Hi there! I’m firmly in the camp that believes there are problems with the existing barbarian as presented by PF. It didn’t go far enough and it’s weak for the effort. This is an attempt to correct that. Any not of the opinion – do not spew your vitriol in here, please. It’s a work in progress and this is the first draft, so all criticisms are welcome – just not into spewing garbage for the sake of it.
Design Philosophy going in:
1) Barbarians are all about their rage ability – it defines them and carries them though. This must become even MORE significant itself (vs. rage powers).
2) PF dropped the ball on the Barbarian upgrades. It got nerfed HARD after Beta, and it’s reeling in recovery. I’m going to attempt to put it back where it *should* have been and/or to scale with the other melee classes.
3) Barbarian key identification qualities are: tough/durable, outrageous strength and damage dealing capacity, and fast reactions – in that order.
4) More can be added to make the class “fun” vs. worrisome. Bonus HP will disappear. Yes, this is part of the long-standing barbarian thing, but as rage gets better and more hp creep in, more damage tends to be taken and the barbarian will get hosed when coming out of his rage. {by hosed I mean killed}. It’s, quite frankly, NOT fun to have that sort of worry with a key and defining class feature in play. There are ways to fix it, and I will – no more sacred cow.
5) Speaking of sacred cows – say good bye to the idea of a barbarian with a sixth sense for danger. It’s an old artifact and really does nothing to highlight features of the class and what it’s capable of, so, “Good bye, Trap Sense – you’ll not be missed!”
I’ll be messing around w/rage powers too, but that’ll be a different post after this first one, or maybe a different thread. I agree with the idea of why the rage points disappeared – to keep things simple, but in the drive for simplicity, rage powers got screwed hard. So … I’ll just do a few things to try and add utility to them, completely do away with others entirely (given the boosts to the class structure proper from this), and the like as I go.
Without further ado, here’s my attempt to play with things and fine-tune the barbarian to bring it back to where it should have been from the outset in the upgrade. I’m just going to present it with no frills or formatting, because it’s hard to do that stuff for me on a web-board. I’m not savvy enough for it, so I’m side-stepping it in a more direct format.
Hit Die: d12
BAB: Full
Saves: Fort save is the only Good progression
Skill List: Unchanged
Skill Points: Unchanged
Level Progression
1 = Rage, Fast Movement: +10’, +1d6 Rage Damage
2 = Rage Power, Uncanny Dodge
3 = Lightning Reflexes
4 = Rage Power, Evasion
5 = Improved Uncanny Dodge
6 = Rage Power, Immunity to Non-Lethal damage and Stun effects while in rage state {needs a name}
7 = DR 1/-- , Great Rage, Fast Healing 2 {in rage state only}, +2d6 Rage Damage
8 = Rage Power, Immune to “Ray of Exhaustion” spell {only in rage state – needs a name}
9 = Fast Recovery {could use a new name}, Fast Movement: +20’
10 = DR 2/-- , Rage Power
11 = Preternatural Reflexes, Immunity to Waves of Fatigue spell {only in rage state – needs a name}
12 = Rage Power,
13 = DR 3/-- , Mighty Rage, Fast Healing 5 {in rage state only}, +3d6 Rage Damage
14 = Indomitable Will; Rage Power
15 = Improved Lightning Reflexes, Immunity to Waves of Exhaustion spell {only in rage state – needs a name}
16 = DR 4/-- , Rage Power
17 = Tireless Rage
18 = Rage Power; Fast Movement: +30’
19 = DR 5/-- , Immunity to Ability Damage and Drains {only in rage state – needs a name}
20 = Supreme Rage; Rage Power, Fast Healing 10, +4d6 Rage Damage
Explanation of Changes (that need explaining – some are just feats)
Rage: Rage is a +4 bonus to str, and a +2 to Will and Fort saves. No more con bonus, or bonus HP’s for entering a rage. Instead, barbarians gain DR X/-- where X = the ability mod of the rage type granted. So for Rage, it’s DR 2, etc. In addition, this DR is stackable with similar DR of any kind present on the barbarian.
Rage Damage: This is a new bonus just added to all melee damage a barbarian inflicts while in his rage state. It’s not huge and averages about a +3 boost/die, BUT this is something to help the barbarian reclaim position as damage dealer extreme – which they should be. It’s a way to boost damage (and damage only) in a semi-reliable way. It increases by 1d6 with each tier of the rage ability.
Fast Movement: This increases 2 times in progression in order to let a barbarian take advantage of speed and maneuverability a bit more than they can at present. It’s not on the level of a monk, but it’s still significant.
Immunity to non-lethal damage and stun effects while raging: this really, REALLY needs a name, but the idea being that they’re so amped up so as to fully ignore anything less than truly life-threatening effects, or crippling effects (ie: strike blind, etc). It’s an “only in rage” thing, but it’s a guaranteed thing vs. “rage power” as a way to enhance reliably the rage feature of the barbarian overall.
Great Rage: Increased from +6 to a +8 stat bonus and a +4 bonus on will and fort saves, etc. The DR of 1 gained at this level that is “always on” for a barbarian is stackable to the bonus 4 granted from a rage of this level, so while raging the barbarian actually gets DR 5/-.
Fast Healing: this is added as a feature while raging to the upper tier rage types and improves with each in order to give the barbarian additional “staying power” inside combat. It is a neat effect and functions well with this concept, IMO. Again, this is NOT relegated to rage power in favor of making it a guaranteed effect of the rage in progression and power vs. a *maybe* option of rage power.
Immunity to “spell called X”: this is there because those three spells I’ve singled out (maybe there’s more) are complete and TOTAL class killers for the barbarian. It defeats the rage and prevents it entirely for a duration of X minutes/level. Given barbarians only have “rounds” of rage, this is completely unfair. Adding in the lack of saving throws, or even partial saving throws STILL resulting in a fatigue state for a LONG time … and the best way to protect the whole class is through specific spell immunity. I granted the immunity on barbarians a few levels after casters *could* have access to those spells, though – leaves a few levels of being hit hard with it, but eventually they fully are immune to those types of effects once raging. On the balancing side of things, these immunities are ONLY granted once in a rage-state, so if a barbarian it hit before raging, he’s as boned as anyone else. It’s a fair trade, IMO. The idea being that once they’re raging, they become that much harder to stop.
Fast Recovery: This is there to act as a mid-way ability to the Tireless Rage feature. Currently, when in rage you have to be out of it for 2 rounds for every 1 round you used it. This speeds up fatigue recovery in general to about ½ that, so it turns out to be 1:1 in recovery instead of 2:1 recovery time before being able to rage again.
Preternatural Reflexes: in a rage state (ONLY) they gain the same bonus to Fort and Will saves added to their Ref saves as well. Again – guaranteed to increase the power and position of the rage vs. “rage power” of some sort.
Mighty Rage: this now grants a +12 bonus to str and a +6 bonus to will, fort and ref saves when raging. Fast healing increases to 5 and rage damage increases to +3d6.
Immunity to Ability Damage and Drains: only in a rage state, but just one more way to emphasize the degree of toughness that accompanies the rage. It’s at 19th level, so it should have a pretty potent potential. Ability damage and drains don’t come up that often, so it’s kind of marginal, BUT it’s also limited to only in rage as a guaranteed thing (again vs. rage power limitations) for emphasis on the innate power of the rage itself by that level.
Supreme Rage: I added a 4th tier to the rage progression for added emphasis on the importance of the ability. Str bonus is now a +16 with a +8 to fort, will and ref saves. Fast Healing ups to 10, and the rage damage goes up to +4d6.
Right, so – there it is. Thoughts? Comments and Criticisms?
Please post away and help me refine this little project of mine.
Thanks,
-The Speaker in Dreams
A few things I always felt the barbarian should have.
A choice among several options at different levels, I have always thought options good for individuals building a PC.
Third level
Secure campsite (EX)
A barbarian who familiarizes himself with and prepares a camp site can act as though the alarm spell has been cast on that area.Animal Empathy (per ranger)
rapid trap set
using natural materials a fleeing Barbarian can set CR rated 1 traps to slow pursuit and deal damage.This is not an exhaustive list but a special ability that duplicates a first level spell would not be gish including cure light wounds self only once/day.
I don't dislike your ideas, but they aren't consonant with the PRPG barbarian concept. The wild nature elements of the 3 & 3.5 barbarian class have been stripped away. The barbarian now is simply someone who is enraged-in fact, the PRPG barbarian can even be civilized. Perhaps I've misunderstood you; are suggesting that those elements be restored?
I don't dislike your ideas, but they aren't consonant with the PRPG barbarian concept. The wild nature elements of the 3 & 3.5 barbarian class have been stripped away. The barbarian now is simply someone who is enraged-in fact, the PRPG barbarian can even be civilized. Perhaps I've misunderstood you; are suggesting that those elements be restored?A few things I always felt the barbarian should have.
A choice among several options at different levels, I have always thought options good for individuals building a PC.
Third level
Secure campsite (EX)
A barbarian who familiarizes himself with and prepares a camp site can act as though the alarm spell has been cast on that area.Animal Empathy (per ranger)
rapid trap set
using natural materials a fleeing Barbarian can set CR rated 1 traps to slow pursuit and deal damage.This is not an exhaustive list but a special ability that duplicates a first level spell would not be gish including cure light wounds self only once/day.
except now they have knowledge (nature) instead of just knowledge (nothing) like in 3.5
Hi there! I’m firmly in the camp that believes there are problems with the existing barbarian as presented by PF. It didn’t go far enough and it’s weak for the effort. This is an attempt to correct that. Any not of the opinion – do not spew your vitriol in here, please. It’s a work in progress and this is the first draft, so all criticisms are welcome – just not into spewing garbage for the sake of it.
Design Philosophy going in:
1) Barbarians are all about their rage ability – it defines them and carries them though. This must become even MORE significant itself (vs. rage powers).
2) PF dropped the ball on the Barbarian upgrades. It got nerfed HARD after Beta, and it’s reeling in recovery. I’m going to attempt to put it back where it *should* have been and/or to scale with the other melee classes.
3) Barbarian key identification qualities are: tough/durable, outrageous strength and damage dealing capacity, and fast reactions – in that order.
4) More can be added to make the class “fun” vs. worrisome. Bonus HP will disappear. Yes, this is part of the long-standing barbarian thing, but as rage gets better and more hp creep in, more damage tends to be taken and the barbarian will get hosed when coming out of his rage. {by hosed I mean killed}. It’s, quite frankly, NOT fun to have that sort of worry with a key and defining class feature in play. There are ways to fix it, and I will – no more sacred cow.
5) Speaking of sacred cows – say good bye to the idea of a barbarian with a sixth sense for danger. It’s an old artifact and really does nothing to highlight features of the class and what it’s capable of, so, “Good bye, Trap Sense – you’ll not be missed!”I’ll be messing around w/rage powers too, but that’ll be a different post after this first one, or maybe a different thread. I agree with the idea of why the rage points disappeared – to keep things simple, but in the drive for simplicity, rage powers got screwed hard. So … I’ll just do a few things to try and add utility to them, completely do away...
Overall, I like what you've done, your design philosophy is sound. However, I think the Ability boosts are a bit strong; I would leave those as is (with the possible inclusion of the Supreme Rage). No class or spell or magic item grants bonuses on that scale, particularly to saving throws. With the added damage dice, it's a bit much.
But, nice work.
Overall, I like what you've done, your design philosophy is sound. However, I think the Ability boosts are a bit strong; I would leave those as is (with the possible inclusion of the Supreme Rage). No class or spell or magic item grants bonuses on that scale, particularly to saving throws. With the added damage dice, it's a bit much.
But, nice work.
This is the kinds of stuff I'm looking for - more detailed and specific types of things.
Ok, so on the ability boosting, here's my "thing" most other classes can get a myriad of bonuses to bump things up (those that do have this sort of feature), and bump them up really good, too! There are two main reasons I did this, though:
1) +2 (base rage existing), then +1 (greater rage existing) to that, then +1 to that for a +4 at 20th level (existing) is FAR too weak to even rate "capstone" when something like Bullstrength can grant exactly the same (a low level spell). And this is a "class feature" cap-stone level ability - follow? It's extremely weak, IMO, and very weak. Compare that to the other cap-stones of the other classes and I think the point will become very clear. How do you make "rage" cap-stone worthy? Pump the HELL out of the stat boost - which I did.
2) I also felt a +2/rage tier would be a better growth curve overall. Just, again, based on most other classes with scaling increases and such - they get FAR more FAR more quickly than the existing Barbarian rage. It also lets barbarians keep pace with the fighter bonus to damage from weapon training and wpn specializations, etc.
I guess the thing I'd say is to compare that top-level vs. other top-level abilities in other classes. They get POWERFUL bonuses - things that are really, really advantageous given their "niche" or whatever.
With the saves - that all kind of just went right along as "artifact/legacy" as I really did nothing to it other than to carry out the same function it had previously.
That said, I was raising my eyebrows at the save boosts - it's nice (and they always did get a fort boost from Con increase and the same boost to will saves), but it does make me wonder about power level of it all. It does make them much more magic-resistant, but I'm not sure it's a "bad" thing given the outrageous power level of magic in general. It *literally* changes the rules of any given scenario - especially the higher in level you go.
Maybe we can get a math-cruncher to weigh in on it?
I'm not above adjusting the save piece to match with the new mechanics, but the raw ability piece it kind of clutch. It's what makes it "worthy" of cap-stone.
A few things I always felt the barbarian should have.
A choice among several options at different levels, I have always thought options good for individuals building a PC.
Third level
Secure campsite (EX)
A barbarian who familiarizes himself with and prepares a camp site can act as though the alarm spell has been cast on that area.Animal Empathy (per ranger)
rapid trap set
using natural materials a fleeing Barbarian can set CR rated 1 traps to slow pursuit and deal damage.This is not an exhaustive list but a special ability that duplicates a first level spell would not be gish including cure light wounds self only once/day.
I'm not sure these would rate as much of a class feature - maybe as rage powers in some form, though?
I can easily see that Animal Empathy going under a Rage Power myself.
*bump*
No other people care to weigh in and/or evaluate this? No thoughts? Fine as is?
I'll second the motion that the ability increases seem overly strong, especially when considering that this is currently going to stack with Bull's Strength, magic items, etc. You're looking at more than doubling his strength easily.
I'm also on the fence about the outright immunities. I know they're only during rage, but it might be better to either delay the effects until he drops out of rage or give some sort of version of Mettle against spells and spell like effects that deal ability damage.
As a DM I would not want to pit this guy against my group because even halfway kitted he's going to drop someone on his first full attack (which he's likely to get thanks to his saves). He's just really, really brutal.
I'll second the motion that the ability increases seem overly strong, especially when considering that this is currently going to stack with Bull's Strength, magic items, etc. You're looking at more than doubling his strength easily.
I'm also on the fence about the outright immunities. I know they're only during rage, but it might be better to either delay the effects until he drops out of rage or give some sort of version of Mettle against spells and spell like effects that deal ability damage.
As a DM I would not want to pit this guy against my group because even halfway kitted he's going to drop someone on his first full attack (which he's likely to get thanks to his saves). He's just really, really brutal.
Yeah ... I hear that on the saves - been wondering if it's just too much myself in retrospect on the saves. I originally just took the formula of the saves in the first place and kept moving forward with it.
Now, however, I'm thinking maybe it should dial back to a single save point bonus for each rage state instead. So, Rage = +1, Great Rage = +2, Mighty Rage = +3 and Supreme Rage = +4 on the save bonus end?
As for dropping someone in 1 round with a full attack - that 20th level?
20th level casters can do much the same and likely to larger numbers than a barbarian.
What's "mettle" ?
I'm currently kind of tied to those immunities (ONLY in a rage, though) as they enhance the "tough as nails" piece I want them to have. Right now they are very, very specific immunities - and mostly because they're things that will IMMEDIATELY end their rage and prevent them from raging for a LONG time with no save potential at all. Given that this is *the* defining class feature ... those spells must go and/or be resisted in some way (given that the RAW allows for nothing short of an immunity to stop them really). They, literally, are built entirely around this one class feature ... if you take it away - for the durations of those effects, it'll cripple them like NO other class is capable of being crippled. Follow?
For a comparison for ability score boosting this high, check out the shapeshift variant for the Druid in PHBII. At the latest level, the druid gets a +16 bonus to strength as well, but to keep it in line, it's an enhancement bonus. Keep in mind, the +16 for the druid is also to make up for the fact they can't have any magic items "active" while shapeshifting (all their gear melds into their new form becoming inert). The Supreme rage has no such restrictions. I would scale it back or at least make the bonus an enhancement bonus.
my two copper.
"Mettle" is evasion for Fortitude and Will saves.
Simply saying that the barbarian gains the ability to make a saving throw against any effects that would fatigue or exhaust him during rage would be a vast improvement, especially since I allow a ton of third party material in my games, where there might be new spells that can cause it. Also, I don't see where it says being fatigued or exhausted ends their rage... just that they can't enter a new one.
I usually GM games before 12th level, my groups tend to be spellcaster-heavy, and we roll for HP, so I may have an underestimation of an average person's durability. It still isn't a good thing to do to my group, though. The bonuses to all the barb's saves are better than having Divine Grace, before counting magic item bonuses.
If they were enhancement bonuses, as the previous poster said, this might be much more manageable. The saves would probably still need scaling back (everyone, even spellcasters, have an achilles heel), but the strength wouldn't make this seem like a no-so-glass cannon.
Ok ... so the question now becomes - if it's an enhancement bonus, how much is changed for the class?
For my $ - I *think* I can live with that adjustment. Right now the only stat increased is Strength. It would push the "rage" more closely towards "magical effect" almost - but I'm ok with that anyway as I'm kind of heading in that direction already.
So ... where else is this change interacting with rules somewhere?
Meh. This reads too much like "make the barbarian better than every other melee class" for my taste.
I mean, why the hell would I ever play a fighter with this variant in play? This barbarian is a not only a better fighter than a fighter is, he's way better. And has useful abilities outside of combat too which the fighter doesn't.
It just screams of 'way too good' to me.
i like the idea of the class but ill make some changes, it seems to be a little OP. Either reduce the rage stats bonus to +1 per tier or make them enhancement bonus, add mettle (Evasion for fort n will saves, check the hexblade class) and lower the plain save bonus to +1 on each tier, remove the "inmunity to X spell" and move evasion to 8th lvl.-
These changes should balance the class a bit.-
@Coriat: could you detail out the "better" parts so it can be dialed back some? Specifics help more than the general "way better period!" sentiment. {nothing to respond to or adjust that way ...}
@unopened: Cool list of observations. Thanks! I'm thinking about making a 5-progression of the Rage states now (up from 4) and changing the save's to match that (I *think* it'll end up at +5 by the top tier to the saves). Str is going to cap out at a +10 under this, and abilities need to get reshuffled in the shake-up.
The immunities, though, seem kind of important - those spells allow for no save and will last long enough to make the barbarian's ONLY feature useless. Vs. a save is one thing, but those things are just extreme. I'm considering rewording it to "immune to effects of fatigue and exhaustion while in rage" or something like that ...
Why delay the evasion? {curiosity mostly}
Thanks for the feedback!!
Mostly to avoid a dip in the class just to take rage, mettle and the other bonuses (If you get it at level 1, you grant fort n will Evasion, later at lvl 4 you grat evasion, so investing 4 levels im already overpowered and could go for sorc/drag. disc. and be a munchink SOB xD) Ill put mettle at lvl 4 (a unique ability actually), and evasion at lvl 8 (As per ranger). So, you demand a huge level requirement for granting evasion on all saves.-
I like the idea of inmunity to fatigue and exhaustion while in rage, seems consisten with the class. but ill drag out the inmunity to ab. drain/dmg. It doesnt matter how amazing your body is, you still can be hamstringed, sucked dry by an undead, magically weakened, etc.-
Mostly to avoid a dip in the class just to take rage, mettle and the other bonuses (If you get it at level 1, you grant fort n will Evasion, later at lvl 4 you grat evasion, so investing 4 levels im already overpowered and could go for sorc/drag. disc. and be a munchink SOB xD) Ill put mettle at lvl 4 (a unique ability actually), and evasion at lvl 8 (As per ranger). So, you demand a huge level requirement for granting evasion on all saves.-
I like the idea of inmunity to fatigue and exhaustion while in rage, seems consisten with the class. but ill drag out the inmunity to ab. drain/dmg. It doesnt matter how amazing your body is, you still can be hamstringed, sucked dry by an undead, magically weakened, etc.-
Good thinking and examples on the evasion thing (mettle is a neat ability, but I'm not sure an "evasion for all saves" is what I was gunning for initially - it does fit, though).
On the ability damage - it's not so much of a "look I hit you're tendon" as it is that, while raging, you can't actually manage to "find" the dang tendons (or whatever vital area you'd like to use). It's more in the "tough as nails" thing I'm trying to get with them.
Good thinking and examples on the evasion thing (mettle is a neat ability, but I'm not sure an "evasion for all saves" is what I was gunning for initially - it does fit, though).
Yeah, it fits, not just a dumb and careless warrior, but a cunning, instinctive warrior that pushes forward either dodging, sucking up or shaking off things that would kill most mortals.-
yeah, i understand your thinking about the ab. dmg but keep in mind that he would be inmune to a lot of undead abilities and necromantic effects and mettle n evasion would give him high survavility (Not even thinking the DR, D12 hit dice and bonus on the saving throws) i dont think that the inmunity is a must. Maybe as a capstone or a power to be choosed at high lvl (18 - 20).- Keep in mind that a cleric spell or a magic item can cover this area pretty easily, i think that the barbarian should be an awesome physical melee combatant but not just invulnerable.-
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Speaker, You've designed several abilities that only go into effect while the barbarian is raging. How are those different from rage powers, beyond the fact that you want them hard-coded into the class? I think that although you put forward some interesting ideas, a lot of your design is spent locking those ideas into a straightjacket.
For example, I think it's a mistake to grant specific feats along the character progression. If the player wants his barbarian to be quick, let him CHOOSE Lightning Reflexes. If the player wants his barbarian to be immune to stunning, ability damage, or exhaustion while raging, craft those abilities as Rage Powers and let the player build his PC that way.
I think any or all of your class abilities... Preternatural Rage, Fast Healing, the various immunities, and even the bonus Rage Damage, are all worth exploring within the Rage Power space, because that's what they all appear to be mimicking, mechanically. Done that way, they could also be discussed and balanced against what already exists in that space.
Just my thoughts. Best of luck!
-eric
Speaker, You've designed several abilities that only go into effect while the barbarian is raging. How are those different from rage powers, beyond the fact that you want them hard-coded into the class? I think that although you put forward some interesting ideas, a lot of your design is spent locking those ideas into a straightjacket.
For example, I think it's a mistake to grant specific feats along the character progression. If the player wants his barbarian to be quick, let him CHOOSE Lightning Reflexes. If the player wants his barbarian to be immune to stunning, ability damage, or exhaustion while raging, craft those abilities as Rage Powers and let the player build his PC that way.
I think any or all of your class abilities... Preternatural Rage, Fast Healing, the various immunities, and even the bonus Rage Damage, are all worth exploring within the Rage Power space, because that's what they all appear to be mimicking, mechanically. Done that way, they could also be discussed and balanced against what already exists in that space.
Just my thoughts. Best of luck!
-eric
Yeah - I'd thought about that, too. The thing is that rage powers are SO weak. I mean, cripplingly weak (thus why I'm trying to redesign something that feels better in balance vs. other options put out).
If put into rage-power space, then they'll get nerfed like crazy to compare to existing rage-powers. Which have the following problems already:
*Limited use/rage: This is worse than X/day like a paladin as you can do something, but only 1 time ... what's the point?
*Action Activations: spending an action "any" action to use your power is bogus. It's a rage. Why/how is the rager (that's limited in skill use and action types already because he's in a rage - all mechanically defined w/the rage state mind you) going to stop and be all "Oh, yeah! Time to use a move action for power X now" in the middle of his "mindless" attacking fury?
*Lack of Synergy between powers: With the limited use and action activations, there are more than a few rage powers that are always going to be either/or in nature because you can't use 2 swift actions, or move actions or whatever - thus, further limiting barbarian options.
*Extreme Limitations = weaker than feats. I think a lot of people *look* at the Barbarian and are all impressed with the 10 rage powers he/she gets. But then looking at them, they are weak as all hell because of the above factors when compared against a Feat. It's just terrible to consider these things as even 'on par' with Feats. At best they're like 1/2 feats or something given the heavy/extreme limitations on them. No to mention use of any of those three spells above drops the barbarian out of rage with NO save and keeps him out of rage (unless having that rage power that lets you rage when fatigued - not sure about exhausted, though) for a LONG time with the durations they have. A few spells that effectively cancel *every*single*upgrade* Pathfinder tried to give them ... that sucks. IT sucks hard. It's one thing if there's a save involved, but as it stands? Nothing.
Now, structure-wise, the things I suggest can easily lend themselves to "rage powers" certainly. But rage powers are weak (consider above reasoning), and if I did that, there would be nothing inherent to the class to try and make up for it's shortcomings. It needs a serious revision to stay competitive, and that's not going to happen by using 1/2 feats to accomplish it.
There's only 2 "real" feats in the whole progression (rangers have like 6 free feats, spell casting abilities, animal companions, etc, etc). Barbarians have rage power (severely limited in use and function - see above again). Regarding those feats - they move towards the point of the barbarian concept as well - "fast moving fighter". It's been there in fast movement, but in the interest of "beefing up" the class a bit, I tossed on 2 feats that emphasize that particular feature of barbarians in a more mechanical way than just faster movement. Thematically, they fit what a barbarian *should* be {according to my design philosophy anyway}.
The "straightjacket" is more in the form of "upgrade guarantee" rather than a limiting factor.
At present E'm looking at the following:
*dropping/delaying the "rage damage" a bit.
*dropping the "every even level" Rage Power progression. I think that guaranteed "always to work" abilities are better than a few more, highly limited in function abilities. This would be a balancing factor to that.
I'll probably be making an updated progression on this soon, though. Thanks for all the comments, everyone!
You've helped a LOT in shaping the design, so by all means check in and comment on version 2.0!
Looking forward to more criticisms from the community!
-Speaker
Yeah - I'd thought about that, too. The thing is that rage powers are SO weak. I mean, cripplingly weak (thus why I'm trying to redesign something that feels better in balance vs. other options put out).
I am not sure you and I are looking at the same set of rage powers. There are a few quite good ones in there. Sure, "raging swimmer" and w/e are made of suck, but here's a quick (not comprehensive) list of ones made of excellent:
Animal fury: like a free TWF feat - except without the attack penalties that normally come with TWF. The associated grappling bonus is non-negligible also, a barbarian is already the best full bab class at grapple specializing and this makes him even better at it.
Knockback(Ex): Not great on its own but gets great when you combine it with the two bull rush feats, and if you really want to go overboard, unexpected strike and strength surge. Full attack enemy, 5' step away, when they 5' step follow, you get a CMB check that you won't fail to make them lose their full attack.
Since this is not limited use, it's quite good even when not combined with unexpected strike and strength surge. Bull rush as an attack action instead of a standard action, without the movement restrictions = good.
Scent: Pretty obviously a decent ability.
Strength Surge: At higher levels this is basically "pass one CMB check or CMD defense per combat, automatically" which is not bad. Especially given that the barbarian is already (did I mention this) the best class for using combat maneuvers.
Unexpected Strike: This ability might only seem frighteningly good - until you start combining it with the above observation about combat maneuvers. Then it becomes frighteningly awesome.
So yeah, I don't argue there is a ton of rough on that list but a number of gems and even a diamond or two sprinkled in there as well :)
If you are worried about sticking things in the 'rage powers' category that don't balance with the other ones, however, I'd suggest creating a separate list of "greater rage powers" only selectable at 10+ level, similar to how a rogue does it now. That's one update I would like - I think barbarian generally holds its own up till around 12th level, then starts losing a little shine. A (modest) boost at higher levels would help alleviate that.
The first post goes way too far, though - get to that in a minute.
Immunity to “spell called X”: this is there because those three spells I’ve singled out (maybe there’s more) are complete and TOTAL class killers for the barbarian. It defeats the rage and prevents it entirely for a duration of X minutes/level.
As a side note, this is incorrect.
For one, becoming fatigued or exhausted while raging does not end a rage.
For two, note that there is a rage power that makes you immune to being fatigued while raging and allows you to enter a rage while fatigued. It is one of those other rage powers that aren't "SO, cripplingly weak" and are why the above short list I gave is not comprehensive.
That leaves only Waves of Exhaustion as actually preventing you from raging, and only if your enemy gets it off before you can rage (that is, only if he casts it in the very first round of combat) and is a 13th level arcane caster. And if I am a 13th level arcane caster who gets the drop on a meleer, I think I would have far deadlier things to do in my surprise round than that.
Ability damage and drains don’t come up that often, so it’s kind of marginal,
Ability damage comes up all the time in the form of poison. Poison is very common in high level monsters.
As a quick reference, since the ability is granted at level 19:
50% of creatures CR 18-20 in the PRD deal ability damage, three (kraken, tarn linnorm, pit fiend) through poison, one (shoggoth) through its maddening cacaphony, and two (balor and pit fiend, coming in for its second appearance) through unholy aura.
Looking at just CR 20s, it's 75%.
Ok, just to hit the responses quickly:
On the rage powers - you gave me 5 of a list of like 31 powers to be "good" and call the rest "rough" - that, in itself is telling.
Now, while the effects of your list are certainly useful you do NOTHING to address my inherent complaint (and many other's mind you) that they are severely restricted. Only Knockback can be used all the time, and at that I mean 1/round (perfectly reasonable I might add, too). Animal Fury is ok ... if you're planning to grapple or can pick up Multi-Attack (a feat that you can ONLY use while raging mind you - odd in itself).
Scent - only while raging. Really? REALLY? When you can "use no skill that requires concentration" how, exactly, is this a usable feature for them? Trying to find an invisible foe? Oh - wait! You can't because you'd have to "concentrate" on sound/smell/etc to find 'em, right? It's only useful if you happen to like stumble RIGHT on the guy, or if he/she closes to try and sneak-stab (or something) you - which generally is a bad idea anyway on account of uncanny dodge. So ... where's the utility here? I'm w/you in the ability to get it being darn cool! However, the way it functions, it's crippled from the get.
Strength Surge you say? CRAP, Say I! Immediate action to activate (ok ... provided you've not used a swift or any other sort of action yet), and 1/rage limit. It's really cool ... ONE TIME! {action activation AND 1/rage limitation = SEVERLY LIMITED, which was my original complaint)
Unexpected strike - again very cool feature. Instant AoO even when not normally entitled to one. This is GREAT! Suck factor = 1/rage. Again, one time!!!
Of the 5 you gave, only 2 have any sort of reliable utility. The others are like the weakest spell-effect you'll ever see (because they function just like a spell slot in rage).
Are the abilities nice? Sure. The real question is can you make use of them? Answer is "not enough to be considered more than marginal in utility" and this makes them FAR less useful than a Feat that is usable in/out of rage and provides some guaranteed effect that doesn't suddenly disappear when you use it (and give you no where NEAR the bang for the buck of say a genuine spell slot).
Since you mention "diamonds" and "gems", I'll respond with, "costume jewelery can shine just as brightly and you'll never know the difference ... from a distance." ;-)
For one, becoming fatigued or exhausted while raging does not end a rage.
Maybe not - but it certainly nerfs the hell out of the rage itself. -2 to Str and Dex, so -1 on the to hit and damage from the rage, and another -1 to the AC. And that's with the save (ie: fatigued IF you save). You can not run or charge now either, and you'll be that way for 8 hours (forget normal Rage recovery time ...).
If the full effect goes off, it's even worse: -6 to str and dex (-3 to hit and damage, and -3 to AC). He can only move at 1/2 speed, and can't run or charge either.
Maybe it doesn't "end rage", but in essence the penalties applied sure do. The worst part is that there's no real way around this, except *maybe* the Mettle ability - would that work better than an outright immunity (essentially, if they make the save, they avoid the effect like Evasion, but for Fort and Will saves)?
For two, note that there is a rage power that makes you immune to being fatigued while raging and allows you to enter a rage while fatigued. It is one of those other rage powers that aren't "SO, cripplingly weak" and are why the above short list I gave is not comprehensive.
That power doesn't make you immune while raging UNLESS YOU'VE already become fatigued somehow and THEN activate it. It has a few, circumstantial uses, but it does have *some* utility (more than 1/rage powers), BUT it comes with it's own bag of worms to cripple/hinder it's use as well: it lets you rage again, even if fatigued, and you THEN are immune to fatigue, BUT when you stop, you're at the exhausted level for 10 MINUTES per round spent in rage!!!! If that's not cause to pump your breaks when using this - what is? {forget the 2:1 resting rounds of normal use and function}
That leaves only Waves of Exhaustion as actually preventing you from raging, and only if your enemy gets it off before you can rage (that is, only if he casts it in the very first round of combat) and is a 13th level arcane caster. And if I am a 13th level arcane caster who gets the drop on a meleer, I think I would have far deadlier things to do in my surprise round than that.
If that's true? Why object? The only thing those immunities do is protect them from getting hindered from the ONE thing they get as a class feature.
Ability damage comes up all the time in the form of poison. Poison is very common in high level monsters.
It may come up w/critters, but what about the high level classed threats? Things built w/classes vs. just being a monster or something? Besides, a Pit Fiend & Co, have far more impressive things at their disposal than poison to take out a barbarian. I would hardly even rate that as 1st line offense for most of what you listed.
:shrugs:
Even if a lot of critters use it and poison's in the mix, it's just ability damage - can't stop anything else, so it's situational in the extreme.
Enemy selection comes down to GM's choice and nature of the campaign. I'm not going to design the class on something completely so circumstantial. In all honesty, I'm not that wedded to the concept either - so *meh* I'll keep it in mind moving forward certainly. Thanks for pointing it out as I'd not thought of poison at all (though i did think of undead stuff - and dismissed it).
Ok, just to hit the responses quickly:
On the rage powers - you gave me 5 of a list of like 31 powers to be "good" and call the rest "rough" - that, in itself is telling.
And as I noted there are a few other good ones as well.
But yes, if you read my post I actually agree with you. My own change to the barbarian would be to give it a list of higher, level 10+ rage powers similar to the Witch's advanced hexes or w/e it was in the APG playtest. That's enough to balance it with other melee into the high levels, IMO.
Regular rage power at level 2/4/6/8/10, perhaps, then greater rage power (or a substituted regular if you reeeeally want to) at 12/14/16/18/20.
Scent - only while raging. Really? REALLY? When you can "use no skill that requires concentration" how, exactly, is this a usable feature for them?
Funny I'm staring at the glossary entry for Scent right now, and, I don't see anything about concentration. Check the rules again...
Strength Surge you say? CRAP, Say I! Immediate action to activate (ok ... provided you've not used a swift or any other sort of action yet), and 1/rage limit. It's really cool ... ONE TIME!
One time per combat, basically. And if you think what basically amounts to auto-success on one combat maneuver check per combat is weak, you are (I intend no offense, a lot of changes in PF...) not very familiar with the way combat maneuvers work.
Combat maneuvers you will often only need to succeed on the first check, or else once you succeed on one check, subsequent ones are made easier. Bull rushing someone? Great - they're bull rushed into whatever it was you were pushing them into/off of, job done. Grappling? Once you succeed at the first check you get an automatic +5 on future checks, so between the rage, the feats, and the +5 that Strength Surge enabled you to reach, you should be passing them in future rounds pretty automatically as well. Trip? Once you trip them, they take the prone penalties every time you trip them again as an AoO when they get up.
I think if you take a closer look at the combat maneuver rules you may decide that 1/combat practically guaranteed success on a combat maneuver is not nearly so bad as you make out. The first check you make is almost always the important one.
Unexpected strike - again very cool feature. Instant AoO even when not normally entitled to one. This is GREAT! Suck factor = 1/rage. Again, one time!!!
This is extremely good at 1/combat. Easily the best rage power. If it were at will, it would be insanely overpowered.
Of the 5 you gave, only 2 have any sort of reliable utility. The others are like the weakest spell-effect you'll ever see (because they function just like a spell slot in rage).
Are the abilities nice? Sure. The real question is can you make use of them? Answer is "not enough to be considered more than marginal in utility" and this makes them FAR less useful than a Feat...
Honestly have you tried these powers out? I have the suspicion based on the above that if you have, you gave up without really thinking through how you could make use of them.
Maybe not - but it certainly nerfs the hell out of the rage itself. -2 to Str and Dex, so -1 on the to hit and damage from the rage, and another -1 to the AC. And that's with the save (ie: fatigued IF you save). You can not run or charge now either, and you'll be that way for 8 hours (forget normal Rage recovery time ...).
For one, becoming fatigued or exhausted while raging does not end a rage.
No it doesn't. It nerfs nothing of the rage itself, you are confusing a general debuff which applies to anyone who it hits, barbarian or not, with a rage debuff. Ray of exhaustion does nothing at all to a raging character that it does not do to any character that it hits.
If the full effect goes off, it's even worse: -6 to str and dex (-3 to hit and damage, and -3 to AC). He can only move at 1/2 speed, and can't run or charge either.
Again you're just quoting a spell effect. Spells often do bad things to you when you fail saves.
I mean, it would suck for a fighter to fail his save vs Ray of Exhaustion too. It would suck for a wizard if he dumped his Str even worse, cause now he probably won't be able to move with encumbrance. Should we just make it so nothing nasty happens when saving throws are failed?
I see no reason why the barbarian should be made exempt in this particular case given that he should be embarrassed if he fails a Fort save anyway, and there's even a touch attack required on top of that.
Maybe it doesn't "end rage", but in essence the penalties applied sure do.
No. They don't. A raging barbarian still has a Str four (or six, or eight) points higher than he otherwise would after getting hit by this spell. Still the same Str. spread difference between him and a fighter who gets hit.
Taking a penalty =/= the end of the world. It will often happen when enemy spellcasters cast spells at you and is to be expected. A raging barbarian who gets hit by this spell is better off Str wise than any other melee character also hit precisely because his rage is not ended.
For two, note that there is a rage power that makes you immune to being fatigued while raging and allows you to enter a rage while fatigued. It is one of those other rage powers that aren't "SO, cripplingly weak" and are why the above short list I gave is not comprehensive.That power doesn't make you immune while raging UNLESS YOU'VE already become fatigued somehow and THEN activate it. It has a few, circumstantial uses, but it does have *some* utility (more than 1/rage powers),
Oh, you're right. Fair enough. Still pretty useful way to get around recovery time when you need to (and at some points over a campaign, you will need to), and still gets around 2/3 of those spells.
If that's true? Why object? The only thing those immunities do is protect them from getting hindered from the ONE thing they get as a class feature.
Because I think it is bad design principle. Dnd is based around a roughly 4 person party in which each member has specialized strengths and severe weaknesses individually. As a party, they work together to cover their weaknesses.
Get your paladin buddy to get the mercy which automatically removes fatigue and, later, exhaustion, and never worry about it again, for just one completely top-of-the-head example - I'm sure there are other ways too. Dnd is a party based game.
How often do you expect to run into waves of fatigue anyway? It's not a constantly occuring game breaker for barbarians in any actual campaign I've ever played in.
Back to this particular variant barbarian,
@Coriat: could you detail out the "better" parts so it can be dialed back some? Specifics help more than the general "way better period!" sentiment. {nothing to respond to or adjust that way ...}
I'd get rid of the extra d6s of rage damage, the ability damage immunity, the evasion, the immunity to stunning and the specific spells (nonlethal while raging could probably stay), preternatural reflexes, and would bump the base rage bonuses to +4/6/8/10 Str, half that for the others (I like 4 tiers, though). I would move the fast healing to a 0/2/5 rather than 2/5/10 as currently. Once that's done I think the class would be close enough to balanced to run a couple playtests, though it still might need some more minor adjustments afterwards. My gut is that it would still be slightly on the powerful side.
That kind of guts a lot of the changes you made, I know. It's a suggestion only. Below is a quick demonstration of why I make it, though (since you asked for some crunch analysis as well):
I will make a quick and dirty comparison with a fighter at level 7. It only gets worse for the fighter from there on up, so that seems a good level.
Level 7:
Fighter's class abilities are weapon training +1 in one weapon, normal movement in armor, a fear bonus and five feats. Presumably he will have put weapon focus and weapon specialization onto his favorite weapon.
This gives him a total of +2 to hit and +3 damage with it (same whether 1 or 2 handed) compared to other weapons. With any other weapon he gets no benefit.
Barbarian variant class abilities at this level are Mighty Rage (+8 Str, DR 4/-, +4 Fort/Will saves, Fast Healing 2, +2d6 damage, (average: 7), immunity to nonlethal damage, immunity to stunning), fast movement 10, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, DR 1/-, and Evasion.
This gives him a total of +4 to hit and +13 (average, two-handed) damage, which works with any weapon.
Barbarian at this level will be able to rage for, give or take, 20 rounds per day. Most days this will mean he can rage for every dangerous combat (if an average CR-appropriate combat takes 3-5 rounds and an average dungeon-clearin' day includes 3-5 of the above), making rage pretty much "always on in any challenging combat."
level 7s, Quick and Dirty style:
So using two PC stat ish 2 handed weapon users, let's say they each have identical base ability scores of Str. 17, Dex. 13, Con. 14, Int. 10, Wis, 12, Cha, 8 to keep things as simple as possible. Similar equipment: +2 weapon, +2 belt of Str, both human, racial and level bonus to Str. Fighter uses +2 fullplate, barbarian +2 breastplate (giving him the same speed as the fighter now). They each have a cloak of resistance +2 and a ring of protection +1, and whatever else they have isn't related to AC, saves, or attacks (agan for simplicity).
So we get a final array of Str 20(22), Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10. While raging the barbarian has a Str 30 instead of 22.
Neither of these are optimized to the hilt, but they both are optimized to about the same degree.
Fighter dirty stats:
Feats WF (greatsword), Power Attack, Toughness, Iron Will, Dodge, Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Cleave, Step Up, Disruptive.
Attack greatsword. +7 base, +6 Str, +2 enchantment, +1 focus, +1 training. Total +17/12 melee (+15/10 power attacking)
Damage greatsword: +9 Str, +2 enhancement, +2 specialization, +1 training. Total 2d6+14, average 21. +6 power attacking, average 27.
I know there are crits but I don't want to deal with that math and since they have an identical crit range and multiplier, I don't have to. Using the same weapon and with no crit specialization feats yet, there is no effect on relative output from crits.
AC is 24, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+1 Dex, +1 Dodge, +11 armor, +1 deflection)
CMD is 26 (10 base, 7 BAB, 6 Str, 1 Dex, 1 Dodge, 1 Deflection)
CMB is +13 (7 BAB, 6 Str)
HP are average 72 (7d10+28)
Saves are Fort +9 (5 base, 2 cloak, 2 Con), Ref. +5 (2 base, 1 Dex, 2 cloak), Will +7 (2 base, 1 Wis, 2 feat, 2 cloak).
3 skills per level. Perception is one (checks at +8), other two free.
Raging barbarian dirty stats:
Feats WF (greatsword), Dodge, Power Attack, Toughness, Step Up.
Rage powers: Animal Fury, Unexpected Strike, Roused Anger
Attack greatsword +7 base, +10 Str, +2 enhancement, +1 focus. Total +20/15 melee (+18/13 power attacking)
Damage greatsword +15 Str, +2 enhancement, +2d6 rage. Total 4d6+18, average 32 (power attacking 38.)
Attack bite +7 base, +10 Str, -5 secondary, +12 total. +10 w/ power attack.
Damage bite 1d4+5
AC is 19, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +1 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 deflection, -2 rage)
CMD is 28 (10 base, 7 BAB, 10 Str, 1 Dex, 1 Dodge, 1 Deflection, -2 rage)
CMB is +17 (7 base, 10 Str)
HP are average 80 (7d12+28)
Saves are Fort +13 (5 base, 2 Con, 4 rage, 2 cloak), Ref +7 (2 base, 1 Dex, 2 feat, 2 cloak) (Evasion), Will +9 (2 base, 1 Wis, 4 rage, 2 cloak)
5 skills per level. Perception (checks at +11) and four more.
Side by side results:
Attacks:
Fighter: +17/12, 2d6+14 (average 21 per normal hit).
Barbarian +20/15, 4d6+18 (average 32) and +12, 1d4+5 (average 7.5)
Note on CR 7s: A CR 7 average AC hovers around 20.
Large advantage to the barbarian
Power Attacking
Fighter +15/10, 2d6+20 (average 27)
Barbarian +18/13, 4d6+24 (average 38)and +10, 1d4+7 (average 9.5)
Still large advantage to barbarian. Still hits an average CR 7 foe with his first attack on any roll but a 1.
Combat Maneuvers:
Fighter CMB +13, CMD 26
Barbarian CMB +17 (When grappling, free bite attack, +19 w/ success), CMD 28
The barbarian is much better at offensive maneuvers and somewhat better at defending against them.
Defense:
Fighter AC 24, flat-footed 20, no special defenses
Barbarian AC 19, DR 5/-, improved uncanny dodge, immunity to nonlethal damage, immunity to stunning.
Note on CR 7s: A CR 7 primary attack damage hovers somewhere around 20, and secondary natural attacks, if around, ~10-15 ish.
A fighter's +5 AC advantage means he'll generally get hit around 25% less, a barbarian's DR 5/- translates to taking a quarter off the damage of a primary attack and a third to a half off secondary attacks. In general, DR 5/- is somewhat better at this particular level than 5 points of AC.
This does not extrapolate to other values of DR (in general, the higher the damage the less the DR will matter, so at high levels it is worth somewhat less). However, note also that this barbarian variant can and should take armor proficiency (heavy) once he reaches high levels, slap on a mithril full plate, and go to town - his speed in full plate will eventually be better than the fighter's, and the AC gap will vanish.
Overall, the barbarian holds a moderate advantage in defense which becomes a significant advantage once his other special defenses (uncanny dodge and immunities) are factored in.
Hit Points:
Fighter: 72
Barbarian: 80 + fast healing 2
Saves:
Fighter: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +7. (+9 vs fear)
Barbarian: Fort +13, Ref. +7, Will +9
The barbarian has significantly better saves all around, except in the special case of fear saves which are a fighter class specialty. In those the barbarian is merely the fighter's equal.
The barbarian also possesses Evasion.
Overall, barbarian holds a very large advantage on Fort and Reflex saves, and a moderate advantage in Will saves (where the fighter has Iron Will and a class bonus).
Mobility:
At last, the fighter can... catch up. Both move at 30' per round.
The barbarian has Acrobatics as a class skill, a very important combat mobility skill when dealing with any creature that has reach. He also has a few more skill points to throw at things like swim if he really needs to. Overall, moderate advantage to the barbarian.
Skills:
Barbarian has a large advantage here as always with 4 base per level compared to the fighter's 2, and better class skills.
So the result is that the Barbarian variant comes out far ahead of the fighter in attack bonus, damage, saves, combat maneuvers, defense, and skills, moderately ahead in hit points and mobility.
The fighter is ahead in one thing, his ability to make it slightly harder for enemy spellcasters to cast when he is in reach.
Note the AC numbers above. The barbarian will kill about any CR 7 monster in the Bestiary with two full attacks on average, without buffs from party members. A fair number he can kill with an average standard attack followed by an average full attack, or a single hasted full attack.
I'm about to update this whole thing in a new thread with a new progression anyway, but this stuff you bring up is kind of at the core of what's wrong as I see it anyway, so I'll respond {plus the back and forth is fun!}
I've got nothing against more, higher level rage powers other than they will likely be as limited as the others. :shrugs:
On Scent - you're looking at the wrong rules, man. Look at the Barbarian's limitations and explain how you can do a perception check to find an invisible attacker w/out "concentrating" (thus ruling out use of the ability - save if you like are RIGHT next to it). It's just stupid. Powers like this one should be on the level of simply adding it as an "always on" ability even out of rage. {same w/low-light and dark visions) But hey - I'm crazy! I like things to make sense that way - not be contradictory to the point of uselessness.
I don't think anything's weak with that feat except for 1/rage period. At will would be foolish and most of your examples provide only a single boon anyway (except the grapple), so while you could bull rush the hell out of someone - so what? It's no different than any other bull rush (though the potential of bull-rushing a dragon is amusing to no end).
I advocate for NOTHING to be "at will" on the rage powers, but there needs to be a balance between 1/rage and "at will" somewhere or these things are nearly worthless in use. Spells are used 1 time ... and you get a HELL of a lot more out of them.
I've thought of plenty of ways to use them ... I've also thought of plenty of ways they've been neutered since beta. I've thought about the reasons why rage points went away, and I can back them. I can NOT back the catastrophic nerf the final release went with.
On the spells: sure - anyone can get de-buffed. However, in the case of the barbarian he loses his enitire class feature in that debuff - either minorly, or majorly depending on the level of rage he has going on. It's not the debuff itself that's bothersome - it's the fact that it kills the whole class feature RIGHT THERE! {existing Barb - not my adjusted stats above, though they still take a hit, too).
No, it's not the end of the world to get hit w/a debuff. It's also not the end of the world to ensure that a barbarian of high level using his rage can't get screwed out of it with a spell that allows for no save.
On your design thing - that's crazy. You don't design your class based around others helping him - you build the class according to how it should operate and compare it to other classes and their own, unique abilities for comparisons. "A barbarian will be fine w/fatigue if a paladin's around w/x, y, and z options!"
You determine what it *should* do and try to make it happen and look at the end result and adjust as needed. It's not supposed to be a stand alone - though I'm getting that as your impression from this, so thanks for that. I'll look at that as well now.
NOTE: my forthcoming revision does dial many things way, way down!