In an arena style battle last night, my 15th-level summoner and his eidolon were soundly defeated by a Tarn Linnorm.
Anyways, at one point during the battle, my summoner was bitten and poisoned. The poison dealt 8 points of Constitution drain, which when combined with the massive amounts of damage my summoner had already taken from a breath weapon, was enough to kill him under normal circumstances.
The question arose as to whether or not the HP loss from the Constitution drain could be transferred to the eidolon leaving my summoner alive and stable at -11 (out of -12 needed to kill him).
To keep things moving, the GM quickly ruled that my class ability did indeed save his life (for a round at least before the poison finished him off by putting his Constitution score to 0), but none of us were really certain that, that was the way it was supposed to work.
So, is HP loss from Constitution damage/drain considered a form of damage for things like the Life Bond class ability or the Breath of Life spell being able to save you?
I would say it is not compatible with the Life Bond (HP dmg transference) ability, because what it would it mean if it were? That CON damage is applied to the Eidolon instead? Obviously, that is outside the scope of the ability, ONLY damage is transferred, not a "transference of reduction of total capacity to sustain damage" (which is what CON represents in relation to HPs).
I would rule that no, that constitution drain is not transferable to your eidolon. From the final playtest rules:
"Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected
by this ability. This ability does not affect spells like
baleful polymorph, f lesh to stone, or imprisonment, or other
spells that do not cause actual damage."
Since the HP loss was not actual damage, but loss of HP due to ability damage, I would rule that it cannot be transferred. The loss of HP was a secondary effect to the Actual damage, which was done to the ability score. That's how I would rule it. Some might argue that the rules don't preclude the Ability damage from being transferred instead to save you, but I don't see that as completely kosher with the apparent intent of the rule.
I'm not talking bout transferring the ability drain itself, that is clearly outside the scope of Life Bond.
My summoner lost 6 Constitution, and as such suddenly lost 45 hit points, enough to put him at -14 (only -12 is needed to kill him). What I'm asking is if he would go down to -11 and the rest of the HP loss (the remaining 3 points go to the eidolon.
Now, this wouldn't have been a problem if the summoner was at full health. Had he been, he wouldn't be at risk of dying (at least not for that round--that poison is nasty!). That makes me think that the damage maybe should have gone to the eidolon. Even if you don't consider the HP loss to be damage, the summoner nevertheless had suffered damage to his HP total (from the breath weapon attack) that could be transferred over the eidolon in order to keep him alive (at the time of the Constitution loss). Does that sound about right?
Even if you don't consider the HP loss to be damage, the summoner nevertheless had suffered damage to his HP total (from the breath weapon attack) that could be transferred over the eidolon in order to keep him alive (at the time of the Constitution loss). Does that sound about right?
If there was other damage involved in the attack other than the hp loss from CON drain, then yes, that HP could be transferred. But if the only HP lost was from the CON drain, then no.
Even if you don't consider the HP loss to be damage, the summoner nevertheless had suffered damage to his HP total (from the breath weapon attack) that could be transferred over the eidolon in order to keep him alive (at the time of the Constitution loss). Does that sound about right?If there was other damage involved in the attack other than the hp loss from CON drain, then yes, that HP could be transferred. But if the only HP lost was from the CON drain, then no.
Actually, now that I think about it, the poison did 6d6 HP damage AND 1d6 Con drain, so yes, that was the case.
I take it then, that you are of the opinion that previously accumulated damage could NOT be transferred if a HP draining effect (such as Con loss) would kill him due to his already weakened state?
Actually, now that I think about it, the poison did 6d6 HP damage AND 1d6 Con drain, so yes, that was the case.
I take it then, that you are of the opinion that previously accumulated damage could NOT be transferred if a HP draining effect (such as Con loss) would kill him due to his already weakened state?
Yes, that is the way I would rule it, only if the current attack is actually doing HP damage could HP damage be transferred to the eidolon. Trying to argue that previous damage could be transferred sounds to me like "What if I cast a cure on someone earlier when they had full HP?" if that makes sense.
I'm not talking bout transferring the ability drain itself, that is clearly outside the scope of Life Bond.
My summoner lost 6 Constitution, and as such suddenly lost 45 hit points, enough to put him at -14 (only -12 is needed to kill him). What I'm asking is if he would go down to -11 and the rest of the HP loss (the remaining 3 points go to the eidolon.
Now, this wouldn't have been a problem if the summoner was at full health. Had he been, he wouldn't be at risk of dying (at least not for that round--that poison is nasty!). That makes me think that the damage maybe should have gone to the eidolon. Even if you don't consider the HP loss to be damage, the summoner nevertheless had suffered damage to his HP total (from the breath weapon attack) that could be transferred over the eidolon in order to keep him alive (at the time of the Constitution loss). Does that sound about right?
I think the best way to think about this is that damage is a cumulatively building amount that once greater than your HP (or HP + CON Score) kills you/knocks you out. Reducing your CON Score ISN'T "Damage" like normal sources of damage, it is reducing your max possible HPs, to which your RUNNING total of damage (which isn't changed by CON damage) is then applied. So the net-HP-change from CON damage isn't HP damage that can be transferred.
Likewise, the over-all wording about "damge that would kill you" is phrased such that it clearly seems to be referring to damage AS IT IS BEING APPLIED, so I don't think if at a later point (after you have been damaged) that when the damage that previously wouldn't have killed you suddenly (because of CON damage, Level Drain, etc) NOW is enough to kill you, that that damage can be transferred, since the ability is worded to function when the damage is applied, not as a continual balancing of HPs.
Even with that 'limitation', it's a pretty great ability... I certainly see Summoners and Eidolons being the most common characters with Die-Hard exactly because of this ability :-).
Reducing your CON Score ISN'T "Damage" like normal sources of damage, it is reducing your max possible HPs, to which your RUNNING total of damage (which isn't changed by CON damage) is then applied. So the net-HP-change from CON damage isn't HP damage that can be transferred.
Yup. I think a lot of this sort of confusion, as well as common confusion surrounding extra rage hit points, is in thinking of your HP like a videogame life bar. It's more helpful to think of two numbers, HP and damage taken, and when the latter is greater than the former you fall unconscious, other bad things happen, etc.
On the other hand, having your CON reduced shouldn´t kill you in my opinion (as long as it is above zero) - the rules sure work that way but I can´t see the logic behind it, since HP are an abstract value, representing some kind of battle prowess.
If you go strictly by the rules, yes, it would´ve killed you but I think the DM was wise to allow you transfer that damage - rules should be a helper of roleplaying, not a burden.
On the other hand, having your CON reduced shouldn´t kill you in my opinion (as long as it is above zero) - the rules sure work that way but I can´t see the logic behind it, since HP are an abstract value, representing some kind of battle prowess.
If you go strictly by the rules, yes, it would´ve killed you but I think the DM was wise to allow you transfer that damage - rules should be a helper of roleplaying, not a burden.
If you don't have any damage on you otherwise, CON damage won't kill you until you reach 0. Say you have a CON of 14, level 5 Fighter. Rolled completely average, 42 HP. You take 13 points of con damage, and thus get -4 HP per HD but you always still get minimum 1, so your HP total will be 12. If you have less than 12 damage on you also you'll still be conscious.