That is some funny stuff no wonder TSR folded
And yet within these guidlines, they produced planescape.
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I like this, from the comments;
"20. The quest for ever-increasing power, via murder and/or theft is assumed to be natural and admirable as a central motivation for any person of above-average strength, intelligence, wisdom, or dexterity."
Boy, it's a good thing that they had that prohibition against including any *real* magic in the books! Quick, we must defend the children against stuff that doesn't exist!
Who has the problem telling fantasy from reality, again?
I'm sure if it was re-written for today, right after the 'No Live-Action' rule, there'd be a 'No Furries' rule. :)
That guideline is definitely there to protect them from a 'maze and monsters' inquisition.
So on that level I can understand it. But that being said Im surprised they produced anything of value with that as there guidelines. I agree with some of the basic guidelines but, to use a cooking analogy, it sure removes most of your spice rack.
Two comments on this:
One - If you read the commentaries, Jeff Grubb commented on the code and points out an interesting fact - the TSR code was based on the Comics Code Authority guides. That actually explains alot to me - as D&D went through many of the "corruption of youth" protests that applied to the comic books trade in the 50's. So using it as a template seems a like a good reference in the pre-internet days. That both forms of media are for more open now doesn't change the fact that they had to follow a code to keep their existence viable for marketing.
Two - As Cain kind of referenced on Planescape when you stop and think of some the material they created, it's actually pretty amazing. I kind of liken this to watching old B&W movies in the 30's and 40's (which had to work under their own moral code - the Hayes Code) compared to movies today. There was a lot interesting ways that they implied or hinted at some things without being overt or in-violation.
Well...except that in D&D you had Clyde Caldwell and Larry Elmore painting some pretty hot babes for their books. Anyone remember Caldwell's Bikini Sorceress from the 2nd Ed. Players Handbook? ;-)
Two comments on this:
One - If you read the commentaries, Jeff Grubb commented on the code and points out an interesting fact - the TSR code was based on the Comics Code Authority guides. That actually explains alot to me - as D&D went through many of the "corruption of youth" protests that applied to the comic books trade in the 50's. So using it as a template seems a like a good reference in the pre-internet days. That both forms of media are for more open now doesn't change the fact that they had to follow a code to keep their existence viable for marketing.
I was going to say, many of these points are identical to what is in the Comics Code. Don't throw your stones at TSR. They were in a very defensive position at the time.
How did Dark Sun get published under these.
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How did Dark Sun get published under these.
People in hot countries are allowed to run around half-nekkid, and it's not the slightest bit rude. Normal rules are suspended.
Kind of how ladies will happily parade around in a bikini, but shriek like a banshee if you accidentally see them in their underwear. O_o?
How did Dark Sun get published under these.People in hot countries are allowed to run around half-nekkid, and it's not the slightest bit rude. Normal rules are suspended.
Kind of how ladies will happily parade around in a bikini, but shriek like a banshee if you accidentally see them in their underwear. O_o?
And the cannibal halflings?
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And the cannibal halflings?How did Dark Sun get published under these.People in hot countries are allowed to run around half-nekkid, and it's not the slightest bit rude. Normal rules are suspended.
Kind of how ladies will happily parade around in a bikini, but shriek like a banshee if you accidentally see them in their underwear. O_o?
ummm aren't ALL halflings cannibals anyway? Really what kind of lame games are you playing?
ummm aren't ALL halflings cannibals anyway? Really what kind of lame games are you playing?And the cannibal halflings?How did Dark Sun get published under these.People in hot countries are allowed to run around half-nekkid, and it's not the slightest bit rude. Normal rules are suspended.
Kind of how ladies will happily parade around in a bikini, but shriek like a banshee if you accidentally see them in their underwear. O_o?
Halflings are never cannibals, and I'm offended that you would suggest they should be otherwise.
That said, hobbits are notorious eaters of human flesh, as well as uncontrollable masturbaters.
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Two - As Cain kind of referenced on Planescape when you stop and think of some the material they created, it's actually pretty amazing. I kind of liken this to watching old B&W movies in the 30's and 40's (which had to work under their own moral code - the Hayes Code) compared to movies today. There was a lot interesting ways that they implied or hinted at some things without being overt or in-violation.
And honestly, I liked a number of the workarounds they came up with. Barbazu, osyluth, and gelugon sound much more cool and believable as devil names than just "bearded devil", "bone devil", and "ice devil", for example.
That said, hobbits are notorious eaters of human flesh, as well as uncontrollable masturbaters.
How can they tell that their food was an uncontrollable masturbator?
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Halflings are never cannibals, and I'm offended that you would suggest they should be otherwise.
ummm aren't ALL halflings cannibals anyway? Really what kind of lame games are you playing?
Exactly, they didn't eat *other Halflings,* but they did eat humans and stuff, which makes them not cannibals, but anthropophagic.
Totally different, and the Comics Code didn't specifically forbid anthropophagy!
I never got into 2 ed, and this is the first I am hearing about any sort of "code". It certainly never applied to any of the other companies that published back then. Vampire was very new and did not limit itself in anyway. And who could forget the original cover of the Rifts RPG? (I wish I could find a link, but I'm at work)
How can they tell that their food was an uncontrollable masturbator?
That said, hobbits are notorious eaters of human flesh, as well as uncontrollable masturbaters.
[lol]
If it is male, it generally is.
I have posted my unpopular opinion on these boards before, and will do so again. I would be happier with Paizo - or more specifically, Golarion - if the books avoided sexual themes. As it is, I feel the need to hide my Golarion books from my kids. I can't read them in their presence.
A few years down the road, it may become a bigger issue. If my kids show an interest in Pathfinder RPG, I might have to use only homebrew worlds and adventures. If I get them interested in Golarion, and they start flipping through some of those Golarion books, and see some of the material in those, I might get into a bit of trouble with my family.
I think that TSR was right to keep their material tasteful, and even to err on the side of caution. More mature material may be fine for a more mature audience, but what about children?
I was going to say, many of these points are identical to what is in the Comics Code. Don't throw your stones at TSR. They were in a very defensive position at the time.
I can certainly empathize with TSR's position, but I'm glad the Comics Code and the TSR Code are pretty much things of the past. There's no substituting an individual author/designer hashing things out with an editor or publisher.
I have posted my unpopular opinion on these boards before, and will do so again. I would be happier with Paizo - or more specifically, Golarion - if the books avoided sexual themes. As it is, I feel the need to hide my Golarion books from my kids. I can't read them in their presence.
A few years down the road, it may become a bigger issue. If my kids show an interest in Pathfinder RPG, I might have to use only homebrew worlds and adventures. If I get them interested in Golarion, and they start flipping through some of those Golarion books, and see some of the material in those, I might get into a bit of trouble with my family.
I think that TSR was right to keep their material tasteful, and even to err on the side of caution. More mature material may be fine for a more mature audience, but what about children?
I haven't seen as many of the Pathfinder books myself, so I'm not sure how sexual the themes are, but think about what your comparing it to. Sexuality or sexual themes are not ok, but violence is more acceptable to children? It also probably depends on how old your children are and how conservative you are, but if you do decide to play pathfinder with your children, you may just have to explain things to them. It's probably an uncomfortable can of worms to discuss, but it would probably be better that you explain those things to them instead of them finding out a different way. Another thing to consider is that, yes you may have to homebrew, or accept that maybe pathfinder's books aren't really geared towards younger kids.
I've never read a Paizo Golarion product with a sexual theme. Can you provide an example? If you mean acknowledging that meaningful relationships exist and that NPCs take part in those relationships well that's actually good for kids to read. What am I missing?
My first Golarion book (except for free downloads) was Burnt Offerings. The very first time I sat down to read it, I read the main villain's backstory, in which a man banged her up, and then left her, "calling her a slut and a whore." As the module progressed, it presented one NPC who takes her shirt off to seduce one of the PCs, wanting to get it on right away. Also, the PCs find a diary of one NPC which includes erotic pictures of the aforementioned main villain.
The Campaign Setting includes a picture of monsters (I forget what offhand) that look like winged, monstrous women. Topless.
Even in the case of the more tasteful mentions of sex, I just don't want my kids to hear about it yet. When we hear that the Prophecies of Kalistrade include sexual restrictions, or about the trysts of NPCs, I just don't want to have to explain to my kids what that means, yet.
When I mention this stuff, some people have responded "When you run a game, you can censor anything you want." True. But the problem is what if my kids decide to READ some of this stuff?
EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't mind reading this stuff myself. I just feel it's not for kids.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I've never read a Paizo Golarion product with a sexual theme. Can you provide an example? If you mean acknowledging that meaningful relationships exist and that NPCs take part in those relationships well that's actually good for kids to read. What am I missing?
Probably the most gruesome and not-for-kids example is the
When I mention this stuff, some people have responded "When you run a game, you can censor anything you want." True. But the problem is what if my kids decide to READ some of this stuff?
EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't mind reading this stuff myself. I just feel it's not for kids.
Then you have to explain things to them. Just like other things they can be exposed to. I'd be far more worried about whats on TV or movies then in a book. Kids are exposed on a daily basis to all those things we worry about them seeing. The only way they're not going to see it is if you keep your books under lock and key or well hidden. Otherwise they may or may not see what you don't want them to...and then its "lucy ju got some splaining to do". Which may not be such a bad thing.
Sexuality or sexual themes are not ok, but violence is more acceptable to children? It also probably depends on how old your children are and how conservative you are, but if you do decide to play pathfinder with your children, you may just have to explain things to them. It's probably an uncomfortable can of worms to discuss, but it would probably be better that you explain those things to them instead of them finding out a different way.
Yes, every time I state my views on the matter, I get a response like that one. On one particular occasion, I gave this response.
In fact, my mother has, on several occasions, criticized me for telling violent stories to my kids. When my younger child started to hit, punch, and kick other children, I actually stopped reading him comic books, for months and months. I have never believed that violent comic books encourage him to fight, but there are a lot of people who WOULD believe that, and I would hate for anyone to use comics as an alibi. I recently started to read him comics again, and I even use them as a reward. "If you can go the whole day without fighting, I can read you a comic book tonight." I don't know whether this approach will work, but it MIGHT.
It's funny because since then, when my younger child started fighting other children, I stopped reading him comics. Neither could I read comics to my older child in the younger one's presence, which made that older child protest and complain. Later, I decided that since my younger child stopped fighting other children at school and camp, I could read him comics again, even though he continues to hit, punch, kick, and wrestle his older sister. Recently, though, I began to re-consider this, as the fighting seems to be increasing. And this very morning, my daughter actually suggested to me that I AGAIN stop reading him comics! It's crazy! She complained about it so much the last time!
Okay, that was a long and irrelevant ramble. I think I'll conceal it under a Spoiler button. The main point is that I have already responded to Amael's question, so if you're interested in the answer, just follow the link.
Sexuality or sexual themes are not ok, but violence is more acceptable to children? It also probably depends on how old your children are and how conservative you are, but if you do decide to play pathfinder with your children, you may just have to explain things to them. It's probably an uncomfortable can of worms to discuss, but it would probably be better that you explain those things to them instead of them finding out a different way.Yes, every time I state my views on the matter, I get a response like that one. On one particular occasion, I gave this response.
** spoiler omitted **...
I understand your views, they're fine, even commendable IMO in how you like to handle your children. And though you wish the Pathfinder games would have more pg friendly content, it just may not be something that will happen. From what it sounds like, if you play with your kids, just play a different game like 3e, which has a more kid friendly tone (if I remember correctly...its been awhile). But as far as the kids are concerned, you can only control so much no matter how careful you are, and they can be surprisingly understanding about things too.
Aaron, I respect your wish to filter what your kids see and that's fine. More broadly, though, are you sure that it's the comic books that are making your kid fight?
I'm sure that it ISN'T. But I know some people who would disagree with me, and I would hate for some Fredric-Wertham-type to point to comics if my son got too violent. Like I said, I was hoping to double the "censor comics" trick as a reward - permitting him comics if he stopped fighting. Was that the reason he stopped fighting (outside his own family, anyway)? Probably not. I'll never know for sure. But I feel the need to try SOMETHING.
But as far as the kids are concerned, you can only control so much no matter how careful you are, and they can be surprisingly understanding about things too.
True. Maybe a few years from now, some new technology - or even an already existing one - will give my kids access to all kinds of stuff that will make all of my efforts at censorship completely meaningless.
And if that happens, then maybe I won't be so anal-retentive about censorship. But then I'll have an alibi. "Don't blame me! The kids already saw and heard about that stuff from far worse sources!" Maybe THEN I could show them Golarion material.
But until then, I need to make an effort. As an Orthodox Jew, I'm in a society that's very uptight about these things. I would hate it if someone first heard of Pathfinder in the context that some child learned about something inappropriate from it. I don't want some Pat Pulling turning up in my community.
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Aaron, I respect your wish to filter what your kids see and that's fine. More broadly, though, are you sure that it's the comic books that are making your kid fight?I'm sure that it ISN'T. But I know some people who would disagree with me, and I would hate for some Fredric-Wertham-type to point to comics if my son got too violent. Like I said, I was hoping to double the "censor comics" trick as a reward - permitting him comics if he stopped fighting. Was that the reason he stopped fighting (outside his own family, anyway)? Probably not. I'll never know for sure. But I feel the need to try SOMETHING.
Ah, OK, fair enough.
Blame me.
Good job TSR didn't publish C'thulhu then or Delta Green!
But as far as the kids are concerned, you can only control so much no matter how careful you are, and they can be surprisingly understanding about things too.True. Maybe a few years from now, some new technology - or even an already existing one - will give my kids access to all kinds of stuff that will make all of my efforts at censorship completely meaningless.
And if that happens, then maybe I won't be so anal-retentive about censorship. But then I'll have an alibi. "Don't blame me! The kids already saw and heard about that stuff from far worse sources!" Maybe THEN I could show them Golarion material.
But until then, I need to make an effort. As an Orthodox Jew, I'm in a society that's very uptight about these things. I would hate it if someone first heard of Pathfinder in the context that some child learned about something inappropriate from it. I don't want some Pat Pulling turning up in my community.
I respect that though. I think you have to try and there's nothing wrong with that. You're doing what you need to do. I come from a different background, so it's harder for me to grasp what social pressures you may have. I think Golarion would be right for them (in its current theme) once they're in their teens...then you can really have some fun with it. Either that or plan B: Blame Jack Chick.
As an Orthodox Jew, I'm in a society that's very uptight about these things.
Interesting then, that these guidelines would have barred large portions of the Tanakh, which contains a number of themes on par with anything in Golarion.
What's important is, we have someone to blame.
There's always a silver lining...
As an Orthodox Jew, I'm in a society that's very uptight about these things.
Interesting then, that these guidelines would have barred large portions of the Tanakh, which contains a number of themes on par with anything in Golarion.
Very true!
I'm not exactly the most devout Jew, and I do think it's ridiculous the way some rabbis condemn certain arts on grounds that would apply to Tanach.
Of course, since most children don't understand ancient Hebrew, it's easy for those Rabbis to mistranslate certain things to suit them. And they skip over some parts as well.
(Hoo boy. At one time, I resolved to steer clear of controversial topics, and here I am blasting my own religion. Ah well, at least I haven't written about politics or the edition wars yet.)
Well...except that in D&D you had Clyde Caldwell and Larry Elmore painting some pretty hot babes for their books. Anyone remember Caldwell's Bikini Sorceress from the 2nd Ed. Players Handbook? ;-)
Wasn´t that in the DMG, actually? BTW, if you look around on Clydes website, there are pictures waaay more cheesy than this - just look for "armed and dangerous". There are some definitely NFSW among his gallery, as well, especially some b&w ones.
Stefan
(Hoo boy. At one time, I resolved to steer clear of controversial topics, and here I am blasting my own religion. Ah well, at least I haven't written about politics or the edition wars yet.)
I want to make clear that, although my comment might be interpretted as a little bit lulzy, I didn't intend it to in any way convey disrespect for Judaism. Although I'm not Jewish myself, I have a great deal of admiration for the Jewish people, and what limited familiarity I have with the Tanakh is the result of my recognition that it is a fascinating work (of course, parts of it are a lot more fascinating than others).
Also, it's totally not my place or anyone else's to decide for a father what is or is not appropriate for his children. Parents have to reach their own conclusion regarding that sort of thing, and I completely respect the decision that you've reached regarding Golarion; there is some stuff in the setting that isn't appropriate for kids. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. My own parents were caught up in the anti-D&D craze of the 80s, and although I was strictly forbidden from playing, I had my first game at the age of twelve and have been playing ever since.
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I appreciate the situations that Aaron and others are in regarding mature themes in their games, but I'd rather NOT see any editing go on with the games. Maybe a little sticker on it saying "Warning! Mature themes present!", but don't change the game at all.
After all, we *do* live in a world where there are video games that are made specifically for adults, don't we?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I appreciate the situations that Aaron and others are in regarding mature themes in their games, but I'd rather NOT see any editing go on with the games. Maybe a little sticker on it saying "Warning! Mature themes present!", but don't change the game at all.
After all, we *do* live in a world where there are video games that are made specifically for adults, don't we?
I can understand where Aaron's coming from. There are some Paizo products that I would not share with my son but I certainly enjoy them myself. I'm still hoping for a Pathfinder Red Box/Book that is slightly more conservative so that I could be more comfortable giving him a shot at DMing.