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To be perfectly honest, this is the aspect of the Faction system that most troubles me. The way things work, being a Pathfinder just isn't a sustainable option for a career adventurer, because so much of what you find goes into the vaults never to be seen again. Being able to requisition anything on your campaign sheets back out helps, at least, but to get ahead, you must play a political game that strikes me as ultimately being counter to the point of the Society.
Actually that IS the point of the Society. They're not neutral, they manipulate ALL of the factions to serve thier own purposes. Kind of like the Harpers save that they make no pretense of being "good".
So yes... you're a tool. All of you. :)
Not sure I see the this the same way. I don't think that the society does manipulate the factions the way you say they do. I percieve the factions as using the guise of the society for thier own needs.
I think that they are somewhat powerless to do anything about it, however as long as it doesn't interfer with thier goals they will put up with it.
As far as magic items being locked in vaults never to be seen again. I think thats sort of a "Area 51 meets Wearhouse 13" sort of vibe that is means that they hide away very danagerous things. It doesn't say however that it document and make available details of said items. Providing information is one of the things I believe is very importaint to the society.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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And even a cursory reading of Seekers of Secrets bears this out. The Pathfinder Society, as a whole, explicitly has no political viewpoint and are as neutral as possible. They will take sides, but only in exchange for what they want - knowledge and artifacts, mostly in that order.
Ah, but to what end?
Think about it...The Pathfinder Society is a global network of powerful agents of all nationalities, collecting information and retrieving powerful artifacts. The Decemvirate not only controls this apparatus, but 'owns' the most diverse and complete collection of magical writings and magical items. They 'allow' the chaotic Faction battles to go on simply because while they are focused on one upping the others, they're blind to the threat the Society poses.
I dare you to name any organization better set up for World Domination.
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In Pathfinder Society every character serves to masters, I doubt that everyone in in the Society serves two masters. There are some that will make it to Absolom, do thier training and then just set out and report back whenever they feel like it.
And you haven't satisfied me that PS manipulates the factions. Sending people on missions is hardly manipulation. It goes well beyond that into direct instruction. If the Pathfinder Society was dropping hints to Chelexian members that a valuable magic item was available in the world so they take that information to the Aspis Consortium have them spend thier resources and time to retrive said object only to steal it away from them bringing it home. That would be manipulation.
And as far the "and the don't" You lost me. WHat is it that they don't? Don't share historical information? Because I can go to referances where they do. So what can i say, I'm slow. Help me out here.
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Any of the six great empires of the Inner Sea region, for a start. That's the five factions plus Absalom, incidentally. Between them, if the Soceity makes even a hint of a move like you're suggesting , the vast majority of its' agents will desert and most of its' powerr base will be surrounded by hostile cities that can field equal firepower to them, if not far greater. If they still actually had any Pathfinders at thispoint they might make a fight of it, but they were all really working for the people tb Decemvirate is trying to conquer. This makes no sense, sorry
No not really. If anything, it would mean that more agents would role in just to work as a preventative measure.
All I can tell you is that after running quite a few of the PFS adventures and having read both the Seeker of Secrets and Guide to Absolom books I don't get that vibe at all and I have those PDFs with me.
But if that's the way you want to run your home game, that's fine, but thats not how it works in organized play.
Most Pathfinders are beholden to the Society and its precepts and nothing else. Very few Pathfinders are also loyal to a faction--it just happens that everyone in Pathfinder Society Organized Play are those Pathfinders.
I appreciate that you're trying to strip the abstract from this, but you can't. This *is* an abstract system. Blending the prestige system with your faction was a great fit. Since you're not playing the non-faction Pathfinders in the Society, what does it matter where they get their gear?
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Second, it's directly counter to the 'no PVP rule.' I don't know if this was your intention, and in fact I think it wasn't. But I've played at about thirty tables and met maybe 60-70 players individually in the New England area. And I can count on one hand the number who wouldn't take +3 PA even if it meant denying the other faction members sitting at the table any PA or treasure for the session. There's just something about playing for a team that seems to bring out the worst in people, and nowhere is it more evident than many of the tables I've played at. People just don't seem to be coming to have fun and enjoy an adventure so much as they're coming to try to win points for 'the team.'
To be honest, I haven't seen any faction missions that encourage PvP since Murder on the Silken Caravan, and while the faction missions can take time, it is part of the game that I enjoy, so I don't really mind spending time on it.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For what it's worth:
As a player, I've begun openly sharing my faction missions with the rest of the party, as soon as they become useful information.
"My Qadiran superiors have indicated that our investigations are likely to lead us to a shipyard. It might be helpful to pray for water breathing today, my devout friend."
I've been challenged about this once, and my ready reply is: "I have loyalty to my shadowy Qadiran masters, yes, and to the Hooded Council of Ten, but my principal loyalty today is to you, my fellow Pathfinders, to whose benefit I commit the whole of my resources, and in whose hands I commend my life."
It just seems counterproductive to my character, to hoard sensitive information that we might use to sharpen our chances for survival.
While I'm certain instances like you describe have happened, I don't believe they're the majority or even more than the smallest percentage of the minority of tables played. And, to be perfectly frank, a few complaints does not a problem make. :-) I'll keep your feedback in mind, though. I'm not opposed to changing the Society when necessary.
As for your character, well, I can't really change the Society because your choice of character conflicts with the rules, can I? :-)
Most Pathfinders are beholden to the Society and its precepts and nothing else. Very few Pathfinders are also loyal to a faction--it just happens that everyone in Pathfinder Society Organized Play are those Pathfinders.To be honest, that doesn't work either. Where are these other Pathfinders getting their equipment? They presumably have to follow the same rules our characters do, which thoroughly force them to find a faction to back them up in the first place. It's also a stupid move on the Soceity's part to shove us all together where we're going to trip over each other. It's been my experience that (Faction > Society) whenever there's a choice between them for most players.
Only items bought with PA comes from a character's Faction. Everything else comes from shops in whatever town the character is in or directly from the Society. Everything that is collected during a scenario is turned in to the Society, NOT any of the Factions, who then gives each character a share of gold based on the value of the items found. So to me, Society comes before Faction unless it is over something that would piss your Faction off so much that you would not be able to cash in your character's PA in the future.
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Only items bought with PA comes from a character's Faction. Everything else comes from shops in whatever town the character is in or directly from the Society. Everything that is collected during a scenario is turned in to the Society, NOT any of the Factions, who then gives each character a share of gold based on the value of the items found. So to me, Society comes before Faction unless it is over something that would piss your Faction off so much that you would not be able to cash in your character's PA in the future.
Actually Chris Kenny is right. Your Prestige Award dictates the maximum gold cap of items you may purchase outside of a scenario. The Pathfinder society doesn't give you any additional rewards for completing their missions, they just allow you to keep the loot. However, rarely will the loot pertain to you character (in 24 scenarios not once have I purchased from the chronicle sheets) and it only means something if its value is greater than your max gold cap. Having a high max gold cap lets you optimize your gold spending and is far more important to the loot. Therefore, even though many of the faction missions seem to contradict interests of the society or put the society's integrity at risk, it is faction > society.
Bear in mind that this is a gameplay mechanic thrown in and though it doesn't make sense alot it is simply there to "enhance" the game. Although from my experience it's just a bothersome side mission that disrupts team mentality. So, after working with a party for a few adventures we decide that our characters have put their lives on the line for eachother so much that they are willing to work together on their faction missions and just get them out of the way...
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In fact, now that I think on it I will say that the New York City and Quebecois tables that I've gone to are mercifully free of this behavior. It's just that both of these areas are well beyond my normal 'play zone' and I can only get out there infrequently for cons. Anywhere in New England, expect faction infighting and be prepared to either be a jerk or lose PA.
In my opinion thats a real shame. Those troublesome players seem to be missing the point of the faction system. The faction system should be viewed as a jumping off point, as inspiration, for role playing. It is a chance to grasp some of the fundamentals of the shared game world and immerse yourself in the scenario. As more scenarios are played the faction missions allow for a sense of continuity whether you are playing with your regular gaming group or sitting down with a set of strangers at a con.
There is no competition between the factions as there was initially in year zero, so what is there to gain from stepping on your fellow player?
In my experience your right about the NYC crew. The folks from New Jersey and Pennsylvania are much the same. We play our characters and work together at the table. If one can help another character succeed (whether openly or "by acccident") most of us will. I don't know anyone that would purposely subvert anothers faction mission (though it does happen by mistake - oh, that explosion destroyed the item you needed - or, oh, I did not know you needed to talk to him when I beheaded him). But never on purpose. And we all get a kick from watching the most bizarre "in character" actions out of the blue when stuff is kept secrete by the player.
In the abstract sense, I see the Society as not yet revealed in terms of it's true influence and reach. The factions are as much autonomous in terms of their goals as they are dependant on the Pathfinder Society for the opportunities it presents. And the Society is quite happy to have these powerful nations send some of their catspaws to be used to further it's own plans. They and the Aspis Consortium remind me a bit of what the Silent Ones and the Seekers should have been in Living Greyhawk. Politically influential, working behind the scenes yet not powerful in an "in your face" kinda way.
If I were to suggest anything, I would say that it should be to make faction optional, somehow. Even if doing without one is a poor choice it should really be there.
Something to think about for Season 3, I suppose.
Edit: I suppose if you were to challenge me to actually come up with the mechanics for it, I would probably fit it into the existing system by introducing a "Pathfinder" Faction.
I agree it would be nice to have a "pure" Pathfinder Society faction, somewhat different than the regular factions. I also think factions from other nations (and Absolom itself) or power groups from across Golarion would be interesting and fun. But I like the faction system (I always liked meta orgs in LG - I would also like to see options for groups beyond or parallel to the Pathfinder Society available) and think it is a great tool to work from in character creation. And the Prestige system is a good way to measure ones level of achievement within whatever organization your loyalty lays with.
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If I were to suggest anything, I would say that it should be to make faction optional, somehow. Even if doing without one is a poor choice it should really be there.
Actually, I kind of see it as optional, already. I'll admit that I am in the minority, but (with one of my characters) I will often choose to not do a faction mission. If it doesn't fit her character and background, I won't do it. The only reason she gets PA is because I eat a scenario, or because another member of her faction is at the table and that character completed the task. In the spirit of keeping this discussion on topic I will state that I never interefere with that player accomplishing the goal in any way.
Also, if a "neutral" faction were to be available, I can even say I wouldn't have joined it - it wouldn't have fit her background. She is Chelaxian, and nothing will sway her from that cause, even the goals of her superiors.
I find that I have access to plenty of stuff, regardless. Admittedly, she is low enough level right now that it doesn't matter, but I've looked at sheets from my other character, and I think she would be pretty well outfitted if I were to just use whatever is available from the scenarios she's involved in. Besides, that makes it feel more "real" to me, not having access to every little thing you want.
Edit: I suppose if you were to challenge me to actually come up with the mechanics for it, I would probably fit it into the existing system by introducing a "Pathfinder" Faction. "Pathfinder" faction characters recieve one TPA per session completed, with no CPA awarded.
Actually, I think this may lead to even more PvP, especially if the reward for being part of this faction is reduced. Players may try to keep other players from accomplishing a faction mission if it would keep those characters on an even playing field, reward-wise. Also, often enough the table will destroy whatever it is that the Pathfinder Society sent the players after, as the item is detrimental to Golarion's existence. In the interest of being spoiler free, I won't give examples, but there have been items where everyone looks at each other and, playing their characters' alignments, decides to get rid of the artifact. A "Pathfinder Society Faction" player, obviously, would have serious issues with this, I would think.
What they seem to gain from it, frankly, is pleasure at screwing over another player without them being able to legitimately retaliate.
These people are jerks. They would be jerks even if there weren't a faction system. Sadly, it seems you share a table with jerks more often than I do. Frankly, I think that's what this thread is supposed to address. I like the discussion of alternates to the faction system (and even got pulled into it), but I think it should be held elsewhere, as there are all kinds of things that can be done for a "Society Story." In this thread, I'd like to see discussions of player behavior and how to deal with it. Start another thread. I know I would join in.
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There is no competition between the factions as there was initially in year zero, so what is there to gain from stepping on your fellow player?What they seem to gain from it, frankly, is pleasure at screwing over another player without them being able to legitimately retaliate. That's why I say the Faction system only seems to lead towards PvP over time. I have another pretty long explanation for how I see the faction system actually working in practice out here, but it'll probably have to wait a few hours until I can get a minute. But I'm curious to see how other people see it.
Are these adults you are gaming with?
I know on the rare occasion when it's come up at tables at local cons in NJ and PA, we (the DM's and players) make it very clear, immediatly, that intentionally ruining another's faction mission is unnaceptable behavior. With the misconception out of the way, I can't recall a single player that continued acting that way. It's simply not tolerated.
You seem to indicate the faction system is an excuse for the childish behavior of these individuals. Honestly, I think they would find a way to "act out" regardless of the game being played at the time.
I would recommend you make your way on down to NJ or PA for a convention or two if it's really that bad up your way. You would probably get a different view of things down here.
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For what it's worth:
As a player, I've begun openly sharing my faction missions with the rest of the party, as soon as they become useful information.
"My Qadiran superiors have indicated that our investigations are likely to lead us to a shipyard. It might be helpful to pray for water breathing today, my devout friend."
I've been challenged about this once, and my ready reply is: "I have loyalty to my shadowy Qadiran masters, yes, and to the Hooded Council of Ten, but my principal loyalty today is to you, my fellow Pathfinders, to whose benefit I commit the whole of my resources, and in whose hands I commend my life."
It just seems counterproductive to my character, to hoard sensitive information that we might use to sharpen our chances for survival.
::A cloaked woman at the bar turns. Hidden within her black billowing cloak bits of her youth, courtier's dress, and a simple dagger can be made out.::
"Sir... Your loyalties to your comrades in arms; and to the here and now above your other loyalties; and to your past or future... They are commendable. Furthermore, I find them both acceptable and inspiring to my own person. Would you mind, if I adapt the wording and philosophy behind them to best match my specific situation?"
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I think banning PvP from Organized Play is great.
But what actually constitutes PvP?
One PC attacking another or two PCs attacking one another are obvious examples.
But others fall into grey areas:
Can a PC cast an area effect spell that harms another player? Whith consent? or without consent from the targeted player?
Can a player attack a creature summoned by another player? Can a PC attack another players Eidolon, Familiar or Animal Companion? Can sayd creature attack another PC? Can a PC attack a combat trained or non-combatant animal/henchman of another player?
Can a player grapple, trip, disarm, sunder another PC/PC's weapon?
An interesting situation came up when we fought the most dreaded and vile of monsters... Harpies!
A player character failed his save to one of the harpies and began moving toward her. Another player character moves between the two but adjacent to the captivated character and strikes him for lethal damage. He then says, "If you move toward the harpy again, I will strike you for more lethal damage."
When presented with other options like attacking for subdual, grappling, or tripping the player character indicated wasn't effective at doing any of those...
What should have happenened here?
Would this change your answer?
Edit: I suppose if you were to challenge me to actually come up with the mechanics for it, I would probably fit it into the existing system by introducing a "Pathfinder" Faction. "Pathfinder" faction characters recieve one TPA per session completed, with no CPA awarded. Enough TPA to at least get the basics, so you can play, but lacking in both the bonus items department and falling behind on getting the 'good stuff'. Maybe make all Wayfinders available at crafting-cost or something to take a bit of the sting out of it, but since you're bizarrely set on Faction somehow being made important...
I would take a "Faction" like that for every. single. character...
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An interesting situation came up when we fought the most dreaded and vile of monsters... Harpies!
A player character failed his save to one of the harpies and began moving toward her. Another player character moves between the two but adjacent to the captivated character and strikes him for lethal damage. He then says, "If you move toward the harpy again, I will strike you for more lethal damage."
When presented with other options like attacking for subdual, grappling, or tripping the player character indicated wasn't effective at doing any of those...
What should have happenened here?
This is very interesting. To begin with, everyone is going to have an opinion about what they would do as the GM in this situation. It is easy in hindsight to dissect the player's actions, but GMs don't always have the leisure time to do so when they're on the spot in the middle of an encounter. So this is my opinion and how I would personally handle it.
I would first question the player who was committing the attack and see what his/her rationale was for attacking the PC. If it was as you suspected, I would ask how that player knew the effects of the harpy's song and how they think it could be countered. It sounds like that player was using out-of-game knowledge. Even if the player has the appropriate knowledge then I would tell them it won't work and they should try something else. I wouldn't allow it to trigger another Will save. So as far as PVP goes, that should end the issue. The character is free to trip, grapple, bullrush, whatever. Attacking for lethal is counterproductive.
The harpy's MO is to lure its victim to its location and club them into unconsciousness while they stand there stupefied.
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In fact, now that I think on it I will say that the New York City and Quebecois tables that I've gone to are mercifully free of this behavior. It's just that both of these areas are well beyond my normal 'play zone' and I can only get out there infrequently for cons. Anywhere in New England, expect faction infighting and be prepared to either be a jerk or lose PA
Not sure where in New England you're playing, but in CT, we've had most likely over 100 games, and not once have I noticed someone intentionally making someone else loose PA.
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"Sir... Your loyalties to your comrades in arms; and to the here and now above your other loyalties; and to your past or future... They are commendable. Furthermore, I find them both acceptable and inspiring to my own person. Would you mind, if I adapt the wording and philosophy behind them to best match my specific situation?"
"I am gratified beyond my power to express, to have won the notice and approval of one so worthy. I would be honored to provide you the means to your own goals."