I don't suppose shield focus works when you have two weapon defence adding a shield bonus from your off-hand?
Nope. TWD grants a shield bonus, it doesn't treat your off-hand weapon as a shield. Shield Focus requires a shield, not just a shield bonus to AC.
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Also, shield bonuses don't stack with themselves. If you TWF with a shield and have Shield Focus, you can either take the AC boost from the Two Weapon Defense feat or the AC boost from the shield itself. They don't stack, so you only get the AC boost from the higher bonus.
Was it ever answered if you could apply/take advantage of Shield Enhancements to an off-hand weapon if you have the 2 Weapon Defense Feat? (i.e. applying a Shield Enhancement Bonus on top of the Shield Bonus from 2WD, probably unusable unless the wielder has 2WD)
Personally, I think 2WD isn't really worth it otherwise: 2WF with a Light Shield is just better even ignoring the Bash/Bull-rush aspect (and as plenty of Feats exist to make Shields a great 2WF 'weapon' choice, providing a 'reverse' option seems reasonable), but I'd like to know the RAW/RAI here.
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Was it ever answered if you could apply/take advantage of Shield Enhancements to an off-hand weapon if you have the 2 Weapon Defense Feat? (i.e. applying a Shield Enhancement Bonus on top of the Shield Bonus from 2WD, probably unusable unless the wielder has 2WD)
Personally, I think 2WD isn't really worth it otherwise: 2WF with a Light Shield is just better even ignoring the Bash/Bull-rush aspect (and as plenty of Feats exist to make Shields a great 2WF 'weapon' choice, providing a 'reverse' option seems reasonable), but I'd like to know the RAW/RAI here.
Two weapon defense's big bonus is for the two-weapon fighter who uses a normal weapon in his off hand (not a shield). It's a way to get a precious one extra point to AC, which can save lives. It's not a HUGE feat, but not a bad one to take if you're a two weapon fighter... especially if you're a ranger or fighter who has bonus feats to spare.
Shield enhancements do not apply to off hand weapons. They only get to go onto actual for-real shields.
Shield enhancements do not apply to off hand weapons. They only get to go onto actual for-real shields.
OK, I assume that also goes for weapons like Meteor Hammer which can also provide a Shield Bonus in certain circumstances?
Was it ever answered if you could apply/take advantage of Shield Enhancements to an off-hand weapon if you have the 2 Weapon Defense Feat? (i.e. applying a Shield Enhancement Bonus on top of the Shield Bonus from 2WD, probably unusable unless the wielder has 2WD)
Personally, I think 2WD isn't really worth it otherwise: 2WF with a Light Shield is just better even ignoring the Bash/Bull-rush aspect (and as plenty of Feats exist to make Shields a great 2WF 'weapon' choice, providing a 'reverse' option seems reasonable), but I'd like to know the RAW/RAI here.
Two weapon defense's big bonus is for the two-weapon fighter who uses a normal weapon in his off hand (not a shield). It's a way to get a precious one extra point to AC, which can save lives. It's not a HUGE feat, but not a bad one to take if you're a two weapon fighter... especially if you're a ranger or fighter who has bonus feats to spare.
Shield enhancements do not apply to off hand weapons. They only get to go onto actual for-real shields.
On the other hand, a spiked shield can have shield enhancements and weapon enhancements, since the spike is treated as a separate enchantment item, if I read the rules correctly.
So if you want to TWF and use as shield, you could go with the spiked shield and pick whichever style you need for a round (board & blade vs TWF).
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Shield enhancements do not apply to off hand weapons. They only get to go onto actual for-real shields.OK, I assume that also goes for weapons like Meteor Hammer which can also provide a Shield Bonus in certain circumstances?
Correct.
As for the spiked shield, remember that the shield and its spike are effectively two different components, even though they're all one object. Same goes for the klar (a shield and blade combo).
Shield enhancements do not apply to off hand weapons. They only get to go onto actual for-real shields.OK, I assume that also goes for weapons like Meteor Hammer which can also provide a Shield Bonus in certain circumstances?Correct.
As for the spiked shield, remember that the shield and its spike are effectively two different components, even though they're all one object. Same goes for the klar (a shield and blade combo).
Talking about that, is there an official FAQ somewhere where we can find a clear explanation of all the rules concerning shield combat and its related feats, actions, enhancements? This as been a conflictual subject for a long time, and official answers are spread over a number of threads. It's actually kind of hard to piece everything together when trying to make a shield fighter.
For instance, the fact that the shield and spikes are two-separate items, how does this interact with the bashing enchantment, both cost and damage wise?
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Talking about that, is there an official FAQ somewhere where we can find a clear explanation of all the rules concerning shield combat and its related feats, actions, enhancements? This as been a conflictual subject for a long time, and official answers are spread over a number of threads. It's actually kind of hard to piece everything together when trying to make a shield fighter.
For instance, the fact that the shield and spikes are two-separate items, how does this interact with the bashing enchantment, both cost and damage wise?
We don't have a FAQ yet; it's something we'd like to get going some day, but we won't have the time or resources to get it going for at least a few months. In the meantime (and even AFTER the FAQ comes out) it's perfectly fine to decide on your own how it works, or to consult fellow gamers or Pazio employees for answers on these boards.
The bashing enhancement would be a sort of silly one to give to a spiked shield, in my opinion. You'd end up with a spiked shield that you could attack with as a weapon in spiked shield mode or bashing mode... they wouldn't stack together. You'd have to decide which one you were using when you attacked.
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Talking about that, is there an official FAQ somewhere where we can find a clear explanation of all the rules concerning shield combat and its related feats, actions, enhancements? This as been a conflictual subject for a long time, and official answers are spread over a number of threads. It's actually kind of hard to piece everything together when trying to make a shield fighter.
For instance, the fact that the shield and spikes are two-separate items, how does this interact with the bashing enchantment, both cost and damage wise?
We don't have a FAQ yet; it's something we'd like to get going some day, but we won't have the time or resources to get it going for at least a few months. In the meantime (and even AFTER the FAQ comes out) it's perfectly fine to decide on your own how it works, or to consult fellow gamers or Pazio employees for answers on these boards.
The bashing enhancement would be a sort of silly one to give to a spiked shield, in my opinion. You'd end up with a spiked shield that you could attack with as a weapon in spiked shield mode or bashing mode... they wouldn't stack together. You'd have to decide which one you were using when you attacked.
Actually James, unless I'm misunderstanding you, I think they do stack. At least for the purposes of a Shield Bash, which is how you make offhand attacks with your shield.
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you.
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage).
So a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would deal 2d6 points of damage on a 'shield bash', being treated as if it were three size categories higher. This is how it was in 3.5 at least, it doesn't look like the Pathfinder rules changed any wording in that regard.
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So a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would deal 2d6 points of damage on a 'shield bash', being treated as if it were three size categories higher. This is how it was in 3.5 at least, it doesn't look like the Pathfinder rules changed any wording in that regard.
Not if you're going to play the semantics game/rules as precisely written game. Because a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it). The bashing quality says noting about improving a shield spike attack. It's ONLY about improving a shield bash attack.
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Not if you're going to play the semantics game/rules as precisely written game. Because a shield spike and a shield bash are DIFFERENT weapons (they've got different entries on the weapon table on page 142 to prove it). The bashing quality says noting about improving a shield spike attack. It's ONLY about improving a shield bash attack.So a +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield would deal 2d6 points of damage on a 'shield bash', being treated as if it were three size categories higher. This is how it was in 3.5 at least, it doesn't look like the Pathfinder rules changed any wording in that regard.
Huh? But shield spikes just say they improve the damage dealt by a shield bash, same as the Bashing quality. :S I'm not entirely baseless here I think, I'm also going off of the 3.5 FAQ.
The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields. Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?
You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield spikes), and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon. The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing enhancement increases that to 1d8.)
I know Pathfinder is a different version, but the wording for Shield Spikes or Bashing don't seem to have changed. They had different entries on the equipment table in 3.5 too, I thought it was just to assist with a quick damage calculation and such. When you add the Bashing quality to either, you upgrade that shields damage by two sizes.
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In the end, it's up to you or your GM how to resolve this (as with any other) rule in your game. Adding a shield spike not only changes the amount of damage you do but also changes the TYPE of damage from bludgeoning to piercing. And you can certainly still use the edge or side of a shield to still do normal bludgeoning shield bashes with a spiked shield.
There's no analogue on the weapon side of enhancements that works the same as bashing. Maybe there should be.
In any case, I'm just not comfortable with allowing a Medium heavy shield spike to do 1d10 points of damage. That level of damage is generally reserved for two handed or exotic weapons. Bashing applying only to actual shield bashes limits Medium shields to doing 1d8 points of damage, which is on par with maximums for other 1-handed weapons. Which is good, since a shield that does 1d8 points of damage is on its own BETTER than a weapon that can't double as a shield.
As for the 3.5 FAQ... that's fine for 3.5. But there's plenty of design philosophies that WotC had during 3.5 that we don't have for Pathfinder. One can CERTAINLY use the 3.5 FAQ to help decide on Pathfinder rulings... but just keep in mind that trying to cite it to prove points with us isn't always going to work. AKA: There's plenty of rulings in the 3.5 FAQ I disagree with. You've found one of them.
That's a good reason why it should be that way... I hope if that's the intent that perhaps the wording on shield spikes "increase the damage dealt by a shield bash" and "Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack" might be changed in the Update in order to not strongly suggest a very different interpretation.
Honestly, the wording on Shield Spikes is clear enough that I didn't even consider this any sort of problem, or at all vague as to how it would stack with enhancement bonuses, etc. If the intent is 100% contrary to this wording, the wording pretty clearly needs to be updated.
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Well, it wouldn't do 1d10 points of damage. A heavy spiked shield (medium) only does 1d6. It starts as 1d4, then increases as if by one size from the spikes to 1d6. The Bashing is what increases it by two more steps. So a normal heavy shield w/Bashing would do 1d8, and a spiked heavy shield w/Bashing would do 2d6. No 1d10. Your point stays the same though.
From a design philosophy, is it really a bad thing for an off-hand weapon with a +1 enhancement power to do 2d6 damage? A rogue with a short sword and any elemental enhancement could do the same thing. Granted, it wouldn't be as effective against a creature that could resist that type, though it can also be more effective against vulnerable creatures. Seems like a +1 Flaming Spiked Heavy Shield wouldn't really be that much of a difference.
@Karui: the difference being shield enhancements (incl. Bashing) are cheaper than weapon enhancements and relying on the separately accounted for Armor Enhancement (piercing rather than energy-type) for the extra damage makes further weapon enhancements roughly 1/2 as expensive vs. getting the extra damage via a Flaming (etc) Weapon Enhancement.
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I still don't really see the problem. The biggest reason is what you just pointed out, it's all on the Armor side of things. There's really no way to further improve that Shield Bash, you're basically stuck at 2d6+1 (and the only reason you get to use +1 enhancement on it is because of the Bashing quality). No other armor enhancements will help, and if you actually enchant the spikes themselves then you're starting over at a base +1 and higher again.
"Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description)."
With a regular weapon, you can enchant it normally and get it up as high as you want. Right now I have guys with +2 Something Bane Some Elemental Enchantment weapons in my 10th level Legacy of Fire game. We had a guy with a Shield Bash secondary attack in my Runelords game, and that thing never went above 2d6+1. Why? It was just too costly to really bump up the weapon side of things when he wanted more armor, that's why he was using a shield in the first place.
So yes, it's cheaper initially, but you're still using up a +1 slot on your shield that could be for more armor, and at higher levels, a base 2d6+1+half str on your shield bash really isn't anything. Especially when, unless you make those spikes a special material, anything that has a DR is basically laughing at the silly shield.
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From a design philosophy, is it really a bad thing for an off-hand weapon with a +1 enhancement power to do 2d6 damage? A rogue with a short sword and any elemental enhancement could do the same thing. Granted, it wouldn't be as effective against a creature that could resist that type, though it can also be more effective against vulnerable creatures. Seems like a +1 Flaming Spiked Heavy Shield wouldn't really be that much of a difference.
Kinda, yes. Because Bashing isn't a weapon quality. It's a shield quality. It's a LOT cheaper to buy, and is already sort of a sneaky way to game the system to upgrade your weapon.
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Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to
perform
a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a
weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus
deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8
points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon
when used to
bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus.
James, so far I've assumed that a medium heavy spiked shield with the bashing ability deals 2d6dmg. In my honest DM opinion, it's not a big deal as it can only be used in the off hand, so half STR bonus, and only one attack per round. To take full advantage of this feature, you need upwards of 5 feats to get to shield master, then more feats if you want improved and greater two-weapon fighting (i.e. only fighters can get there... no way paladins can do it).
So all things considered: 2d6 isn't broken, and it takes a while to get there (in an effective manner, 'cause just using sword and board (S/B) with TWF is a -4/-4 option... an 11th level fighter with shield master lets you do it at (S/S/S/B) -4/-4/-4/0...)
Karui, I don't see Bashing as excessively advantageous over Flaming at low levels, but at high levels where the $ difference between a +5 equivalent weapon and a +6 equivalent weapons (w/ Flaming, etc) is HUGE in comparison to the cost of a +2 Shield Enhancement to a +1 Shield Enhancement (and as Shield/Armor Enhancemetns are cheaper anyways, your AC enhancements are not going to be detrimented equivalently to how your offense is benefited). And this is ignoring the fact that besides not having Energy immunity/resistance issues, weapons damage is multiplied on Crits/Vital Strike. But per the current RAW, this is how it seems to work (which make Shield Fighting practically the best 2WF weapon, though VERY Feat intensive as PDK points out, so pretty much only mid-high level Fighters who put an unhealty amount of Feats into Shield Fighitng/2WF Feats can pull it off... and it's still probably sub-optimal offense-wise to just 2-Handing a weapon with a Ring of Shielding/Dancing Shield).
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Quandary - Like I said above, there's a very good reason why shields aren't the best TWF weapon. Because they aren't weapons. Getting that 2d6+1+half Str to damage is likely the farthest any TWF with a shield in their off hand will go, since to get more they'd have to actually upgrade the spikes as weapons. There's no other armor way to increase damage. And even then, that first enhancement bonus on the weapon/spike side is basically a wash, since Bashing gives you the +1 enhancement to attack/damage already which won't stack with the first +1 you put on your weapon. So you'll have to have your +1 Bashing shield, then add on another +2 or more worth of weapon enhancements to really start making it better.
So yes, it's a slightly cheaper way to get a decent off-hand weapon, but a TWF with an actual weapon in their offhand is going to be doing a LOT more later on than the shield guy. They won't bother with the extra 4K for the +2 armor/shield bit and will just start enhancing it like a weapon right off the bat.
One note to the above posters about off-hand.
Nothing in the rules say you have to have your shield in the off-hand. People generally put it there because it makes more sense. But, there's nothing requiring it to be there. And if you've boosted the shield up to be +2 Bashing spiked shield that does +2d6 (and maybe added a 'flaming' on it for another d6) then you'd be dumb not to move your shield to your main hand and use it for most of your attacks and use the short sword in your off hand.
There was even a thread about dual-wielding spiked shields, as it turned out to be cheaper than a regular weapon and increased the damage output significantly.
Again, another argument why they shouldn't stack.
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One note to the above posters about off-hand.
Nothing in the rules say you have to have your shield in the off-hand. People generally put it there because it makes more sense. But, there's nothing requiring it to be there. And if you've boosted the shield up to be +2 Bashing spiked shield that does +2d6 (and maybe added a 'flaming' on it for another d6) then you'd be dumb not to move your shield to your main hand and use it for most of your attacks and use the short sword in your off hand.
There was even a thread about dual-wielding spiked shields, as it turned out to be cheaper than a regular weapon and increased the damage output significantly.
Again, another argument why they shouldn't stack.
I think that issue was actually resolved, from this bit in Shield Bash:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
As far as it looks, you can't shield bash unless you use it as an off-hand weapon. As this is the only way to attack with a shield, I believe this issue is covered.
Also, enhancing a shield like you mentioned would be a bit different. Any enhancement bonus on the armor/shield end only applies to AC (the Bashing quality adds a +1 to hit/dmg, but that's separate). Getting Flaming and anything else would require you to separately enhance the shield separately as a weapon, which costs a normal weapon price.
I think that issue was actually resolved, from this bit in Shield Bash:Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.As far as it looks, you can't shield bash unless you use it as an off-hand weapon. As this is the only way to attack with a shield, I believe this issue is covered.
Also, enhancing a shield like you mentioned would be a bit different. Any enhancement bonus on the armor/shield end only applies to AC (the Bashing quality adds a +1 to hit/dmg, but that's separate). Getting Flaming and anything else would require you to separately enhance the shield separately as a weapon, which costs a normal weapon price.
Ah, ok, didn't read the thread full through. However, I was referring to a spiked shield. So, a bashing spiked shield could have 2d6 + 1d6 for the flaming. Yes, the flaming would be on the spike, not the shield, but the argument is that you are able to stack the damage from the spike and the bashing element of the shield. If that is the case, then there is no reason why the flaming on the spike shouldn't stack as well. Again, rather powerful all for the cost of a +2 shield (+1 bashing) and a +2 weapon (+1 flaming).
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mdt, this issue has been discussed to bits in other thread. You can only shield bash as a off hand attack, so only once per round. Twice if you have improved TWF. Thrice if you have greater TWF. But chances are you won't be able to pull it off as a decent fighter if you take all those feats. I currently play a 11th level fighter in a local Second Darkness campaign, and I planned to go this route, but now I'm not sure... It's going to be better for my character to keep enhancing his longsword (weap focus, weap specializ. greater weap focus longsword so far, with stand still, step up feat, combat reflex, shield focus, Power Attack and TWF)
So far I've been using longsword in the main, with some awesome damage thanks to the beautiful Paizo-ified Power Attack feat. I was planning to take Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and Shield Master, along with Greater Shield Focus, but I think I'll just take Greater Shield Focus. The alternative delays my taking of the Greater Weapon Specialization Longsword about four levels... the "super shield guy" build is horribly, horribly feat intensive, even for a fighter, and I might just have to forget about it. If I "do" go for it, there's no way in heck I could then afford Improved or Greater TWF...
So 2d6 with the one offhand shield attack per round? big deal. The power of the shield-series feats are not in the damage output: it's in the fact that you just slammed your foe in the teeth and that he fell prone to the ground after hitting the dungeon wall behind him. It's about battlefield control. Not damage. This is why, perhaps, the system has been built to be so feat intensive: it's to perhaps limit this tactic to ONE attempt per round, so as not to get fighters running around with Greater TWF and proning three guys per round BEFORE swording them while their down with the main hand...
Ok PDK, but I still see no reason why, if you are allowing the effects of the spike and shield bash feat to stack to get 2d6, why the 1d6 flaming enchantment on the spike would not apply to the shield bash upping the damage to 3d6. That was a main point I made earlier on why it could be considered rather powerful.
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It would I believe. However, you have to purchase the weapon enhancements instead of armor enhancements. So you'd need to spend 4,000 to get a +1 Bashing enhancement, then another 8,000 to get a +1 Flaming enhancement. And the +1 weapon enhancement wouldn't stack with the +1 bonus that the Bashing quality gives, so all you'd get for that 8,000 is Flaming.
Just a quick "meh" thing I've noticed with (a pointing it out more than a commentary on it).
Lets say a fighter picks up the improved shield bash feat for whatever reason, without two weapon fighting.
Now during a fight the fighter gets disarmed. Rather than picking up the weapon and provoking he decides to shield bash with his shield...
But shield bashing has to be done as an off hand weapon, it can in fact only be done as an off hand weapon... since he doesn't have a primary weapon... he has to... what punch? Kick? Armor spike them?
The wording presented is troublesome since it means this tactic is suddenly regulated to being one only useful for two weapon melees types.
Since it's only off hand you couldn't have Captain America either...
What's more it means that two weapon fighting with a shield brings "handiness" back into the game, since it is the only situation currently where you could have a primary weapon that is light and an off handed weapon that is one handed... which means you are taking some odd penalties.
(the classic "iconic" example of this would be a fighter with a heavy shield and a short sword)
Since the combat chart only decides penalties based off of the off hand you are taking -4/ -4 to hit (if you have the feats) even though your weapon "types" are the same as the ranger with a long sword and a short sword (or a scimitar and kukri... Battle axe and hand axe).
It simply adds WAY too much complexity to what should be a simply tactic.
Uhm,
I don't think it works like that. You can make an 'off-hand' attack without ever using your 'primary hand' attack. It just follows the rules for an off-hand attack (can only make one, half-str, etc). You wouldn't even get the TWF penalties since you technically wouldn't be TWFing. You'd just only be able to use the single off-hand attack and gain half-strength with the shield bash (how we've done it at my table).
I'd go with mdt's logic in that event. Just treat it as a normal attack, but 'off-hand', so half strength to damage, less power attack benefit, etc.
Again special rules for a situation that doesn't need them, why should he suffer penalties when he's simply attacking with a single weapon? Even a dagger doesn't have this problem. He's spent a feat (which makes it as expensive as an exotic weapon) and now the attack is less than useful... still regulated to something only for two weapon melees.
It still doesn't change the other parts of what I pointed out -- A light and one handed weapon giving the same penalties as two one handed weapons.
In the end the entire idea isn't needed, doesn't make sense, and simply adds a new subset of rules.
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I would assume he suffers the slight penalties because he isn't attacking with a weapon, he's attacking with a shield. Not exactly easy to put all your force into since it's such a wide blunt thing.
In any case, I'm not sure what the problem is. Seems simple enough to me. Use it as an off-hand weapon normally, and if you want to use it by itself, then fine, do so. -shrug-
slight penalties is a disservice in describing it Karui.
First off if it is your only attack method you are losing half your strength in damage, and at least a full multiplier in damage from power attack, as if it is a light weapon (which it is not since you take higher penalties for it).
Secondly even improvised weapons give full strength if you are attacking with one by itself (in addition to the full power attack multiplier),
The shield was designed for attacking too, by both game mechanics (it's a martial weapon even without the improved shield bash feat) and "real life" accounts -- if its an "odd weapon" sort of thing then it should instead be handled as an improvised weapon.
Finally you still haven't even touched on the discrepancy created by the use of a light weapon with a heavy shield -- now the only case where you can two weapon fight and it matters which hand is your "off hand".
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It's a tough issue... normally I'd be inclined to say that if you have a longsword in the main, a shortsword in the offhand, and you're just attacking once this round with the shortsword, that there is no penalty 'cause you're not TWFing...
However...
The wording of the Shield Master feat (i.e. No two-weapon penalties when attacking with a shield) could indicate that due to the shield bash wording in the equipment section (i.e. shield bashing is always a off hand attack), shield bashing is always at -2 or -4 (light or heavy shield, respectively).
I think I'm going to go with "no penalty if used only once a round with no other attack", as if you're using a short sword in the off hand and you're attacking only once a round with it... This allows for a normal charge + shield bash at the regular +2 to hit instead of +2 -4 = -2... I think the intent of the Shield Master wording was in the context of a full attack action (i.e. 11th level fighter sword/sword/sword/board at -4/-4/-4/0 instead of -4/-4/-4/-4)