There is a friend of mine who wants to play a fighter with two spiked shields.
How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?
And yes we know that shield mastery gives you an enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to the shield's defensive rating, and that this does not stack with the enhancement bonus on the shield spikes (same type of bonus). But a +2 shield and +1 flaming spikes would be rather nice.
And another thing, do you take weapon focus shield spikes or spiked shield heavy (or light if that's your choice)?
You enchant both uses seperately by RAW. Defence and attack.
Bashing property gives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage (or atleast did in 3.5, not got my book infront of me to make sure it carried over) aswell as the size upgrade.
Lots of talk has gone on however regarding 2 shield fighting which has divided alot of people.
A shield bash can only be used as an off-hand attack, leaving the question as to what kind of attack the main hand attack is.
By RAW wielding 2 shields doesn't work as i understand, but haven't read all the threads regarding this topic.
Weapon focus would be the kind of shield, choosing with or without spikes when you take it.
You enchant both uses seperately by RAW. Defence and attack.
Bashing property gives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage (or atleast did in 3.5, not got my book infront of me to make sure it carried over) aswell as the size upgrade.
Lots of talk has gone on however regarding 2 shield fighting which has divided alot of people.
A shield bash can only be used as an off-hand attack, leaving the question as to what kind of attack the main hand attack is.
By RAW wielding 2 shields doesn't work as i understand, but haven't read all the threads regarding this topic.
Weapon focus would be the kind of shield, choosing with or without spikes when you take it.
It is mentioned in a 3.5 FAQ that you CAN shield bash as a main hand attack despite the fact that the weapon entry describes shield bash as an off-hand attack. The weapon entry is in this sense actually a permission. As such, wielding two shields is possible. Not sure if it has been carried over to PFRPG tough.
For the weapon focus thing, it is quite possible, tough I would feel that you would chose category "light" or "heavy", spikes being only an option (don't see how it changes the fighting style). But I really have not idea about this.
Anyways, we really need an official "Shield fighting" FAQ, those questions pop over like twice a week, with official answers parsed to some of the questions spread all over the place...
There is a reason not to use 2 shields.
1st - It's ridiculous.
2nd - The bashing enchantment does not stack with spikes.
3rd - And most important, shield bonuses do not stack, so, he CAN use both shields, but he won't get AC bonus from both.
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There is a reason not to use 2 shields.
1st - It's ridiculous.
2nd - The bashing enchantment does not stack with spikes.
3rd - And most important, shield bonuses do not stack, so, he CAN use both shields, but he won't get AC bonus from both.
I agree with #1 and #3, but I think #2 is wrong. Unless it's specifically changed in PRPG, they stacked in 3.5 ed, for a total of 2d6 damage for a large bashing spiked shield.
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I agree with #1 and #3, but I think #2 is wrong. Unless it's specifically changed in PRPG, they stacked in 3.5 ed, for a total of 2d6 damage for a large bashing spiked shield.There is a reason not to use 2 shields.
1st - It's ridiculous.
2nd - The bashing enchantment does not stack with spikes.
3rd - And most important, shield bonuses do not stack, so, he CAN use both shields, but he won't get AC bonus from both.
I agree, too. Bashing does stack with spiked shield.
That being said, there are a few reasons to go this route, though generally not great ones.
You can double up on Weapon focus and Speciaization, and things. You can always be "armed", there are a few feats that focus on shields. If 3E material is allowed, there was a feat in PHB 2 that let you get TWF specifically with shields, and plenty more feats for shield fighting.
As for being ridiculous, I don't think so. No more than two short swords or the like.
Note that Bashing is a shield enhancement, not a weapon enhancement. Since you are not getting the AC benefit from one of the shields, it seems that you should also not gain the benefit of any of the other shield enhancements on that shield.
That means that, rather than fighting with two bashing, spiked large spiked shields for 2d6/2d6 damage, you are using a spiked large shield and a bashing, spiked large shield for 2d6/1d6 damage. That is an average of 10 damage, which is similar to what you could get with two weapon fighting with two one-handed weapons. Two long swords is 1d8/1d8 for an average of 9 damage, but you haven't paid the extra 4k gold to make one of the swords +1 AC and Bashing.
If you think that Bashing should apply to both shields, are you also happy with a wizard wearing two mithral bucklers (0% ASF, +0 ACP), one of which is +5 and one is +1 Heavy Fortification? The net effect is +5 Heavy Fortification (a +10 enhancement) for the cost of a +5 and a +6 enhancement (a 39% discount). At higher levels, we can even add Reflecting and Ghost Touch to essentially get a +18 equivalent shield for the price of a +10 and a +9, a 45% savings.
It is mentioned in a 3.5 FAQ that you CAN shield bash as a main hand attack despite the fact that the weapon entry describes shield bash as an off-hand attack. The weapon entry is in this sense actually a permission. As such, wielding two shields is possible. Not sure if it has been carried over to PFRPG tough.
As much as it irks me to say it, 3.5 is not PFRPG (it would be simpler if they did keep the 3.5 FAW compatibility as well). Our group does tend to use the old FAQ's when there seems to be some rules confusion and the RAW PFRPG wording BUT the Paizos crew has had several items/rulings in the PFRPG go against something that would be taken from the 3.5 if I am remembering the threads right. Basically just because it did work that way, doesn't mean that is how the PFRPG works. Basically until we get an "official" answer from Paizo it is up in the air, and play it how your group decides to. RAW says off hand only in PFRPG, someone did make a build where you could use two shields offensively by RAW. It required more than just the shield feats (it used the improvised weapon line to make main hand attacks) and is probably more expensive feat wise than most people want to invest for. Regardless it is still a very good theory craft exercise at getting the build you want within the constraints of the RAW rules. It is worth looking at if your friend is really interested in playing the character.
There is a friend of mine who wants to play a fighter with two spiked shields.
How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?
And yes we know that shield mastery gives you an enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to the shield's defensive rating, and that this does not stack with the enhancement bonus on the shield spikes (same type of bonus). But a +2 shield and +1 flaming spikes would be rather nice.
And another thing, do you take weapon focus shield spikes or spiked shield heavy (or light if at's your choice)?
I had a really long response to this but the forums ate my post. Short answer is no to both dual-wielding and bashing+spikes combo. Dual wielding isn't possible because a shield bash is always considered an off-hand attack in prpg and James Jacobs has implied that spikes and bashing shouldn't stack in this thread. (btw I know the OP IRL and will be playing in the same group as the dual-shield guy.)
There is a reason not to use 2 shields.
1st - It's ridiculous.
2nd - The bashing enchantment does not stack with spikes.
3rd - And most important, shield bonuses do not stack, so, he CAN use both shields, but he won't get AC bonus from both.
So what's wrong with number 1? Just that it's ridiculous? (agreed on 3, not on 2) That's not a reason to not do something.
How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?
You don't enchant the shield with defensive bonuses and then enchant the armor spikes with offensive bonuses. You can only enchant the shield (the spikes are part of the shield and aren't treated as a separate object anymore than the strap that holds the shield to your arm).
Luckily for you, you can enchant the (whole) shield with both defensive and offensive bonuses if you are willing to pay the price for it.
For example, a heavy spiked steel shield with a +5 enhancement bonus to its shield bonus AND to attack and damage rolls would cost 75,480gp and be treated as a single item for pretty much all purposes.
And another thing, do you take weapon focus shield spikes or spiked shield heavy (or light if that's your choice)?
You take weapon focus: shield bash, and it applies to any attack you ever make with a shield.
And for the record, the bashing property DOES stack with shield spikes.
People treating shield spikes as a separate object rather than what they really are (an upgrade/modification to an existing object) is in large part what contributes to the confusion on the subject. Shield spikes are no more a separate item than a weapon's masterwork property is separate from the weapon itself.
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How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?You don't enchant the shield with defensive bonuses and then enchant the armor spikes with offensive bonuses. You can only enchant the shield (the spikes are part of the shield and aren't treated as a separate object anymore than the strap that holds the shield to your arm).
Everything I've ever read about enchanting shield spikes says you pay for them separately, going so far as to say that just because your shield is of a special material doesn't mean the spike is too. You are right in that they are just lumped together as one item (you can't take the spike off and wield it separately), but you magic-up each separately.
Everything I've ever read about enchanting shield spikes says you pay for them separately, going so far as to say that just because your shield is of a special material doesn't mean the spike is too. You are right in that they are just lumped together as one item (you can't take the spike off and wield it separately), but you magic-up each separately.How does the Enchanting on this works. Do you enchant the shield as a defensive item and enchant the spikes as an offensive item? Or do you have to choose if the whole item (spiked shield) must be either defensive or offensive?You don't enchant the shield with defensive bonuses and then enchant the armor spikes with offensive bonuses. You can only enchant the shield (the spikes are part of the shield and aren't treated as a separate object anymore than the strap that holds the shield to your arm).
You misunderstood my meaning. I don't believe I ever said you couldn't enchant them separately. You can make your +5 spiked shield (defensive enhancement) into a +5 spiked shield (defensive & offensive enhancements) just as easily as you could make a +1 sword into a +3 sword.
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You misunderstood my meaning. I don't believe I ever said you couldn't enchant them separately. You can make your +5 spiked shield (defensive enhancement) into a +5 spiked shield (defensive & offensive enhancements) just as easily as you could make a +1 sword into a +3 sword.
Yes, but if you put spikes on a +5 shield, the spikes don't get +5 to hit and damage, nor do they overcome DR/magic. You can have a +1 shield with a +3 Defending spike on it. Likewise you can put a +1 Flaming Adamantine spike on a non-magical shield.
Spikes and shields are separate acording to James, just like a double weapon that must be enchanted in both ends. And that's why bashing does not stack with spikes. That's the way it's intended acording to James, and I agree with him.
But seriously, if you can't get the bonus to AC from both shields, what's the point in using one in each hand?
Spikes and shields are separate acording to James, just like a double weapon that must be enchanted in both ends. And that's why bashing does not stack with spikes. That's the way it's intended acording to James, and I agree with him.
But seriously, if you can't get the bonus to AC from both shields, what's the point in using one in each hand?
He wants to dual wield shields to get the most out of feats like weapon focus: Shield bash/spikes and weapon spec: Shield bash/spikes.
Personally I think this is a little bit silly and smells a bit like cheese, but to each their own...
Spikes and shields are separate acording to James, just like a double weapon that must be enchanted in both ends.
Still, anyone will tell you that a two-bladed sword is still just one weapon. That was the point I was trying to make.
Technically, a shield/small shield combination is a believable combination, shields are decent weapons...it just wouldn't be realistically effective because shields are heavy and SLOW.
As written, spikes and bashing stack. They are two different sources and both modify the effective size of the shield, with spikes changing damage type.
Spikes and shield are enchanted seperately. Yes, this means you can have a +10 shield with +10 Spikes, for 300k. If you allow two shields, you could have this on EACH ARM.
One of the poster's above was making the point that the reason you do this is so you get the extra armor effects possible on the shield. I.e. you wear one for the AC, and the other one for, oh, HEavy Fortification.
Note that if you have Bashing, your shield keeps a +1/+1 bonus if, for instance, you use the enhancement bonus on your Defender spikes for all defense, because the bonus is on the defensive part of the shield, not on the weapon.
An Uber Shield combo is a +5 Lg Shield of Bashing with +5 Defender Spikes/Razors. With Shield Spec, that's +13 to AC. With Shield Ward, that's touch AC. Add the Augment Gem of Missile Protection for another +5 against ranged attacks, AND missile deflection.
Thematically, I don't support making your shield your main weapon, you can get the same sort of size increases on yoru longsword if you try, but it IS the single best off hand weapon in the game.
==+Aelryinth
Technically, a shield/small shield combination is a believable combination, shields are decent weapons...it just wouldn't be realistically effective because shields are heavy and SLOW.
As written, spikes and bashing stack. They are two different sources and both modify the effective size of the shield, with spikes changing damage type.
Spikes and shield are enchanted seperately. Yes, this means you can have a +10 shield with +10 Spikes, for 300k. If you allow two shields, you could have this on EACH ARM.
One of the poster's above was making the point that the reason you do this is so you get the extra armor effects possible on the shield. I.e. you wear one for the AC, and the other one for, oh, HEavy Fortification.
Note that if you have Bashing, your shield keeps a +1/+1 bonus if, for instance, you use the enhancement bonus on your Defender spikes for all defense, because the bonus is on the defensive part of the shield, not on the weapon.
An Uber Shield combo is a +5 Lg Shield of Bashing with +5 Defender Spikes/Razors. With Shield Spec, that's +13 to AC. With Shield Ward, that's touch AC. Add the Augment Gem of Missile Protection for another +5 against ranged attacks, AND missile deflection.
Thematically, I don't support making your shield your main weapon, you can get the same sort of size increases on yoru longsword if you try, but it IS the single best off hand weapon in the game.
==+Aelryinth
According to the Psrd a shield bash is always considered an off-hand attack meaning that dual wielding two shields is a suboptimal choice since you will only be able to attack with one shield at a time.
psrd wrote: Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Also I don't believe you could stack the defensive benefits of two shields because you only have one "shield" slot for magical items just like you can only wear one suit of magical armor or one pair of magical boots.
psrd wrote: Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.
note that it specifically mentions two rings may be worn but no multiples in any other slots including the shield slot.
First of all I really don't oppose this as I see this as innovation and creative thinking. Which is good in my book, since the idea did not start as a cheezy rule breaking plan, but as a little joke. "Proper tank with two shields, most would get the idea at first sight". The feats was something that he was going to take anyway since originally the idea was a sword and board warrior. And he has always played the standard acrobatic 1 sword kind of character and wanted a radical change. From 1 sword to 2 shields is change.
Some of you stated that you must use shield bash in your off hand only.
So in other word if you don't have any weapons at all, only 1 spiked shield and you hit someone with it, it is still an off-hand attack?
I hope some of the moderators would notice this thread after a while to get some clearance on this. Because that really doesn't make sense. Then again it states: "You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield using it as an off hand weapon." By RAW it is not restricting you, it gives you an option. If it had been stated that you must use your off hand to shield bash it's a different thing, but the word here is can. And there is no point in the improvised weapon feats since a spiked shield is a martial weapon already.
Of course if you go by reality, fighting with two shields wouldn't make much sense either. But this is fantasy role-playing, if a warrior of some sort picks up two shields and bashes some skulls with them I really can't see the problem. You have much weirder weapons out there than a pair of shields. And to satisfy the lack of imagination on some of you: a shield does not have to be a "shield". How many times have you changed the look of a weapon or armor to have a different look that fits your character. The short sword is slightly curved, the shuriken is now small throwing needles etc... What if the shields where two big banded mail gauntlets that reaches all the way up to the shoulder with "shield-wings" on the elbow and spikes to attack with?
Its just one way of picturing this, and there is plenty more. But yes I will agree that the practicality might not be there at all times. Drinking potions or changing weapons is a heavy ordeal, it's still a move action to take them off and on, so in other words it takes his entire round if he wants to equip or loosen them. Also the shield bonuses do not stack, the enhancement bonuses do not stack etc.
And then raising of the "can you gain benefits from two magical shields at all" question. Well I have an argument for it and a solution for the argument against it.
There is no place that states (to my knowledge, please correct me if I am wrong) that you can wield two weapons at the same time and gain benefits from the magical abilities either, but that is a given?
On the other hand.
As it states in the beginning of the shield spike entry: "These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon" then you can enchant one shield defensively and one shield offensively as a weapon. I would believe that the problem would be solved on that part.
But seriously, if you can't get the bonus to AC from both shields, what's the point in using one in each hand?
He wants to dual wield shields to get the most out of feats like weapon focus: Shield bash/spikes and weapon spec: Shield bash/spikes.
And don't forget the Shield Master feat (the OP mentions it, but we didn't calculate it in the equation), which would allow for an additional +2 hit and damage with EACH Heavy Shield AND would negate the -4 hit penalty for wielding two One-Handed weapons...
Seriously, a character which can Dual-Wield two One-Handed weapons for 2d6 damage each, no Two-Weapon Fighting penalties, +2 ADDITIONAL hit/damage on top of that of Weapon Focus, Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, etc. ...is broken without comparison.
Even a character which can Dual Wield with a Bastard Sword and a Heavy Spiked Bashing Shield would be horribly broken as well - even with a -4 to hit in his main hand, he would end with a much higher damage than a similar character wielding TWO Bastard Swords (currently, the combination of weapons with the highest possible damage a Two-Weapon combatant could wield), since with two Bastard Swords such a character would have -4 to hit on EACH weapon, dealing 1d10 with each of them.
The answer of James is the most reasonable way to dealing with this situation IMHO - even if this would need an additional errata in the rules.
Greetings, I am the DM for this campain, and will in the end have the final say, I guess.
I have talked extensively with several members of the gaming group, with as varied and plentiful arguments as I am reading here. But I just came off the phone with the player, and think we have found a solution.
Wielding two shields would in theory work, sure, though the "main hand" shield would be referred to as a martial weapon, and ONLY a weapon. You would not gain any benefit from shield-specific feats apart from the Focus/Spec tree, and would forfeit any shield-type enchantments (among them "Bashing") since you only have one shield _slot_. Just like you could wear three belts, but would only benefit from one.
So we have more or less agreed to let this one slide, and focus on a viable alternative that will make the most out of his strained feat budget without allowing for cheese: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning from PHB2, and a Warhammer for weapon. Since shield bash is a bludgeoning weapon, he will get the benefit from focus/spec on both hands, like any other focused dual-wielder, and be able to keep up the shield use to full effect.
Since James indicate that "Bashing" was not intended to make a spiked heavy shield into a veritable greatsword, I will honor that, and restrict that enchantment to regular shield bashes. It will still be an off-hand that deals 1d8 with quite a lot of pluses both to hit and damage down the road, so I think the player in question and the rest of the group should be satisfied.
Good going.
As intended the book is a set of guidelines which you can change however you see fit to bring enjoyment to the game you are either running or taking part in.
Greetings, I am the DM for this campain, and will in the end have the final say, I guess.
I have talked extensively with several members of the gaming group, with as varied and plentiful arguments as I am reading here. But I just came off the phone with the player, and think we have found a solution.
Wielding two shields would in theory work, sure, though the "main hand" shield would be referred to as a martial weapon, and ONLY a weapon. You would not gain any benefit from shield-specific feats apart from the Focus/Spec tree, and would forfeit any shield-type enchantments (among them "Bashing") since you only have one shield _slot_. Just like you could wear three belts, but would only benefit from one.
So we have more or less agreed to let this one slide, and focus on a viable alternative that will make the most out of his strained feat budget without allowing for cheese: Melee Weapon Mastery: Bludgeoning from PHB2, and a Warhammer for weapon. Since shield bash is a bludgeoning weapon, he will get the benefit from focus/spec on both hands, like any other focused dual-wielder, and be able to keep up the shield use to full effect.
Since James indicate that "Bashing" was not intended to make a spiked heavy shield into a veritable greatsword, I will honor that, and restrict that enchantment to regular shield bashes. It will still be an off-hand that deals 1d8 with quite a lot of pluses both to hit and damage down the road, so I think the player in question and the rest of the group should be satisfied.
This is how I would rule it as well, although the Melee mastery: Bludgeoning prohibits the use of a spiked shield, it will work with a magical bashing shield.