The Duelist - Why can't we have nice things?

[Castilliano]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Urban Barbarian might be nice if you are using a scimitar, since you can boost your dex (and therefore your damage) as well as help your AC and leave off the problematic parts of raging.

Yes, with that Scimitar-dueling feat (forgot name). The bonus to Urban vs. multiple foes suits your job of going out and getting surrounded.

Yes, a siangham would work, but it's a poor weapon except for flurrying. But flurry needs zero armor, which means you need some Wis for AC, which means you need too many stats for most PF games.
Unarmed Attacks aren't appealing as the main attack, but as a second Precise Strike attack that isn't a 'weapon used by other hand' which a siangham would be.

IMO, Master of Many Styles is the way to go because you can skip ahead to high req feats, and don't want that many Monk levels anyway. Take the style feat normally (they have low reqs) then take the high req feats in style chain with the bonus feat.
Monk (MoMS) 2/XXXX/Duelist X will get you many tricks, especially if you space the Monk level/bonus feats until after easier prereq feats taken.

Odd Duelists:

Barbarian (Titan Mauler) w/ Ranseur in one hand (RAW a bit loose, implies it's okay) Being a rager able to Parry/Riposte seems pretty valuable to me.
or
Summoner (synthesist) 4 (4 attacks) (w/buffs like Enlarge Person, 12 Cha)
or
Summoner 4, shield ally for +2 AC/skill eidolon aiding another (w/feat to improve that, or Teamwork Feats to boost you)
or
Lance on horse? (maybe even that horsey Monk archetype) (subject to DM approval of 'one-handed' lance)
or
Barbarian (Drunken Brute) (w/ Good For What Ails You) (hold drink/potion in free hand) (essentially this is that picture on p. 333 in the APG that several posters use as their icon. It certainly looks like a Duelist to me.)
or
Alchemist, you can boost Dex +4, and have a 2nd use for higher Int and some nice skills.
(mix w/ Urban Barb for +8 Dex: Alchemist 2/Barb 3/Fighter 2/Duelist X)
15 pt. build (Elf)
Str 10 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 7
1st Weapon Finesse (Barb) (Yes, maybe losing 2 h.p. and going fighter would be better if playing out 1st, to get next feat faster)
2nd Dueling Scimitar Feat (prereq?) (Fighter)
3rd Extra Rage (Alchemist)
4th +1 Dex (10 min mutagen+rage=26 Dex, +8 Att/Dam.) (Barb.)
5th Mobility, Spring Attack (Fighter)
7th Any (or shift feats if that dueling scimitar feat has more prereqs. If it has zero, then take it at 1st)
8th +1 Int (All Dex afterward) (Duelist here on)
9th Improved Crit.
Or
Alchemist 6 for swift poison on a morningstar, sticky makes it last for "Int mod" times before depleted.
perhaps w/ Barb 2 (Drunken Brute) to drink those Alchemist buffs without provoking AoOs, to get Uncanny Dodge to keep that AC active, and to get a better weapon. (and maybe a bonus piercing attack w/ Rage power)

[InsaneFox]

I'm by no means a duelist expert. But I will say that I don't believe the duelist is designed to damage. It's designed to defeat and incapacitate individual human (or weapon-wielding) opponents. Duelist is more about stacking +attack and utilizing critical feats or CMD feats (primarily the attack ones, Disarm/Trip/Sunder) than it is about obliterating the opponents' HP.

Duelists are intended to stack their AC with dodge and dex bonuses. Doing so increases their CMD, which prevents against being disarmed/tripped/sundered.

Critical feats play into duelist because they would stack with the duelist's final ability, effectively crippling opponents in battle.

With a consistently high attack bonus, canny duelists can parry with their second (and occasionally their third+) attack, and riposte using their full base attack bonus. Effectively getting multiple attacks per round using their full BA.

I don't believe that there's anything wrong with duelist, except for the fact that it's niche. The duelist makes for a well balanced Prestige class because it outpreforms the base classes in one way, while underpreforming in other aspects.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Try a Cavalier with the Musketeer archetype who uses a scimitar instead of a rapier. Take Dervish dance to get your Dex to damage, and for your gifted weapon use a pistol. The pistol is a light single handed piercing weapon so can be used with precise strike. Also your challenge from the cavalier will stack so when challenging someone you add your level to the damage.

[gnomersy]

InsaneFox wrote:

I'm by no means a duelist expert. But I will say that I don't believe the duelist is designed to damage. It's designed to defeat and incapacitate individual human (or weapon-wielding) opponents. Duelist is more about stacking +attack and utilizing critical feats or CMD feats (primarily the attack ones, Disarm/Trip/Sunder) than it is about obliterating the opponents' HP.

Duelists are intended to stack their AC with dodge and dex bonuses. Doing so increases their CMD, which prevents against being disarmed/tripped/sundered.

Critical feats play into duelist because they would stack with the duelist's final ability, effectively crippling opponents in battle.

With a consistently high attack bonus, canny duelists can parry with their second (and occasionally their third+) attack, and riposte using their full base attack bonus. Effectively getting multiple attacks per round using their full BA.

I don't believe that there's anything wrong with duelist, except for the fact that it's niche. The duelist makes for a well balanced Prestige class because it outpreforms the base classes in one way, while underpreforming in other aspects.

The problem is that they don't really excel at their niche until they hit max level and with a +6 BAB requirement we're talking around level 16 or 4 levels after most games end for them to start not sucking. And their mid game performance would be decidedly subpar.

My issue with the duelist is that it doesn't do anything better than anyone else. A pure fighter has similar AC(without stat dependence) equal hp, more damage bonuses because he can twf or twohand weapons while the duelist can't, is less stat dependent overall (str&con, vs dex&con&int) has more feats to work with as well as the fighter only feats. Sure he can't parry but the minimum level for parry to stop sucking is level 11 when you get riposte(probably should have just been one ability you get at duelist lv2 imo) and it's a bad choice against at least half the enemies you face because they're larger sized than you and you get big negatives for that.

[Dabbler]

I find the duelist works rather nicely with the Free Hand Fighter archetype, myself. Yes, they are a specialised class, but their damage is not inconsiderable with an Agile weapon, and they have some nice maneuvers to back it up.

[gnomersy]

Dabbler wrote:

I find the duelist works rather nicely with the Free Hand Fighter archetype, myself. Yes, they are a specialised class, but their damage is not inconsiderable with an Agile weapon, and they have some nice maneuvers to back it up.

For me the point is that yes their damage is okay if using dervish dance or an Agile weapon but not better than any dedicated melee class short of maybe rogues. On the other hand he's not actually better at any maneuvers than anybody else either, the only exception is that he gets parry->riposte(only really good after you get riposte) and his crit power at max level.

Now if you rule that the Duelist can use a second weapon and use those attacks to parry without losing precise strike, he's okay not great but not so much worse that you feel like you're wasting the levels, in fact under ideal circumstances then he can actually pull ahead of a fighter, but if you decide that he can either attack or parry and only with his primary hand well that drops his damage straight into the dumps and leaves me questioning the value of his maneuvers at that point.

[Dabbler]

gnomersy wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

I find the duelist works rather nicely with the Free Hand Fighter archetype, myself. Yes, they are a specialised class, but their damage is not inconsiderable with an Agile weapon, and they have some nice maneuvers to back it up.

For me the point is that yes their damage is okay if using dervish dance or an Agile weapon but not better than any dedicated melee class short of maybe rogues. On the other hand he's not actually better at any maneuvers than anybody else either, the only exception is that he gets parry->riposte(only really good after you get riposte) and his crit power at max level.

I ran a comparison of his damage against other classes, and actually he doesn't come out to badly against the greatsword fighter power attacking - the extra hits make all the difference. His AC tends to be excellent if he has invested in his intelligence, and I agree Parry isn't much use without Riposte, but is very good with it. It's not outstanding, but it isn't nerfed either.

[gnomersy]

Dabbler wrote:

I ran a comparison of his damage against other classes, and actually he doesn't come out to badly against the greatsword fighter power attacking - the extra hits make all the difference. His AC tends to be excellent if he has invested in his intelligence, and I agree Parry isn't much use without Riposte, but is very good with it. It's not outstanding, but it isn't nerfed either.

I don't suppose you could post it or point it out for me? I wouldn't mind seeing the math and seeing the build. In my brain it doesn't add up since you get 1.5str+ 1.5power attacks+ a larger damage die all with the same number of attacks and with the bonus of weapon spec and fewer ability dependencies.

As for the AC ehhh it's good although you hit the max dex cap on any armor pretty fast and if you ever get flatfooted you may as well just cry and pray for the enemy to roll ones.

[Flynn Walker]

I'm curious, what do people think of a Kensei Magus / Duelist? Arguably the two Canny Defence abilities stack and they're fairly complementary in that they both require a high dex and int.

Furthermore, what's the opinion on a duelist based on the Aldori Dueling Sword? I could also see that working with a Kensei due to the bonus exotic weapon proficiency the archetype gets.

[Dabbler]

It was a long time back, sadly, and I don't still have the figures. I do recall that the duelist didn't bother with power attack, instead focussing on their intelligence and precise strike. Against a high-AC target, they surged ahead in damage by scoring more hits rather than in raw damage.

This build took maxed-out dexterity rather than strength, but it worked.