I haven't seen any official mass-combat rules. This may be because it's a role playing game instead of a war game, or because the combat rules are meant to handle small groups of players instead of dozens of GM controlled characters potentially lead by the party.
There will probably be 3rd party publisher materials to address this, though. And perhaps official materials one day as well, I don't know.
It does sound like Warhammer's the game you want to play though.
It does make me wonder about employing volley fire against PCs.
An area effect with a reflex DC based on the attack bonus of the attackers? In this case, deflect arrows and such abilities would count as evasion or improved evasion, I'd think.
There's the old route of making a bucketload of direct attacks, of course, but it seems a bit off for massed fire that is going for saturation rather than individual accuracy.
Tome of Battle had rules for this. Basically it takes 10 archers to fire a volley, they fire into an area of a 10 foot square, and everyone in that area has to make a reflex save DC 15+any magical enhancement on the arrows or take damage as if hit by the arrow (1d6 for shortbows or 1d8 for longbows). Something close to that anyway, I'm simply typing from memory.
I just want to say that personally I adore the Tome of Battle. It doesn't provide many mass combat simulation type rules, but rather has rules and shows ways of running an epic battle as if it were an adventure. Instead of controlling the troops, your party runs around sabotaging siege weaponry, cutting supply lines, helping to rally routed troops, reconnaisance, and maybe assassinating the enemy general. All being, themselves, small skirmish encounters like D&D proper but having a visible effect on the whole battle as it rages around you.
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Tome of Battle had rules for this. Basically it takes 10 archers to fire a volley, they fire into an area of a 10 foot square, and everyone in that area has to make a reflex save DC 15+any magical enhancement on the arrows or take damage as if hit by the arrow (1d6 for shortbows or 1d8 for longbows). Something close to that anyway, I'm simply typing from memory.
I just want to say that personally I adore the Tome of Battle. It doesn't provide many mass combat simulation type rules, but rather has rules and shows ways of running an epic battle as if it were an adventure. Instead of controlling the troops, your party runs around sabotaging siege weaponry, cutting supply lines, helping to rally routed troops, reconnaisance, and maybe assassinating the enemy general. All being, themselves, small skirmish encounters like D&D proper but having a visible effect on the whole battle as it rages around you.
+1 on recommendation of Heroes of Battle. It's 3.5ed, but the design philosophy of Battles As Dungeons translates well to any DnD style tabletop game.
-t
Meatrace I want to be sure I understand, do you mean "Heroes of Battle" or "Tome of Battle"? They are different books so I want to be sure I'm not just on the same page as you but in the same book.
I have a copy of Heroes of Battle and I agree with the assessment you posted here if that is the book you are talking about.
Meatrace I want to be sure I understand, do you mean "Heroes of Battle" or "Tome of Battle"? They are different books so I want to be sure I'm not just on the same page as you but in the same book.
I have a copy of Heroes of Battle and I agree with the assessment you posted here if that is the book you are talking about.
Yup my bad, Heroes of Battle. They're next to each other on my bookshelf and I got them mixed up when I glanced over.
Heroes of Battle is a pretty great book, I always tend to like Dave Noonan's new rules and ideas.
Cool, I will look into Heroes of Battle.
As for the rules, I was rather leaning away from Reflex saves because IMHO you should have only your flat-footed AC...things like dodge, mobility, and Dex seem ill-suited to protect you from, basically, a rain of arrows saturating your square. I started with Reflex by treating the hail of arrows as most like a breath weapon, but continued consideration moves me away from that approach.
I was thinking it was more that each archer shoots for a specific square (AC 5, range penalties/multishot, etc. apply), likely hit that square, then a basic 50% miss chance (they're just shooting into the sqaure rather than targeting individuals, after all). To give weight to the target's armor, I would add the target's flat-footed AC to this miss chance. A tank might get up to 75% miss chance--appropriate given heavy armor and shield and natural armor, plus size and deflections and luck bonuses, etc.--but the "nimble" PCs or those just not heavily armored would get not much better than the basic 50% chance. Damage would be by arrow or bolt, so if 3 small longbow arrows beat the miss chance (including armor), it's 3d6 damage. Multiple targets in a square would be more complex, but also very rare. Large creatures taking up more than one square, naturally, are a bigger target.
Well, you can see why I was hoping to find some rules on it...now to locate and check my old heropes of battle book, which already has multiple recommendations for it directly above.
Edit: Found it, p68-70 has a lot on volley of arrows, a good starting point, I will modify a bit, but thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for. --carpjay
I think the HoB rules keep it relatively simple. You say they should be effectively flat footed, but what about shields? Have you never seen a battle scene in a movie where they raise their shields over them to protect from an arrow volley? Not 100% effective but keeps everyone from being gutted.
You have to imagine that most soldiers on a field of battle are maybe 1st level Warriors or Fighters if not commoners. A reflex save DC 15 vs. 1d8 damage is going to put a cramp in a lot of their style. While I appreciate your rules suggestion in a more simulationist sense, if you're running a big battle you don't want a single arrow volley to take up like 5 minutes of table time, which is why I prefer the HoB's elegant solution. Just my 2CP.
"You say they should be effectively flat footed, but what about shields?"
Actually, I did list shields with the factors that I would include, but I called it all flat-footed in general...sorry, sloppy terminology on my part! If shields lifted while running, I would certainly use that for AC (or added miss chance, or bonus to reflex), perhaps even +4 for a normal +2 shield.
Yes, I am trying to keep it short and sweet...the targets could be the PCs themsleves, or they could be ordering/directing lower-level allies, OR in a later adventure they and allies will be firing on others, so I want it to be consistent and fair.
As I said, I think the book cited hits it pretty well, and I would be looking most likely to substitute some AC-based protection in place of or attached tot he reflex save as my primary tweak. An AC-based Reflex save would give me my armor-component, but would also reward the mobile types because their Reflex saves are that much better for having good dex (in general).
Things to think about, but I feel pretty good with the book to start from.
I hear you, and I would probably tweak the same way. I'm thinking base shield bonus (but not armor) to the Ref. save as well as any Deflection bonuses. To compensate you might increase the base reflex save DC by half the BAB of the archers (average).