Hi guys - I'm a complete newbie to Pathfinder, creating a dwarven ranger PC at 8th level (the group I'll be a part of is 8th level). Like most people, I want to create something slightly different - at the very least for variety's sake.
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on why there is no two-handed version of a dwarven waraxe? I'm aware you can just make a large version (one-handed becomes two-handed, -2 on attack roll, 1d10 damage moves up to 2d8), but I was interested in what everyone's opinion of the stats for a real two-handed dwarven waraxe would be (without the -2 to hit). Of course, damage of 1d12 would just make it a greataxe, so that's kind of pointless, and damage of 2d8 with no -2 penalty is unbalanced - any opinions?
I tried searching through the messageboards myself but couldn't find any mention of this idea - thanks for any and all input!
uhmmm the dwarven war axe is a martial two-handed weapon or an exotic 1 handed weapon... a axe that can only be used two handed would just be a great axe.
So a 'Dwarven' Greataxe, extra big that only dwarves can use without exotic weapon proficiency?... That's not really what exotic weapons are for in general. They typically require special technique, and do less damage than the biggest two-handed martial weapons.
For what it's worth, I think it's very unlikely you'll find a Large Dwarven Waraxe... :)
Should such a thing exist, it should probably do 1d14 (or 2d6 perhaps), as a half-step up from 1d12.
Check with your DM, but if you wanted a bigger, beefier weapon you could do a larger version of the Urgrosh that has a normal Spearhead on one end and a Dwarven Waraxe on the other. My guess is that for balance reasons it would cost you an Exotic weapon proficiency, though.
stats would be along the lines of:
Dire Urgrosh, dwarven 100 gp 1d10/1d8 ×3 — 20 lbs. P or S brace, double
That's not really what exotic weapons are for in general. They typically require special technique, and do less damage than the biggest two-handed martial weapons.
I disagree about them doing less damage. for one handed weapons, the bastard sword and dwarven axe are absolutely prime. For light weapons, none can match the longsword-like stats of the Sawtooth sabre.
And in 3.5, the Goliath Greathammer did 1d12, and the dwarven warpike did 2d6, both exotic weapons that did alot of damage AND had other extraordinary features.
Not trying to start a problem, but I have always understood Exotic weapons as bigger bruisers, but at the cost of a feat.
Exotics typically come in a variety of flavors.
Monk weapons - basically subpar but can be flurried
Double Weapons - Okay mechanically especially in conjunction with weapon specialization trees but for the most part people dislike them
Improved One Handed Weapons - Basically longsword or battle axe ++
Wierd Weapons - Spiked Chain, Whip
Later 3.x products and Pathfinder have introduced 2-hander ++ weapons like the elven curve blade which is basically a up-modded falchion (already an overpowered weapon). I think these weapons set a bad precedence but that's neither here nor there. IMC I'd actually make the curve blade an upmodded scimitar (1hand d8 18-20/x2) turning it into a bastard sword analog.
However if you are absolutely committed to a exotic 2hand template the way you'd do it is as follows.
The bastard sword is effectively a Large Longsword without the penalties to hit. What you are making is a Large Greataxe without penalties to hit.
Large Great Axe is a 2hand 3d6 x3 weapon. Personally I think this weapon is overpowered and would go with the Maul precedent (-1 to hit). I would never make this a racial weapon but Elven Curveblade pretty much defeats any sort of design logic already so YMMV.
Thanks for all your input guys - this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for - everyone has different viewpoints, all of them valid.
Vuron, you illuminated the whole idea very well for me, but I think 3d6 damage would be significantly overpowered - the damage Majuba mentioned (1d14 or 2d6, keeping the x3 crit) is pretty much what I was aiming at (with no minus to hit). That way I (as a dwarf) could have a unique two-handed weapon that isn't necessarily superior to a greatsword, and yet because it's exotic, not everyone in the game is going to spend a feat to use it. I just wanted an alternative to avoid jumping on the greatsword bandwagon (highest average for non-crit damage among two-handed weapons) like a lot of PC's do.
|
Thanks for all your input guys - this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for - everyone has different viewpoints, all of them valid.
Vuron, you illuminated the whole idea very well for me, but I think 3d6 damage would be significantly overpowered - the damage Majuba mentioned (1d14 or 2d6, keeping the x3 crit) is pretty much what I was aiming at (with no minus to hit). That way I (as a dwarf) could have a unique two-handed weapon that isn't necessarily superior to a greatsword, and yet because it's exotic, not everyone in the game is going to spend a feat to use it. I just wanted an alternative to avoid jumping on the greatsword bandwagon (highest average for non-crit damage among two-handed weapons) like a lot of PC's do.
So why not just wield a greataxe?
falchion (already an overpowered weapon)
Somewhat off-topic:
How is the falchion overpowered when greatswords deal more damage?
With +10 bonus damage and a 50% chance to hit, the falchion does 8.625 average damage and the greatsword deals 9.35 average damage.
With +4 damage and a 75% chance to hit, the falchion deals 7.7625 average damage and the greatsword deals 9.075 average damage.
With +10 damage and a 75% chance to hit, the falchion deals 12.9375 average damage and the greatsword deals 14.025 average damage.
The +2 average damage from 2d6 vs 2d4 is a difference than an extra +1 crit range doesn't overcome directly until you get to pretty absurd levels of bonus damage and hit chance combined.
Falchions are better for anything that relies on more frequent critical hits (such as the new critical feats), but greatswords are almost always better for raw damage and are no slouch at generating crits, either.
You could always just suck up the penalty. Or, revise the 3.5 feat Monkey grip to give you a -1 penalty instead of -2. (In 3.5, the penalty for using an inappropriately sized weapon was -4, and the feat reduced it to -2. Thus, with the penalty being -2, it would be logical to make the feat reduce it to -1.)
Thanks for all your input guys - this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for - everyone has different viewpoints, all of them valid.
Vuron, you illuminated the whole idea very well for me, but I think 3d6 damage would be significantly overpowered - the damage Majuba mentioned (1d14 or 2d6, keeping the x3 crit) is pretty much what I was aiming at (with no minus to hit). That way I (as a dwarf) could have a unique two-handed weapon that isn't necessarily superior to a greatsword, and yet because it's exotic, not everyone in the game is going to spend a feat to use it. I just wanted an alternative to avoid jumping on the greatsword bandwagon (highest average for non-crit damage among two-handed weapons) like a lot of PC's do.
You can always use as a baseline the Fullblade from the Arms and Equipment 3.0 manual (it was also present in the Sword and Fist manual, but without the errata which came later the weapon was useless), which was indicated as a Huge weapon that could be used two-handed by Medium-sized creatures.
Translated in 3.5/ Pathfinder, the Fullblade would be an exotic Large Bastard Sword with a hilt which allows smaller creatures (Medium-sized, in this case) to wield it without the usual -2 to hit, but only two-handed (and only with the feat Exotic Weapon Prof.). A Large creature can wield it just as a Medium-sized creature could wield a Bastard Sword (two-handed as a martial weapon, one-handed as an exotic weapon). Statistics are the same as for a Large Bastard Sword (2d8, 19-20x2).
Now, obviously such a weapon IS strange indeed - basically, it is a 'Bastard Sword Plus' without any penalty. Creatures of the 'right' size would have no particular benefits wielding a Fullblade over a Bastard Sword; however, smaller creatures would obviously choose the Fullblade over the Bastard Sword for raw damage, since they would not have the usual -2 to hit for wielding an oversized weapon - of course, the feat should not be considered akin to Exotic W.Prof. Bastard Sword (despite the similitude of the weapon), or such a character could also benefit taking regular Bastard Swords (for sword'n board) with the same proficiency feat.
If you have no qualms with the weirdness above, however, you could go for a 'Fullaxe' and make it (2d8,x3), with the same rules as above (two-handed with the feat for Medium creatures, two-handed as a martial weapon or one-handed with the feat for Large creatures).
Just my 2c.
I just wanted an alternative to avoid jumping on the greatsword bandwagon (highest average for non-crit damage among two-handed weapons) like a lot of PC's do.So why not just wield a greataxe?
I agree with LastKnightLeft's line of questioning, though I will also point out the Earthbreaker from either the 'Rise of the Runelords' or 'Curse of the Crimson Throne' Player's Guides, both available for FREE download here at Paizo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Earthbreaker - 40gp/ 1d10(s)/ 2d6(m)/ ×3/ 14lb./ Bludgeoning
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Earthbreaker meets all your specifications(I think) and is in the rules already... Dwarf-like flavor/style(2-handed warhammer in a sense), 2d6 damage, x3 crit like an Axe, 2-handed WITHOUT being a Greatsword, non-exotic.
Exotic weapons for the most part take an existing weapon and add one 'thing' to it.
Bastard Swords are longswords who damage die has been bumped one for example.
Great bows are longbows who damage die has been bumped up one and range slightly increase.
If you wanted a 'Dwarven WarGreataxe' Just take the Greataxe and boost the threat range to 19-20.
So 2 handed, 1d12 damage, 19-20/x3. Exotic Weapon. Simple. You have boosted the threat range one 'thing'.
See if your ref will go for it.
|
Nicht- do you mind if I ask why you feel that a unique weapon must also have unique metagame stats?
There's nothing wrong with using the Greataxe or Dwarven Waraxe stats and describing it slightly differently, and I think that the marriage many gamers have between different stats/mechanics and the thing actually being different hampers a lot of roleplaying opportunities.
If you break down the components of a weapon group, using their average damage as a base and then assigning a point value to things like extended crit range, higher crit modifier, trip, et cetera, you wind up with a fairly narrow range of points for a given weapon group. I did this to make a custom weapon for a player in one of my groups, which ended up working pretty well for us.
I can't remember the specifics, but as an example, all of the Martial 2h weapons are within 1/2 of a point of an average value in the system that I devised except the Greatsword and the Greatclub, which were 2 points above and below that average respectively.
I'm about to leave work and go play my CoT game, but if I remember later on I'll post more on what I learned later.
|
|
Exotic weapons for the most part take an existing weapon and add one 'thing' to it.
Bastard Swords are longswords who damage die has been bumped one for example.
Great bows are longbows who damage die has been bumped up one and range slightly increase.If you wanted a 'Dwarven WarGreataxe' Just take the Greataxe and boost the threat range to 19-20.
So 1d12 damage, 19-20/x3. Exotic Weapon. Simple. You have boosted the threat range one 'thing'.
See if your ref will go for it.
Bumping longswords to bastard swords takes it from martial to exotic, requiring a feat. Bumping an already exotic weapon to make it better adds power to the item with no extra drawback.
Apply the same reasoning to a normal Battleaxe and I think you'll find it's a lot more balanced.
Oh wait, that's just a Dwarven Waraxe. I think we may have just stumbled upon the best solution: wield a Dwarven Waraxe with both hands and call it a day.
Exotic weapons for the most part take an existing weapon and add one 'thing' to it.
Bastard Swords are longswords who damage die has been bumped one for example.
Great bows are longbows who damage die has been bumped up one and range slightly increase.If you wanted a 'Dwarven WarGreataxe' Just take the Greataxe and boost the threat range to 19-20.
So 1d12 damage, 19-20/x3. Exotic Weapon. Simple. You have boosted the threat range one 'thing'.
See if your ref will go for it.
Bumping longswords to bastard swords takes it from martial to exotic, requiring a feat. Bumping an already exotic weapon to make it better adds power to the item with no extra drawback.
Apply the same reasoning to a normal Battleaxe and I think you'll find it's a lot more balanced.
Oh wait, that's just a Dwarven Waraxe. I think we may have just stumbled upon the best solution: wield a Dwarven Waraxe with both hands and call it a day.
he is not bumping the dwarven war axe (an exotic weapon) though, he is bumping the great axe, a martial weapon and making it exotic... which seems to fall right in line with how it should be done, if you are into doing such a thing.
The Earthbreaker meets all your specifications(I think) and is in the rules already... Dwarf-like flavor/style(2-handed warhammer in a sense), 2d6 damage, x3 crit like an Axe, 2-handed WITHOUT being a Greatsword, non-exotic.
I've played in games where we used 'weapon group' proficiency, so in addition to the "Dwarven Racial Weapon Group" (Battle Axe, Heavy Picks, War Hammer), I chose a "Martial Dwarven Group" (I was a full Cleric) which included Throwing Axe, Hand Axe, Great Axe, Dwarven War Axe (2h), War Hammer, and Great Hammer/ Earthbreaker. Worked out great.
my guess is the OP wants a Massive Shiny Leet Badass Mary Sue Uber Axe that he can use as a dwarf without spending a feat.
if he wants such a weapon, he has to spend a feat. i trust this is a desire for a special power that i'm sure the rest of the group doesn't have. just use a darn greataxe already, if you really want "special" stats for a "special" axe, there are plenty of 3rd party options, just politely ask your dm. but please don't cry if he slaps you across the temple with the core rulebook. i got slapped by one in the same way a few times too. i will not contribute stats for this "special weapon", but i will say, search through any available books for something close to what you want. i hate settling too, but i have done it in the past. several times i asked to play a Tian-Min, a Keleshite, or even a Vudrani and my dm slapped me with one of his books and told me, "why won't you just play a Chelexian or a Taldorian?"
he is not bumping the dwarven war axe (an exotic weapon) though, he is bumping the great axe, a martial weapon and making it exotic... which seems to fall right in line with how it should be done, if you are into doing such a thing.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was interested in. And after reading through all of the varied perspectives in this thread, I think I know why a two-handed dwarven waraxe was not supplied in the Pathfinder core rulebook - because dwarves already get one fantastic one-handed weapon.
I'm not interested in using a double weapon so I haven't really thought about the pros or cons of the urgrosh, but I know for sure that the dwarven waraxe as it stands now is a pretty great one-handed weapon. Even though a two-handed version *could* exist in the dwarven fantasy world, actually making such a weapon available in the game would be sort of an unfair advantage for a PC choosing the dwarven race (assuming its stats were clearly better than a greataxe as the dwarven waraxe is better than a battleaxe). So in the interest of game balance, a two-handed version of the dwarven waraxe is not listed in table 6-4, and rightfully so.
But after Daniel Moyer pointed out the 'Earthbreaker' to me, my interest in creating a two-handed dwarven waraxe is a moot point:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Earthbreaker - 40gp/ 1d10(s)/ 2d6(m)/ ×3/ 14lb./ Bludgeoning
-------------------------------------------------------------------The Earthbreaker meets all your specifications(I think) and is in the rules already... Dwarf-like flavor/style(2-handed warhammer in a sense), 2d6 damage, x3 crit like an Axe, 2-handed WITHOUT being a Greatsword, non-exotic.
This is just what I was looking for - better actually, because my ranger is going to have undead as his first favored enemy, and a blunt weapon will work great against skeletons and liches! Also, the whole 2-handed warhammer idea fits perfectly with a dwarven character - thanks for the heads-up Daniel!
Thanks especially to everyone who chimed in on this thread - like I said before, this was exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. Thank the ancestors for messageboards
This is just what I was looking for - better actually...
Glad to help, our group saw the Earthbreaker back during Pathfinder Beta, it fills the hole that the Greatclub fails to. Even though it didn't make it into the PF CORE, our group has given it a permanent home at our table.
The weapon is actually Shoanti in origin, but it fits into Dwarven culture well enough with their hammers and axes.
Whether or not you agree with me, I feel that if you are recieving a special weapon, especially a dwarven one, maybe each race should recieve a special weapon (i.e., halflings have slingstaves, elves make blade bow, gnomes get...uhh... alchemical item slingshot? This sort of thing)
An exotic Greataxe would indeed be 20/x4, 20. 19-20/x3 is the mathematical equivalent of 20/x5, which is clearly overpowered for an exotic feat.
==Aelryinth