unfair and evil rulings.

4. Yes. But the greater good is always your aim. You have limited time and ressources, and should use them in the most effective and efficient way possible. This means choosing your fights, and possibly delaying bringing a minor evil to justice if doing so would prevent or hinder your efforts to stop a more powerful / dangerous evil. But when you have nothing more important or pressing left on your agenda, correcting that minor evil will come back to the top of the list of your priorities.

All in all, you are a champion of good and justice, but not a zealously blind idiot (unless you decice to roll your character that way). It is far too easy to manipulate righteous zealots to further the cause of evil. You can't afford that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

1) If we have a NE party member, can we work together to confront a greater evil, even though our motives differ?

Yes, but he'll need to conform as much as possible to your way of doing things, rather than you relaxing your standards to go along with his. The last paladin I played worked with an evil local NPC in defense of a city under seige; attempted to reform one of the BBEG's spies rather than execute her; and bribed a lich to stay out of the conflict (the bad guys had tried to coerce the lich to join their side, but our group nullified their threat against the lich.)

2) Someone mentioned in a previous thread that lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice. This is intriguing tagline. Does this mean that someone like Batman would be considered lawful good?

Well, yes, but I don't think of him as a paladin. Paladins tend to have high CHA which can help in having people think of them as nice; paladins are also often linked to the knight's code of chivalry, which reinforces that perception. But now all LG characters are even remotely paladins, and not all LG characters are conventionally "nice."

3) Paladins are supposed to uphold law and order. Does this mean, you respect the laws of the land, or would a paladin of Iomedae (for example) follow her own code first and the laws of the society he's in second?

Your code is almost certainly an idealized version of the laws of your society and strictures of your church. Ordinary citizens and lay people almost certainly get more latitude -- without being considered lawbreakers or sinners -- than you give yourself. In that sense you do hold yourself to a higher standard, but you don't think of yourself as above the law.

You are also aware that laws are made by men and men are imperfect so some laws may be unjust. You are under no obligation to support those beyond reason, just as a soldier in battle is only obliged to obey the "lawful orders" of his commander.

4) Is it my responsibility to bring ALL evil to justice, provided said evil has the capacity to understand good from bad and is not just some CE destructive force or LE opponent that is beyond redemption?

That LE opponent may not be beyond redemption, even if you personally can't manage it. Be aware of your own limitations, or face Superman's Dilemma. You can't be everywhere at once, and you will be overmatched by evil in some cases. Do as much as you can do and be content that the world is a better place for it. You are not the Savior of the World, so don't give yourself that burden.

Is it up to our GM to interpret these situations on a case by case basis or do most LG players see their code as fairly well defined?

Nah, ask 10 people what LG means and you'll probably get at least 12 answers. One of my litmus tests is: If you hear the phrase "justice for all" and consider the last two words redundant, you're Lawful Good.


Playing a Paladin is not nearly as hard as many people make it out to be. A paladin is a virtuous warrior sworn to uphold the laws that he or she has agreed to in their vows (thus granting them their powers). Currently the game is skewed to focus on playing generally good characters so that part is covered as well. As to your specific questions:

1. You can cooperate with a NE person to achieve a goal or overcome a greater evil, but then you should part ways. At the same time inner party conflict is likely as her/his methods are likely to conflict with yours at some point. This can actually be quite fun if both people get into their respective roles.

2. Being nice is fine, but certainly not required. You are first and foremost a warrior. You see the answers to things from that perspective. If you want to play a diplomat do so, but a paladin is a warrior through and through. I agree with Ainslan that Batman is lawful good. He does not seek to kill or maim without cause, but if provoked will set things right by force.

3. Your personal code and laws you set with your god are always first. Very often this will conflict with the laws of the land, but a true paladin will stay the course and keep his/her convictions.

4. Trying to bring all evil to justice would be the same as a police officer trying to stop all crime. It is impossible. While it is in your nature to want that, it is known to both you and your god that this is not possible. Your goal should be to seek out and punish those who do evil that stands out and your justice can serve as an example to others of what happens when they do evil.

Paladins can have a sense of humor, enjoy the pleasures of the moral world and still remain loyal to their vows. If you choose to be a holier than thou type that is just one style of play, not the only one.


1) Definitely you could work together with a NE party member to confront a greater evil, but at the same time you wouldn't stand for much of his own wrongdoings. You'd probably try to get him to relax on his evil ways and maybe bend more towards neutrality at the very least.

2) While others say yes, Batman is lawful good, I have to strongly disagree. Batman breaks a LOT of laws. Batman is a very strong candidate for Neutral Good if i ever saw one. He is all about putting lawbreakers in jail and upholding the law, but he's not above bending and even breaking the law himself to do it. He's DEFINITELY not lawful, although he's a paragon of good.

3) You'll always have to stay with your convictions, as the laws of the land vary from region to region or town to town. However, whenever possible, you will always try to follow the laws of the land wherever you are, as long as they don't uphold evil.

4) You will try to right wrongs wherever you can, and redeem anyone who is willing. How far and how personal your character takes it varies from character to character.

My sort of "rule of thumb" when playing a paladin is to think of him as a medieval "policeman". They can vary from lawful nice paragons of all that is law and good, to just a "beat cop" type mentality where they try to do the best job they can in this weary world. Others could still be very lawful and good, but still be complete jerks about it, even slightly corrupt, but still within the confines of law and good. (although that can skirt a very fine line, but very fun if done right) Paladins are not always perfect angelic paragons of good, they can have vices, flaws, esteem and morality issues, but mean well and always strive to try and keep on the straight and narrow and uphold their code. Sometimes a paladin, even while doing his duty and upholding his code, doesn't have to LIKE a particular course of action. Funny as it is to say, a large majority of police/CSI shows and movies can give great inspiration for paladin characters.


DM is the finally word. Mr. Fishy usual asks if your paladin is Lawful or good first.

As for the NE party member how would you know unless you are metagaming or your casting sense motive on him. Cast a spell on a person reviews that he is evil, but evil is as evil does. Casting a spell on an unwilling target could consider an assault. Two criminals deserve a trial and due process or it vigilant justice. Plus in a magical world a spell could disguise a villian to look like a hero or viceversa.

That said, if you see him commiting an evil act, you saw him. He gets a trial but...

Talk to your DM.

Alignments are OPEN to interuption, wayyy open.


Mr.Fishy wrote:

DM is the finally word. Mr. Fishy usual asks if your paladin is Lawful or good first.

As for the NE party member how would you know unless you are metagaming or your casting sense motive on him. Cast a spell on a person reviews that he is evil, but evil is as evil does. Casting a spell on an unwilling target could consider an assault. Two criminals deserve a trial and due process or it vigilant justice. Plus in a magical world a spell could disguise a villian to look like a hero or viceversa.

That said, if you see him commiting an evil act, you saw him. He gets a trial but...

Talk to your DM.

Alignments are OPEN to interuption, wayyy open.

More open then Mr. Fishy's interpretation of Spawner-hood.

Mrs. Fishy concurs.


Hello fake wife, strange that Mr. Fishy met you AFTER the Mr. Fishy Fan thread was over 500 post.


Mr.Fishy wrote:
Hello fake wife, strange that Mr. Fishy met you AFTER the Mr. Fishy Fan thread was over 500 post.

What is the fish equivalent of a gold digger?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mr. Swagger wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:
Hello fake wife, strange that Mr. Fishy met you AFTER the Mr. Fishy Fan thread was over 500 post.
What is the fish equivalent of a gold digger?

Goldfish...yeah know I´m bad...


Clark Whittle wrote:

We just started playing the Shackled City (pathfinderized) and thought I'd try out a Paladin. I'm pleased with the amount of love Paizo's given this class, but having played rogues and rangers for most of my gaming years, I'm finding a lot of ambiguity with the code I have to follow.

Questions..

1) If we have a NE party member, can we work together to confront a greater evil, even though our motives differ?

Yes, but you can't abide evil actions on his part. Exceptions can occasionally be made for the greater good, but you're walking a fine line.

Clark Whittle wrote:


2) Someone mentioned in a previous thread that lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice. This is intriguing tagline. Does this mean that someone like Batman would be considered lawful good?

Yes, batman is a good example of a lawful good character, since he always delivers his bad guys to the authorities to get a fair trial rather than just killing them. Not every lawful good character needs to be so nice, though. Paladins have proficiencies with lethal weapons for a reason.

Clark Whittle wrote:


3) Paladins are supposed to uphold law and order. Does this mean, you respect the laws of the land, or would a paladin of Iomedae (for example) follow her own code first and the laws of the society he's in second?

Paladins are only required to respect laws that are just. Evil, oppressive, unfair and unjust laws are things that Paladins should fight to oppose - never willingly support.

Clark Whittle wrote:


4) Is it my responsibility to bring ALL evil to justice, provided said evil has the capacity to understand good from bad and is not just some CE destructive force or LE opponent that is beyond redemption?

Paladins are oblidged to oppose evil wherever they find it, but there's many other ways to fight evil than by killing it. Redeeming a bad person is far better than killing them. This is part of the dilemma that every paladin must face, balancing justice against compassion and mercy. Just how many opportunities do you give a foe out of compassion before justice must be served? More importantly, what does YOUR paladin think about this kind of moral dilemma? You shouldn't go around killing everyone that sets off your detect evil meter, but then, you shouldn't always spare a villian to kill or hurt others again. This is part of what can make roleplaying a paladin fun, deciding where you stand on such issues. Do you feel entitled to "save" evil people or to smite them? Do you feel your first duty is to reform evil, saving violence as a last resort, or do you see yourself as the judge, jury and executioner, eager to meet out justice to those who deserve it?


Mr. Swagger wrote:


What is the fish equivalent of a gold digger?

Mrs. Fishy.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Lawful Good All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.