1) Can Phantom Steed be used for a mounted charge?
The spell description states it doesn't participate in combat but I don't really see how this can interfere with charge actions. And then there is a lance... In "real" charges the mount's mass adds quite a bit of the momentum to the punch, which is not the case with etherial phantom sted. This leaves me in some doubt.
2) Can it be used by Large or even larger casters? My answer is going to be "yes" since nowhere in the spell description it's stated otherwise ("it can carry you and a little bit more", that is), but I'm not 100% sure.
Thanks in advance.
dubadam wrote: 1) Can Phantom Steed be used for a mounted charge?
The spell description states it doesn't participate in combat but I don't really see how this can interfere with charge actions. And then there is a lance... In "real" charges the mount's mass adds quite a bit of the momentum to the punch, which is not the case with etherial phantom sted. This leaves me in some doubt.
2) Can it be used by Large or even larger casters? My answer is going to be "yes" since nowhere in the spell description it's stated otherwise ("it can carry you and a little bit more", that is), but I'm not 100% sure.
Thanks in advance.
1. Not if the text is clear that it doesn't participate in combat. If you use a horse to charge then you are using it in combat, which the rules specifically state that you can't do.
2. The first sentance in spell description states: "You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature". (emphasis mine). So I'm afraid that only medium sized creatures could use this spell. But I'm not really sure that it would be such a game balance issue if a large pc (Goliath for example) would use this and gain a huge horse. I'd stay away from making it bigger though or changing the type of animal. Seeing as the spell is meant for transportation and really nothing else.
Júlíus Árnason wrote:
2. The first sentance in spell description states: "You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature". (emphasis mine). So I'm afraid that only medium sized creatures could use this spell. But I'm not really sure that it would be such a game balance issue if a large pc (Goliath for example) would use this and gain a huge horse. I'd stay away from making it bigger though or changing the type of animal. Seeing as the spell is meant for transportation and really nothing else. Goliath's are not large, they're simply on the very tall side of Medium and have the powerful build feature that lets them use large weapons. So the standard phantom steed is fine for thier use.
Now note that the phantom steed is conjured specifically for it's rider and can't be used by anyone else. So I imagine a steed conjured for a large (or small) creature would be appropriately sized.
LazarX wrote: Júlíus Árnason wrote:
2. The first sentance in spell description states: "You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature". (emphasis mine). So I'm afraid that only medium sized creatures could use this spell. But I'm not really sure that it would be such a game balance issue if a large pc (Goliath for example) would use this and gain a huge horse. I'd stay away from making it bigger though or changing the type of animal. Seeing as the spell is meant for transportation and really nothing else. Goliath's are not large, they're simply on the very tall side of Medium and have the powerful build feature that lets them use large weapons. So the standard phantom steed is fine for thier use.
Now note that the phantom steed is conjured specifically for it's rider and can't be used by anyone else. So I imagine a steed conjured for a large (or small) creature would be appropriately sized. You're right, I always have it in my head that Goliaths are large... I've even played Goliaths....
Júlíus Árnason wrote:
If you use a horse to charge then you are using it in combat
Well, there are many ways to use a mount in combat without having one to participate in it. To be precise, the spell description says that Phantom Steed "does not fight" - IMO this means one cannot use it for bull rushing or trampling (for obvious reasons). For a charge (or for Ride-by-Attack) one just needs it's mount to move in a straight line, and for this task PS fits perfectly.
Júlíus Árnason wrote:
You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature". (emphasis mine). So I'm afraid that only medium sized creatures could use this spell.
Nowhere in the rules it is stated that a mount have to be larger than it's rider. For example, a pony (medium-sized creature) can be used as a mount for a dwarf (also medium-sized). For "natural" mounts it's just happened so that they are most suitable for human-sized creatures. It does not have to be the same with "magical" mounts IMO.
I'm going to weigh in on the side that the phantom steed, lacking mass isn't going to give you the basis for a proper charge.
LazarX wrote: I'm going to weigh in on the side that the phantom steed, lacking mass isn't going to give you the basis for a proper charge. And here we come to the second question! Large creature on a PS DOES have the mass necessary for a proper charge.
Sorry for bringing real life physics into a fantasy world.
LazarX wrote: I'm going to weigh in on the side that the phantom steed, lacking mass isn't going to give you the basis for a proper charge. Considering you can charge WITHOUT a mount I find your argument lacking at best.
Beyond that the spell is a shadow spell which mean it is real and does have mass, and is "real".
This claptrap about "Lacking mass" is complete and utter nonsense -- it has enough mass to carry you and your armor et al.
Also you can Designate someone else as a rider for the phantom steed allowing them to right on it too.
Abraham spalding wrote:
Also you can Designate someone else as a rider for the phantom steed allowing them to right on it too.
But if you check the spell, the designation has to be done during the casting of the spell. Once done, no one else can use it.
Abraham spalding wrote: Considering you can charge WITHOUT a mount I find your argument lacking at best. Yes, one can charge without a mount, but the point was to obtain double/triple damage with a lance - something that cannot be achieved without a mount.
Abraham spalding wrote: it has enough mass to carry you and your armor et al Actually, "it's magic". PS doesn't have to have a mass. But it is not stated that it really doesn't, you have a point there.
dubadam wrote: LazarX wrote: I'm going to weigh in on the side that the phantom steed, lacking mass isn't going to give you the basis for a proper charge. And here we come to the second question! Large creature on a PS DOES have the mass necessary for a proper charge.
Sorry for bringing real life physics into a fantasy world. And again the Goliath is not a LARGE creature, it's a medium creature with the powerful build feature. The steed however is specifically designated as NOT usable in combat. also by the text of the spell
LazarX wrote: And again the Goliath is not a LARGE creature, it's a medium creature with the powerful build feature. The Goliath has nothing to do with my questions. It was not me who first mentioned it. So please stop mention it.
You can imagine any Large creature with enough wizard/sorcerer/bard levels to summon a PS to get the whole idea.
LazarX wrote: The steed however is specifically designated as NOT usable in combat. also by the text of the spell It DOES NOT FIGHT. By the text of the spell. That's all. I do not see why one can't fight from it's back.
It doesn't say it isn't useful in combat it states that it does fight:
"You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horse-like creature (the exact coloration can be customized as you wish). It can be ridden only by you or by the one person for whom you specifically created the mount. A phantom steed has a black head and body, gray mane and tail, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves that make no sound. It has what seems to be a saddle, bit, and bridle. It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it."
Completely different statement.
Does Not Fight means it does not fight, not 'cannot be used in combat'.
Does Not Fight is an entirely different sentence than cannot be used in combat. For example, a pacifist does not fight. That does not mean they cannot heal someone who is fighting (which would be them being used in combat).
A PS does not fight which means it does not bite or kick anyone. It only obeys it's rider and moves where it is told. If it is told to run past an enemy at full speed, it will. If the rider spears the enemy with a lance as it runs past, then the rider is attacking, not the PS.
Overrun, Trampling, etc requires the animal to be part of the attack, so the PS would be unable to contribute I would think. As to 'mass', the spell seems to indicate that it is a real horse created from shadow. So it should have substance and mass.
My group always plays so that you can charge with it, but it doesn't attack with hooves or bite, as others have said.
mind you, it is very risky going into melee combat with it especially if flying. it is fast, but super squishy.
the 3.5 spell compendium has a phantom stag spell for druids that does attack and is pretty tough, but otherwise very similar to phantom steed.
I once had a wizard in a campaign with some fighter levels, and this was his primary spell (combined with the Thunder Lance spell, which our DM graciously allowed to treat as true lance for purposes of his feats and fighting ability, but I digress).
We ruled that the PS could be led into combat as any non-war-trained mount, but you had to make the ride skill check to do so (see the Ride skill, I think DC 20), and when there, it was still just guiding my PC around, not making attacks itself (as has been stated above many times). Yes, it could charge for the extra damage multiplier. (If an unmounted fighter could charge in at high speed with a lance without the motion of his running disturbing the holding and couching of the lance, he might also get the extra damage for the charge, but we never really went there...just throwing it on the table.)
Keep in mind, like any flying steed, if you take this into battle, it becomes a target, and as flying steeds go, this one is pretty fluffy.
The desire to use the PS in combat led me to develop my own spells, which I never got to use in the campaign. Starting at 4th level I had Kali's Phantom Charger, which replaced the the long duration with merely rounds/level, but added sturdier AC and HP that scaled with CL. I added spells of each level 4 through 9...by the time I got to 9th level spells I'm sure I was way out of balance, adding fear effects and energy resistance as well as the steed's own attacks, but you get the idea...a modifed version of this spell would be great to make it more usable for combat, and that could include a clear description that the summoned creature was a warhorse-type.
Carpjay wrote: I once had a wizard in a campaign with some fighter levels, and this was his primary spell (combined with the Thunder Lance spell, which our DM graciously allowed to treat as true lance for purposes of his feats and fighting ability, but I digress). I actually made these into items (spurs that don't work if attached to magic footwear). Using Mount and Phantom Steed. Basically, a permanent 'squishy' mount. Click the spurs together and a mount appears next to you that only you can use. It acts just like a horse from either spell once summoned. If it gets killed, it disappears (it's a magical construct), but you can recreate it by reactivating the item.
Carpjay wrote: I once had a wizard in a campaign with some fighter levels, and this was his primary spell (combined with the Thunder Lance spell, which our DM graciously allowed to treat as true lance for purposes of his feats and fighting ability, but I digress).
We ruled that the PS could be led into combat as any non-war-trained mount, but you had to make the ride skill check to do so (see the Ride skill, I think DC 20), and when there, it was still just guiding my PC around, not making attacks itself (as has been stated above many times). Yes, it could charge for the extra damage multiplier. (If an unmounted fighter could charge in at high speed with a lance without the motion of his running disturbing the holding and couching of the lance, he might also get the extra damage for the charge, but we never really went there...just throwing it on the table.)
Keep in mind, like any flying steed, if you take this into battle, it becomes a target, and as flying steeds go, this one is pretty fluffy.
The desire to use the PS in combat led me to develop my own spells, which I never got to use in the campaign. Starting at 4th level I had Kali's Phantom Charger, which replaced the the long duration with merely rounds/level, but added sturdier AC and HP that scaled with CL. I added spells of each level 4 through 9...by the time I got to 9th level spells I'm sure I was way out of balance, adding fear effects and energy resistance as well as the steed's own attacks, but you get the idea...a modifed version of this spell would be great to make it more usable for combat, and that could include a clear description that the summoned creature was a warhorse-type.
Yes, I am fully aware of PS brittleness, but it's OK if my character isn't going to do more than one charge on it anyway.
I guess Ride checks should be a bit easier on a PS - I highly doubt it has any emotions so it's not afraid of combat and its rider has little trouble (if any) controlling it.
Regarding the absence of good "mount" spells - well, I'll have to bear with it.
dubadam wrote: Yes, I am fully aware of PS brittleness, but it's OK if my character isn't going to do more than one charge on it anyway.
I guess Ride checks should be a bit easier on a PS - I highly doubt it has any emotions so it's not afraid of combat and its rider has little trouble (if any) controlling it.
Of course, with Ride-By, it's still a sweet deal, and once you start flying you should have a nice Fly skill, which is new to PF. Have fun with this, I wish I got to keep playing mine in that other campaign way back when.
Please note that in an earlier thread about dancing weapons James as already stated that dancing weapons benefit from all feats you have, so you could have a dancing lance do a ride by spirited charge attack and then cast a spell at the end of the movement. I figured it up and an EK could do about 3d8+90 damage on the charge, and still cast a spell this way (assuming power attack, 2 fighter levels, greater weapon spec, and arcane strike).
Just fancy enough to make them not like you.
dubadam wrote: Júlíus Árnason wrote:
You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature". (emphasis mine). So I'm afraid that only medium sized creatures could use this spell.
Nowhere in the rules it is stated that a mount have to be larger than it's rider. For example, a pony (medium-sized creature) can be used as a mount for a dwarf (also medium-sized). For "natural" mounts it's just happened so that they are most suitable for human-sized creatures. It does not have to be the same with "magical" mounts IMO.
Hey, that's a pretty good point! I feel like the phantom steed will always be a Large creature because the size is specifically stated in the spell description, but I guess a Large rider could ride the Large phantom steed.
Now I have a question about its carrying capacity...
Quote: It can bear its rider's weight plus up to 10 pounds per caster level. I take this to mean that if the rider weighs 100 lb, that is the rider's weight. Any gear carried by the rider is limited by the 10 pounds per caster level. Is this correct?
A question came up in my game a while back as to whether the rider's equipment is part of the rider's weight? I was unsure at first, but then, I realized that if this were the case, the 10 lb/level limit would be somewhat pointless because a rider usually wouldn't be carrying more than their personal load anyway. So, if the p.s. could carry "rider + rider's load" as the rider's weight, there probably wouldn't be a need for this mount to carry additional 10 lb/level.
Anyway, so I ruled that the "rider's weight" is just the weight of his body, not his gear. Therefore, a 10th-level Wizard can conjure a phantom steed that can carry the weight of the rider, plus 100 lb in gear. If the rider weighs 100 lbs, that is a total max of 200 lb, and if the rider is 250 lb, that is a total max of 350 lb, so there can still be significant variation based on the rider, but the weight beyond that has a consistent cap. So, am I correct on this?
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