After watching a series of youtube videos a few days ago on the sling by lindybeige, I got more interested in the sling (I even got so far as to make one myself). After reading up a bit on it, I think it should be a martial weapon, and that it could get the same treatment as crossbows and bows do - separated by size (or rather, length).
My reason for it being a martial weapon is simply that it takes much training to be even decent at it - a lot more than for example a bow. However, I think the monk should be proficient with all slings, and that both the druid and rogue should be proficient with at least the short sling.
This is my write-up for slings, based on wikipedia articles, slinging.org, and lloydianaspects.com. The staff sling won't really be useful for adventurers, but I put it there too for good measure. So, what do you people think?
After watching a series of youtube videos a few days ago on the sling by lindybeige, I got more interested in the sling (I even got so far as to make one myself). After reading up a bit on it, I think it should be a martial weapon, and that it could get the same treatment as crossbows and bows do - separated by size (or rather, length).
My reason for it being a martial weapon is simply that it takes much training to be even decent at it - a lot more than for example a bow. However, I think the monk should be proficient with all slings, and that both the druid and rogue should be proficient with at least the short sling.
This is my write-up for slings, based on wikipedia articles, slinging.org, and lloydianaspects.com. The staff sling won't really be useful for adventurers, but I put it there too for good measure. So, what do you people think?
The sling does not require much training to be proficient, although to be expert as, the Balearic islanders or Rhodians required considerable training.
I think that the sling gets short changed in D20.
Both range and damage for the sling is off they should be higher.
Bows on the other hand had a greater rate of fire and arrows could be designed to penetrate armour better.
Arrows also cause bleeding wounds where as if the bullet penetrated the flesh there was a tendency for the wound to close over.
Bullets were made of Lead, Stone, Fired Clay (terracotta), and non baked clay.
I often wonder if the game designers confused the slingshot with the sling?
The theory behind the sling being a simple weapon, from my interpretation, is the idea, true or not, that every peasant boy knew how to use a sling. And well if you are gonna make it practically universally available you can't have it trumping other less available weapons.
GW
I'm pretty sure you're right about that. A lot of peasants knew how to use a sling in medieval times.
I think the weapon proficiency system isn't the most accurate system. Slings are hard to use well but I think the reason its simple is that you can make one with a rock and a decent piece of cloth (albiet a crappy one) and bows are more useful, generally. Still, a lot of peasants should be able to use basic swords (machettes), axes, short bows, and a lot of polearms (bills). I'd think a short bow would be a heck of a lot more common then a crossbow.
I tried to come up with a way to make a system where you could make your own weapon so you could have a Simple Weapon version of a sword or an axe and Martial Weapon versions would add an additional benefit (increase the damage, threat range, crit multiplier, etc).
Fantasy Flight Game's Midnight setting did have a Great Sling. I think it was a Simple Weapon with the following stats:
1d6 (1d4) x2 Counts as a Two Handed Weapon (x1.5 Str Dmg) Range: Don't remember, probably between 60-80 ft.
I think the weapon proficiency system isn't the most accurate system.
+1
I believe it was an attempt to balance Classes by restricting the more (system-wise) effective weapons. Kind of a hold-over from Clerics not being able to use edged weapons.
I think the weapon proficiency system isn't the most accurate system. Slings are hard to use well but I think the reason its simple is that you can make one with a rock and a decent piece of cloth (albiet a crappy one) and bows are more useful, generally. Still, a lot of peasants should be able to use basic swords (machettes), axes, short bows, and a lot of polearms (bills). I'd think a short bow would be a heck of a lot more common then a crossbow.
I tried to come up with a way to make a system where you could make your own weapon so you could have a Simple Weapon version of a sword or an axe and Martial Weapon versions would add an additional benefit (increase the damage, threat range, crit multiplier, etc).
Fantasy Flight Game's Midnight setting did have a Great Sling. I think it was a Simple Weapon with the following stats:
1d6 (1d4) x2 Counts as a Two Handed Weapon (x1.5 Str Dmg) Range: Don't remember, probably between 60-80 ft.
I believe the reason hand axes, machettes (it would probably function as a short sword only deal slashing damage), and the basic pullarms (even scythes for that matter) aren't simple weapons is because just because you know how to use the weapon for cutting grain, chopping down trees, or cutting weeds doesn't necessarily mean you're going to know how to use it in a fight. It's kind of like how flintlock guns in campaigns that use them require and exotic weapon proficiency. Ya sure a gun is simple point and shoot but that doesn't mean you know how to clean it and keep it in working condition. On the other hand people did hunt with short bows. I think they really just tried to do the best they could and I'm pretty content with most of the choices.
See, I think the reason guns require an Exotic proficiency is again for some kind of Class balance.
I believe the reason hand axes, machettes (it would probably function as a short sword only deal slashing damage), and the basic pullarms (even scythes for that matter) aren't simple weapons is because just because you know how to use the weapon for cutting grain, chopping down trees, or cutting weeds doesn't necessarily mean you're going to know how to use it in a fight. It's kind of like how flintlock guns in campaigns that use them require and exotic weapon proficiency. Ya sure a gun is simple point and shoot but that doesn't mean you know how to clean it and keep it in working condition. On the other hand people did hunt with short bows. I think they really just tried to do the best they could and I'm pretty content with most of the choices.
I understand why they did things the way they did, I'm just saying it's not the most realistic system. Mechanically a bow in DnD is better then a crossbow since you can upgrade it to use your strength mod and do x3 damage on a crit. The bill, for instance was designed and used by british peasants to drag knights off their horses.
Guns are sort of dependent on the mechanics you use. I'd give them high damage and critical, but also a range increment of 10ft, 20-30ft for rifles. I remember a story of how some one attacked Andrew Jackson from 20ft away with two pistols, and Jackson ended up beating the guy with his cane. Add on a reload time of 2 full rounds and they might be weak enough to use as Simple or Martial Weapons.
Slings are classic shepherd's weapons. They are so easy to make. The ammunition is available or easy to hide.
I appreciate that the Sling is worth more than the vanilla rules but in the great scheme of things I think it is one of the better compromises.
Now where the sling could get some help is in the various ammunition you could make for it. Many things are easier to make as a pellet or egg than as an arrow, dart or bolt.
I think its perfectly possible to fling spheres or custom bullets for different advantages.
Sigurd
Some of this information will end up in my supplement I'm working on.
|
Ya know, it's really funny that many fighters, rangers, etc. often choose bows or crossbows at low levels when the sling has obvious advantages.
The sling applies your full strength modifier to all attacks made with it.
In fact, I was running a fairly low-level game (about 3 or 4), and the high strength/dexterity druid was regularly putting out very respectable ranged damage with the sling he'd had since level 1. While the dice damage wasn't much, he picked up some ranged weapon feats, and still had lots of money in other gear because he never needed to spend 500 gold on a decent bow (slings = free = WIN!). You would be surprised at how quickly 1d4+4 or +5 adds up on the damage at those levels. Yeah, at higher levels a bow might be a LITTLE better (only difference is slightly farther range, and the d8 damage), but it's more expensive, and if you lose it, it's a decent loss. After seeing the sling in action, I've made it a staple in every single one of my character's inventories.
Overall, I really like the weapon, and it's a lot more useful for many classes than you'd think. Plus, your fighter gets to spend his money on masterwork armor, or Breastplate at low-levels, rather than 100 gold for a bow.
Speaking of stone-throwers, in Luven Lightfinger's Gear & Treasure Shop, we included the Xistera, which is a basket used to hurl stones (Pelota) at very high velocity.
We also included the Arbalest, which is a stone-throwing crossbow.
|
|
As someone who has made and uses his own slings, I'd like to put up the following insights (I'm being generous with myself).
First, the increment is about right, I'd say at about 100 feet I'm 10% less likely to hit a target (that's a -2 from firing at double the range increment). At about 40 feet I can hit a target about 6 times out of 10.
Second, the same skill applies to tying a string to most any item under two pounds (lets say less lbs then your strength modifier). Which would be a killer with splash weapons to give them a better increment (from 10 to 50, rock on), and being smashed in the face with a high speed glass bottle should use the base damage of a sling regardless of what's in it.
Third, I have seen someone who can use the sling with great precision, I would suggest it as a feat, which increases both the sling's range increment, and it's critical range, as a function of the sling, so you can still use the improved critical feat.
Fourth, A sling is the easiest weapon to draw, though the limitations on loading it are certainly valid. Because you can just tie it around a wrist (I use a wrist anchor instead of, or in addition to, a finger anchor), and drop it when needed.
|
A more nuanced system (that would require more pages of explanation) would probably divide various weapons up into categories, based on the amount of training you'd received, similar to the Bastard Sword (usable one way with Martial Weapon Prof and another way with Exotic Weapon Prof).
That way, there could be basic numbers for slings, quarterstaves, etc. and then different numbers or use options (such as TWF with a quarterstaff) by learning it with a martial or exotic weapon prof.
Thanks for the input everyone, though much of the discussion seems focused on the proficiency system :/
One thing I forgot to add, but which was a key ability, was that slings would count as siege weapons in regards to strong winds, and only suffer 10% miss chance from wind wall. Situational, yes, but I like that kind of odd bonuses which make weapons be more than just critical multiplier.
Second, the same skill applies to tying a string to most any item under two pounds (lets say less lbs then your strength modifier). Which would be a killer with splash weapons to give them a better increment (from 10 to 50, rock on), and being smashed in the face with a high speed glass bottle should use the base damage of a sling regardless of what's in it.
Yes, I thought of including alchemical ammo, I don't know why I forgot. I think they have to be smaller than regular alchemical weapons. While I know it's possible to launch heavy things for a sling, that would severely alter the range, and I think it would be to rules-heavy to have to modify range for different types of ammunition.
I'll add them in an update.Third, I have seen someone who can use the sling with great precision, I would suggest it as a feat, which increases both the sling's range increment, and it's critical range, as a function of the sling, so you can still use the improved critical feat.
I think the usual ranged feats might be enough - there you have both far shot and improved critical. With the far shot feat, the max range of a long sling is 1600 ft., which I think is around where the world record is. I think x2 for critical is fine, as it's harder than with a crossbow and won't do as much damage as an arrow due to lesser armor piercing.
Fourth, A sling is the easiest weapon to draw, though the limitations on loading it are certainly valid. Because you can just tie it around a wrist (I use a wrist anchor instead of, or in addition to, a finger anchor), and drop it when needed.
Yeah, but that only works if you have it more or less ready already. Having it readied that way is great if the sling is your primary weapon, but wouldn't it get in the way if you held a sword in the hand too?
Interesting stuff
DA are you able to load more than one "stone" at a time?
I am guessing accuracy would go out the window but if you were in a large group firing upon another large group, I suspect that it would be less of an issue.
Interesting stuffDA are you able to load more than one "stone" at a time?
I am guessing accuracy would go out the window but if you were in a large group firing upon another large group, I suspect that it would be less of an issue.
Yes, historically people loaded large slings with more than one shot under some circumstances, at least according to some youtube guy who seemed fairly knowledgable.
Maybe multishot should work with slings then (if it doesn't already).
Regarding proficiency, I think simple weapons are simple, because they are easily available so most people can train with them a bit in their backyard without needing to have access to a well stocked armory of very expensive weapons. Except for bows and crossbows, which are categorized by handling instead of availability.
And the hand axe really would also have to be a simple weapon.
In my games, I simply increase the slings damage to 1d6 and the critical modifier to x3.
Regarding proficiency, I think simple weapons are simple, because they are easily available so most people can train with them a bit in their backyard without needing to have access to a well stocked armory of very expensive weapons. Except for bows and crossbows, which are categorized by handling instead of availability.
And the hand axe really would also have to be a simple weapon.In my games, I simply increase the slings damage to 1d6 and the critical modifier to x3.
I'd have to agree with you and I might start using your sling system :P
I don't really see why players would use the sling when they can use the Halfling Sling Staff.
It can be used as a simple weapon doing the bludgeoning damage as a club of its size.
1d4s/1d6m range 80' Crit x3 seems better all round.
Also in Luven Lightfinger's Gear & Treasure Shop, the Halfling Sling-Shot. (S)1d4/(M)1d6, 19-20/x2, 75 ft are the basic stats.
My wife plays a druid, 9th level, and has had a +1 Acidic Sling since 5th level. She doesn't have a lot of str, but has a good dex, so she does 1d4+2 + 1d6 acid and does decent damage with it. Of course, she does more damage turning into a tiger and then bite/claw/claw/raking the bad guy, but then again, all druids do. :)
Or she sics her cohort on someone who does the bite/claw/claw/rake as well.
|
|
Yes, I thought of including alchemical ammo, I don't know why I forgot. I think they have to be smaller than regular alchemical weapons. While I know it's possible to launch heavy things for a sling, that would severely alter the range, and I think it would be to rules-heavy to have to modify range for different types of ammunition.
They really don't have to be smaller. As for range and weight, Not so much as you might think, try with a plastic bottle on a string, half full of water. Then weigh one.
I think the usual ranged feats might be enough - there you have both far shot and improved critical. With the far shot feat, the max range of a long sling is 1600 ft., which I think is around where the world record is. I think x2 for critical is fine, as it's harder than with a crossbow and won't do as much damage as an arrow due to lesser armor piercing.
Steel Bullets (1" ball bearings) can severely dent steel, and embed themselves in wood and concrete. I was suggesting that the critical range go up, not the multiplier, due to the relative ease of putting it where you want it.
Yeah, but that only works if you have it more or less ready already. Having it readied that way is great if the sling is your primary weapon, but wouldn't it get in the way if you held a sword in the hand too?
Nope, just swung my longsword around with it, worked fine, less irritating then bracers. I flip it around my wrist, no worse then a watchband.
DA are you able to load more than one "stone" at a time?
I am guessing accuracy would go out the window but if you were in a large group firing upon another large group, I suspect that it would be less of an issue.
I tried it once, I lost both of the stones (golfballs) behind me somewhere. However I have seen a paper balloon filled with steel shot get used, that was bloody scary.
|
For those interested, my thoughts on slings and slingers and some links to sling related magic items too.
fixed link