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I have a dragon with blindsight (not blindsense) and a rogue in the same room. The rogue runs away into another room and makes a Stealth check to hide. The dragon doesn't know if the rogue stayed in the next room or kept running as blindsight is defined to be line-of-effect and the rogue went around a corner. (Actually, blindsense says the ability is line-of-effect and that it's a lesser version of blindsight, so I'm just assuming that blindsight requires LoE.)
When the dragon enters the room where the rogue is hiding, does it need to make a Perception check? If so, does it get a bonus for its blindsight ability?
(Since the blindsight ability is LoE and makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature, I would think that the ability to hide using a Stealth check would not apply once the dragon enters the same room. And even if it did apply, a dragon's sense of smell/hearing/sight should give it pretty nice bonuses on the Perception roll, right?)
Given that using Stealth requires some kind of concealment, can Stealth even be used against a creature with blindsight (assuming LoE isn't interrupted)?
Given that using Stealth requires some kind of concealment, can Stealth even be used against a creature with blindsight (assuming LoE isn't interrupted)?
It depends on the circumstances, but 9 times out of 10 it would be no.
Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object.
An exception would be if you could foil the blindsight -- like putting an area in a silence field if a creature uses echolocation. They'd just see a big empty sphere in the spell's effect.
There are other exceptions. . . but generally no.
I think dragon's blindsight is based on a combination of hearing and smell, so it might be fair to rule that a silence spell, reduces it to blindsense.
It is really up to the DM.
"Blindsight" tends to trump just about every illusion, stealth attempt and so on. The "Draconomicon" for 3.0/3.5 explains the Dragons senses quite well - they locate the opponent through a combination of sensing disturbances in the air (sort of like sonar) but combined with their strong sense of smell and AMAZING visual acuity (they see much better and father than most races can in low-light conditions and darkness). A Rogue would have to effectively foil all these senses to negate "Blindsight" (the "Hordestealer" prestige class in the Draconomicon temporarily allows the Rogue to be immune to "Blindsight/Blindsense" abilities which would only be mentioned if the Rogue was in itself unable to hide before)
Generally "Blindsight" is the ultimate 'see everything' ability out there. Its incredibly hard to bypass or get around (that being said the "Baneblind" abililty for Armor in the Magic Item Compendium gives you a temporary form of ultimate invisibility that foils ALL sensory abilities regardless of their origins of one chosen creature type)
No problem. ^_^
agree that RAW, no stealth check allowed vs blindsight/sense in core rules. there is a feat in Lords of Madness (3.5) that allowed PCs to do just that (hide vs unusual senses like blindsense), it was called darkstalker, IIRC.
But, I think the real question being asked: does blindsight/sense require LoE? is kind of interesting. We are all familiar with obstacles to sight, but obstacles to hearing, smell, etc aren't nearly as obvious. most monster entries call out the sensory modality of blindsight (usually hearing), but there are no real rules about how the game environment interactions with senses other than sight. well, in 3.5 they had some rules about undergrowth and spot/listen checks, but pretty spotty. I haven't seen anything on smell, aside for fluff about how stinky some monsters are.
ahem.
in other words, as a house rule, it might be fun to acknowledge that "concealment" (i.e. interruptions in LoE for blindsense/sight) should exist for hearing, smelling, etc. and to work it into the encounter scenario. it might take a knowledge check to identify them, or something, though.
if you want to get complicated, it would take a few steps. First you would use the old hunter trick and smother yourself in the droppings of the predator you wish to foil to smell of (The Dragons), then find a good place to hide (make a normal stealth check), and finally to foil the acuity to vibrations in the air you would either need to be a gargoyle rogue or be under the effects of the statue spell and change to statue form.
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Heh. How about if you meld into stone and travel right up next to the dragon while inside the stone! No smell, no sight, no sound (presumably). Although one would have to wonder about vibrations... Can you footsteps make vibrations when your feet are constantly in touch with the stone?
(Just kidding, really. This might work again a dragon once, but never against the same dragon a second time. ;))
Heh. How about if you meld into stone and travel right up next to the dragon while inside the stone!
nice one! in 3.5 druids in earth elemental form could earth glide to pull this dirty trick...
by the way, what kind of dragon has blindsight? sounds nasty.
by the way, what kind of dragon has blindsight? sounds nasty.Dragons have have darkvision 120 ft. and blindsense 60 ft. They see four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light.
meh, I'll see your blindsense and raise you a blindsight...
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meh, I'll see your blindsense and raise you a blindsight...
Call.
Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
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hmm, I blindsense that there is something that you aren't blindseeing in my post.
i kind of like not getting AOO moving around a dragon invisibly. is someone going to take that away from me with a new improved dragon -gasp-
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I don't have the dragon the OP mentioned, but I do note that Blindsight is a 3rd level arcane spell in one of the Forgotten Realms books, and most dragons get arcane spellcasting as part of their progression.
Edit: Also in Savage Species along with the Improved version. You'll have to wait for the OP to answer what dragon he is using.
I don't have the dragon the OP mentioned, but I do note that Blindsight is a 3rd level arcane spell in one of the Forgotten Realms books, and most dragons get arcane spellcasting as part of their progression.
good point - there are lots of nasty spells for dragons. scintillating scales and wraithstrike being two of my faves. savage species had a great blindsight spell that got nerfed good by the time spell compendium came out. always used it as a druid though - not sure if on the sor/wiz list.
still, a blindsighted dragon would be something.
maybe a friendly dolphin half-dragon?
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You wanted to know where the dragon came from...
From the CotCT adventure path.
First you would use the old hunter trick and smother yourself in the droppings of the predator you wish to foil to smell of (The Dragons), (...)
This might work against wolves or lions... but Dragons?
"Hey, why does it smell of my poop in here... do I have to call the plumber... again?!?
Oh, wait... maybe it's one of them canny rogues again who's been bathing in my latrine.
Yes, this is why the Darkstalker feat is highly recommended for any Rogue who has access to 3.5 material. I would like to see the effects of this feat (renamed or whatever you gotta do) replicated in Pathfinder either as a feat or a rogue talent.