Hey, I dunno if this is the right place for this thread, but I had a question.
I have a level 8 summoner. His eidolon has 11 evolution points. quadraped
He has claws, pounce, large, grab(claws), rake and resist fire 10.
This gives me 3 attacks at +15, and if one of 2 of them hit (and I make a trivial CMB check), I get 2 more rolls for the raking, also at +15. His AC hovers around 20 normally, and almost reaches 30 with barkskin and mage armor. His bonus to damage (from his base 28 strength and amulet of natural attacks is +10. This is not counting a likely bull's strength and enlarge.
Basically if he hits with all five attacks, he does a minimum of 55 damage, possibly much more, and it is quite often he hits with all five attacks.
Oh, are you saying, gosh, he has to make a grapple check? His CMB for grapple? +6 + 9 + 1 + (4) = +20 *without* buffs - not much has a CMD to compete.
Granted his will save is +2. And he's linked to me (who now is often flying *and* invisible.)
How is this equal *at* *all* with a barbarian, fighter, or other class? Cause not only can I make a full attack on a charge, but I can cast a spell the same round *and* flank to give the eidolon a +2 to hit.
Am I missing something here, because the party barbarian is feeling pretty useless.
Hey, I dunno if this is the right place for this thread, but I had a question.
I have a level 8 summoner. His eidolon has 11 evolution points. quadraped
He has claws, pounce, large, grab(claws), rake and resist fire 10.
This gives me 3 attacks at +15, and if one of 2 of them hit (and I make a trivial CMB check), I get 2 more rolls for the raking, also at +15. His AC hovers around 20 normally, and almost reaches 30 with barkskin and mage armor. His bonus to damage (from his base 28 strength and amulet of natural attacks is +10. This is not counting a likely bull's strength and enlarge.
Basically if he hits with all five attacks, he does a minimum of 55 damage, possibly much more, and it is quite often he hits with all five attacks.
Oh, are you saying, gosh, he has to make a grapple check? His CMB for grapple? +6 + 9 + 1 + (4) = +20 *without* buffs - not much has a CMD to compete.
Granted his will save is +2. And he's linked to me (who now is often flying *and* invisible.)
How is this equal *at* *all* with a barbarian, fighter, or other class? Cause not only can I make a full attack on a charge, but I can cast a spell the same round *and* flank to give the eidolon a +2 to hit.
Am I missing something here, because the party barbarian is feeling pretty useless.
Yeah thats kind of the idea, they are nerfing them left and right it seems, there is an olympic dps thread which last I checked they are the most damaging class by themselves (the eidolon) without the summoners dpr.
The only thing overpowered there is Pounce.
The only thing overpowered there is Pounce.
First, I want to say I'm enjoying it.
Second, I want to say the standard action summon and the 1/min per level is an excellent and balanced change from the summoner - if you want to summon, it's a *clear* advantage over a comparable wizard or sorcerer. The summons, being weaker by default, are not overpowered.
Third, the eidolon is too much. It fights way *way* better than a comparable fighter. It has two glaring weaknesses, first that it's attached to me. Second that it has a miserable will save. Last fight we had the barb got his save up to +11 will. There is no way for me to reach that, I'm at +2 will (and spend 4 rounds failing to hit someone under a sanctuary spell. )
The thing is, these weaknesses are *very* severe /when they come into play/. When they don't I show up the fighter classes.
There are two big problems with balance as I see it. First a full four points of that BAB come from the large increase. Does enlarge person give you a +8 to strength? Then why does selecting the large evolution give you +8 to strength, general step ups to large don't go that high. Second, pounce, although quadruped only, is 1 point.
I will admit, I'm sort of min/maxed on this build.
With the above changes (pounce being much more expensive, 3 or 4 points, and the strength from large being dialed back) it's a lot more workable, at base. I'd have about 20 AC, 22 instead of 28 strength, a +12 BAB (which is reasonable for level 8 fightan types, and lower than comparable fighters.) and if pounce cost more, I'd have fewer attacks, or more attacks without pounce.
The problem with balance is that he dominates in an action economy. I can attack with the edi, and buff every round. Gish can't do that. When you start adding the buffs (mage armor always up, +4 for shield, +3 for barkskin, Bulls strength for +2 hit/damage, enlarge) His armor class shoots up to 32+, his BAB goes up 2 and his damage by a lot, with all those attacks and he dominates. It's fun, but I find myself saying "I'm sorry my turn is taking so long" and everyone else is like, "No we're glad you're winning this fight for us."
I would lower the strength bonus, raise the cost of pounce, lower the evolution points slight and give more access to feats, if I expected this thing to be fair. I haven't done any of the math, but my gut feeling is the real power comes from the strength boost added to all the damn attacks.
I make this suggestion because I could deal with fewer evolution points and slight higher costed stuff *if* I had more access to feats. I would be happy as a player and feel less like I was beating the crap out of everyone else who's playing a core fighter.
Have you tried comparing your Eidolon to closest comparison in the core book? That being the Druid large cat animal companion.
They have...
the same BAB,
the same number attacks,
the same pounce,
the same rake,
the same base saves,
a similar grab (cat can grab with the bite as well)Its pretty close. Granted the Eidolon can surpass the animal companion, particularly at higher levels. But the scenerio you present would be very close to identical to what a druid + companion presents at the same level.
Oh, that does look startling close. Eidolon has higher AC (due to base form) and slightly higher strength/dex. (The cat with the point dumped into str has 24, versus my 28 Strength)
The cat is weaker at that level, but the druid is a stronger spellcaster. But it seems the cat is the best (combat-wise) of the druid animal companion choices.
Should the eidolon be better than the best AC at combat?
Have you tried comparing your Eidolon to closest comparison in the core book? That being the Druid large cat animal companion.
They have...
the same BAB,
the same number attacks,
the same pounce,
the same rake,
the same base saves,
a similar grab (cat can grab with the bite as well)Its pretty close. Granted the Eidolon can surpass the animal companion, particularly at higher levels. But the scenerio you present would be very close to identical to what a druid + companion presents at the same level.
Oh, that does look startling close. Eidolon has higher AC (due to base form) and slightly higher strength/dex. (The cat with the point dumped into str has 24, versus my 28 Strength)
The cat is weaker at that level, but the druid is a stronger spellcaster. But it seems the cat is the best (combat-wise) of the druid animal companion choices.
Should the eidolon be better than the best AC at combat?
The short answer is "Of course it should!" Like you said the druid is a more effective caster, and can even summon both more and better than the summoner with its spontaneous conversion to summon nature's ally, its access to 9th level spells, and its lack of a casting cap for doing so.
The edilon is almost all a summoner has and to even suggest that it should be of equivalent power to a superior class is absurd. Trust me, if your barbarian was showered with all of that buff love going around the edilon, it wouldn't be such an issue. Of course if I keep talking about how buffs are what makes an edilon powerful they'll come up with fluff saying that persistent magic of any kind interferes with the link like they did with armor.
Have you tried comparing your Eidolon to closest comparison in the core book? That being the Druid large cat animal companion.
Mistakes were made!
After a closer reading, I'm discovering that I can't take claws! I don't have limbs(arms) as a quadraped.
A better build would be
Large (4) Pounce (1) Tentacles (4), leaving me 2 points to play with.
This would give me a charge attack of +17/+12x4, (+15/+10x4 base), which is more reasonable.
I suspect your fighters aren't built very well. You can build an archer that cranks out close to 55HP/ round at that level.
This is somewhat true, the Barbarian in question is primarily built for melee and high defensive ability, not built to dish out super high damage each round. Regardless of this, there aren't many ways a non-archer could deal that sort of damage and maintain survivability, and it's not much fun to have to choose between a cookie cutter archer build or being out performed by someone's pet.
I suspect your fighters aren't built very well. You can build an archer that cranks out close to 55HP/ round at that level.
Yeah, to be frank, archery is some bulls**t.
Something to keep in mind is that the summoner doesnt compare well to the melee classes, its not an even comparison. You are better off comparing it to the druid. The druid has a badass pet, full casting, great buffs and can wild shape and get into the thick of things himself. The summoners pet is better, but his casting is weaker and his self buffing class features are not as strong. In playtests it really seemed like a druid and a summoner were a pretty even match. (particularly with a large cat pet with pounce).
So the question becomes, what does it have to be balanced against? Barbarians are a pretty weak class. A well built fighter can compete, but a barbarian probably cant. Its just how the classes are, mostly because its what we had to work with left over from 3.5, there is only so much you can change and remain backwards compatable.
Have you tried comparing your Eidolon to closest comparison in the core book? That being the Druid large cat animal companion.
They have...
the same BAB,
the same number attacks,
the same pounce,
the same rake,
the same base saves,
a similar grab (cat can grab with the bite as well)Its pretty close. Granted the Eidolon can surpass the animal companion, particularly at higher levels. But the scenerio you present would be very close to identical to what a druid + companion presents at the same level.
We all must keep in mind as well, The Eidolon is the summoner's source of power and strength. I certainly hope it does get more powerful than a druids animal companion :)
I'm still getting used to the 13th level Summoner in our campaign. 12 uses of Summon Monster VII (augmented of course) per day is a whole lot of fiendish T-Rex to help the Eidolon flank and gang up on just about ANYTHING.
I'm still getting used to the 13th level Summoner in our campaign. 12 uses of Summon Monster VII (augmented of course) per day is a whole lot of fiendish T-Rex to help the Eidolon flank and gang up on just about ANYTHING.
I played an all out summoner in 3.5 (a druid summoner with rashemi summoning, ashbound summoning and greenbound summoning) .... needless to say it was too much. At one time I had close to 15 wolves out at a time and it just slowed down combat WAY to much. I'd almost put a cap on the amount a character can have out at a time.
I played an all out summoner in 3.5 (a druid summoner with rashemi summoning, ashbound summoning and greenbound summoning) .... needless to say it was too much. At one time I had close to 15 wolves out at a time and it just slowed down combat WAY to much. I'd almost put a cap on the amount a character can have out at a time.
The PF Summoner can only have 1 spell-like ability Summon Monster running at a time, or it would truly be outrageous. Even still, an SLA that is better than the spell it mimics, usable 3 + casting stat modifer times per day = many more times use of your highest level summons. At lower levels, it's not as much of a problem. But when you start getting those SM VI's and higher, watch out, cause the Eidolon's going to have some significant help.
If you start to see Summoners in your campaign with any frequency, start prepping those dismissal/Banishment spells. You're going to need them!
The funny part is all you are doing is trading the Summoner standard action for standard action for a few rounds before you run out of spells...
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I played an all out summoner in 3.5 (a druid summoner with rashemi summoning, ashbound summoning and greenbound summoning) .... needless to say it was too much. At one time I had close to 15 wolves out at a time and it just slowed down combat WAY to much. I'd almost put a cap on the amount a character can have out at a time.The PF Summoner can only have 1 spell-like ability Summon Monster running at a time, or it would truly be outrageous. Even still, an SLA that is better than the spell it mimics, usable 3 + casting stat modifer times per day = many more times use of your highest level summons. At lower levels, it's not as much of a problem. But when you start getting those SM VI's and higher, watch out, cause the Eidolon's going to have some significant help.
If you start to see Summoners in your campaign with any frequency, start prepping those dismissal/Banishment spells. You're going to need them!
Essentially the summoners SLA means he can refresh his summoned creature or 'teleport' it anywhere within range as a standard action. He can also use it to summon spell like abilities as a standard action. 12 times per day.
But you have it backwards, the summoned creatures are more powerful at lower-mid levels than at higher levels.
I don't know Ogre... I've always liked having a Trumpet Archon at my beck and call...
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I don't know Ogre... I've always liked having a Trumpet Archon at my beck and call...
When you are 3rd level you can summon CR 1 creatures. When you are at 17th level you can summon CR 14 creatures.
Yeah the Trumpet Archon is great but relatively speaking as you go up in level the power level of the creatures goes down relative to the party level. It's a lot better under Pathfinder but there is definitely a decrease in relative power.
I don't know Ogre... I've always liked having a Trumpet Archon at my beck and call...When you are 3rd level you can summon CR 1 creatures. When you are at 17th level you can summon CR 14 creatures.
Yeah the Trumpet Archon is great but relatively speaking as you go up in level the power level of the creatures goes down relative to the party level. It's a lot better under Pathfinder but there is definitely a decrease in relative power.
Ok I see what you are getting at now... However Trumpet Archon. Sorry I'm still loving that part (is giddy with the thought of having a level 14 cleric*doubleplusgood! as a ..... that has to obey lots of times a day).
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Ok I see what you are getting at now... However Trumpet Archon. Sorry I'm still loving that part (is giddy with the thought of having a level 14 cleric*doubleplusgood! as a ..... that has to obey lots of times a day).I don't know Ogre... I've always liked having a Trumpet Archon at my beck and call...When you are 3rd level you can summon CR 1 creatures. When you are at 17th level you can summon CR 14 creatures.
Yeah the Trumpet Archon is great but relatively speaking as you go up in level the power level of the creatures goes down relative to the party level. It's a lot better under Pathfinder but there is definitely a decrease in relative power.
Yeah... they've made summoning a lot better. Kind of a bummer that Summon monster 7 and 8 aren't very good for good characters though. I guess Lillends are decent and there are some ok tanks. Hopefully Bestiary 2 brings some nice Proteons and other cool creatures into the summoning mix that good characters can call up.
I guess I'm still impressed by the augmented fiendish T-Rex who can somewhat reliably swallow a Glabrezu whole. That swallow whole trick messes up a lot of CR appropriate critters.
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I guess I'm still impressed by the augmented fiendish T-Rex who can somewhat reliably swallow a Glabrezu whole. That swallow whole trick messes up a lot of CR appropriate critters.
Assuming T-Rex is actually able to swallow him whole which I find questionable with the demons teleport, dispel magic, and reverse gravity at well. The Glabrezu can easily carve his way out, most likely in one round.
"Special Attacks swallow whole (2d8+11, AC 17, hp 15)"
Given the demonic acid resistance the demon has taken less damage than Big T in the exchange. I suppose it's a nice delaying tactic but that's about it.
Yeah... they've made summoning a lot better. Kind of a bummer that Summon monster 7 and 8 aren't very good for good characters though. I guess Lillends are decent and there are some ok tanks. Hopefully Bestiary 2 brings some nice Proteons and other cool creatures into the summoning mix that good characters can call up.
I would certainly make it easier to make more divinely inspired summoners possible.
But I still think the animal choices, at lvl 6 and 7 is quite good for a good summoner. I'd take celestial creatures over fiendish anyday, given the usefulness of smite evil over smite good.The sheer meatshield of 1d4+1 triceratops at level 15 is really worthwhile in most combats. And of course the (smiting) trample ability if the enemy has high AC.
Assuming T-Rex is actually able to swallow him whole which I find questionable with the demons teleport, dispel magic, and reverse gravity at well. The Glabrezu can easily carve his way out, most likely in one round.
"Special Attacks swallow whole (2d8+11, AC 17, hp 15)"
Given the demonic acid resistance the demon has taken less damage than Big T in the exchange. I suppose it's a nice delaying tactic but that's about it.
The Summoner's Summon SLA is a standard action, so the T-Rex appears next to the Glabrezu and begins his attack (bite & grab). If the T-Rex can roll a 6 for the initial attack, the Glabrezu is quite handily grappled now (barring a natural 1 on the grapple check), making teleport, dispel magic, and reverse gravity IMPOSSIBLE given the concentration check now required. The Glabrezu can carve his way out, but it's going to take between 2 & 3 rounds, given the fiendish DR. And all the while, the T-Rex, Summoner and Eidolon have carte blanche to prepare their next course of action. Hell, the T-Rex doesn't really have to swallow the Glabrezu, he can just munch on him. And the T-Rex is completely disposable, you've got many more where he came from.
I would certainly make it easier to make more divinely inspired summoners possible.
But I still think the animal choices, at lvl 6 and 7 is quite good for a good summoner. I'd take celestial creatures over fiendish anyday, given the usefulness of smite evil over smite good.The sheer meatshield of 1d4+1 triceratops at level 15 is really worthwhile in most combats. And of course the (smiting) trample ability if the enemy has high AC.
Smite Evil does indeed tend to deal more damage, but DR/Good tends to NOT be overcome by most of the Bestiary. Then we're just comparing +18 melee damage given against 1 foe to -10 melee damage taken against potentially all melee attacks. Iterative attacks (and Evil subtype critters) will determine which is the better.
Edit: Love the Triceratops meatshields! Compelling visual....