Hey there! Just trying to think ahead on a cleric build and I am curious as to what the more analytical and number crunching folk on the boards think about what powers for the luck domain would be the best to choose.
Here's the question -- I am mainly agonizing over whether to keep "Good fortune" or trade it for the fate subdomain and get "Tugging strands"
Good Fortune (Ex): At 6th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 6th level, and one additional time per day for every six cleric levels beyond 6th.
Domain Spells: 2nd - Aid , 3rd - Protection from Energy
Tugging Strands (Su): At 8th level, you can force a creature within line of sight to reroll any one roll that it has just made before the result of the roll is revealed. The result of the reroll must be taken, even if it is worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and one additional time per day for every 6 levels beyond 8th.
Replacement Domain Spells: 2nd—augury, 3rd—borrow fortune
Here's where my mind starts reeling:
Good Fortune comes 2 levels earlier, and seems cool in that I can use it to save my bacon if I fail a really critical roll... but Tugging strands seems to allow me to force anybody (friend or foe) to do the same thing... considering I am considered my own ally, Is tugging strands just a broadened version of Good fortune that you get a little later?
It also seems (while protection from energy seems cool) that Augury and Borrow Fortune might be the cooler spells to have. Considering luck domain has a lot to do with improving probability of good things and mitigating bad luck, Borrow fortune wouldn't be a bad preferred spell to have for my build I think as well.
What are your opinions on which power is better if any? The domain spells are a secondary concern, but opinions are welcome there as well.
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Are you more buff or combat focused? If you're fairly combat focused Good fortune will probably be better since you can recover your poor rolls.
Tugging Strands would be all right as a recovery power for a poor roll on your allies behalf, but unless your GM has a really crappy poker face or rolls where you can see, how useful is it offensively?
Also, you counting as your own ally doesn't have any bearing on whether you can use Tugging Strands on yourself, the target is "one creature within line of sight". There's not really support or precedence in the game (that I'm aware of) for being in line of sight to yourself.
Tugging Strands also works on enemies. Best uses for it imo are to force rerolls of critical hits against your allies or to force rerolls of an enemies successful save. Tugging strands works on allies, enemies, and yourself. Pure win. The only problem is that there is no statement of the action type. It should be listed as an immediate action but it is not. As a result a GM could easily state it is a standard action.
- Gauss
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Tugging Strands also works on enemies. Best uses for it imo are to force rerolls of critical hits against your allies or to force rerolls of an enemies successful save. Tugging strands works on allies, enemies, and yourself. Pure win. The only problem is that there is no statement of the action type. It should be listed as an immediate action but it is not. As a result a GM could easily state it is a standard action.
- Gauss
However, Tugging Strands specifically states that it must be used "before the results of the roll are revealed". Therefore, if you already know it is a crit or that they made the save, it is too late to activate the ability. I believe you have been using the ability incorrectly Gauss. (Not trying to be snarky, just pointing how I'm interpreting vs. your suggested use)
Actually, it is not hard to know that a 20 is a possible crit. It works like this:
DM: He rolled a 20 on his attack roll.
Player: I force him to reroll.
OR:
DM: He rolled a 16 on his saving throw
Player: I force him to reroll.
The whole 'before results are known' does not mean you do not see the dice. It does mean the GM has yet to announce if it is a hit or not. If the bad guy saved or not. Yes, my phrasing: 'force rerolls of an enemies successful save' is misleading. My apologies for that. BUT, you can force the enemy to reroll based on what comes up on the dice. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 15+ on the die probably = a successful save.
If you mean that you do not even get to see the dice rolls? That would make the ability 100% useless. It is generally assumed that you see the dice, dont like the dice, reroll the dice.
- Gauss
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Actually, it is not hard to know that a 20 is a possible crit. It works like this:
DM: He rolled a 20 on his attack roll.
Player: I force him to reroll.OR:
DM: He rolled a 16 on his saving throw
Player: I force him to reroll.The whole 'before results are known' does not mean you do not see the dice. It does mean the GM has yet to announce if it is a hit or not. If the bad guy saved or not. Yes, my phrasing: 'force rerolls of an enemies successful save' is misleading. My apologies for that. BUT, you can force the enemy to reroll based on what comes up on the dice. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a 15+ on the die probably = a successful save.
If you mean that you do not even get to see the dice rolls? That would make the ability 100% useless. It is generally assumed that you see the dice, dont like the dice, reroll the dice.
- Gauss
Which brings it back to my original question about how openly his GM plays the dice rolls. There is nothing in the ability that forces a GM to tell the user what he rolled, meaning the ultimate effectiveness of the ability (at least offensively) lies entirely in the realm of GM fiat, and how much your GM really feels like sharing.
Then that is a problem with the GM for not giving the player the opportunity to force a reroll. While proper game design should take into account the varieties of players and GMs it cannot really account for a GM who screws players like that.
Just like crafting rules. I would clear any ability with the GM first. Make sure both sides knew the rules. Dont like what I hear? Dont play it.
Where it really becomes a problem is with PFS since a PC could have multiple GMs over the career of that PC. However, if a given PFS GM screwed the player and wouldn't play ball I would report it to higher ups. Hopefully that would work.
Then again, in PFS it is a standard action to use this power. I wouldn't use it there anyhow until it is errata'd.
- Gauss
Corlindale: Is this character a PFS character or a home game? If PFS do not go for TS due to the multiple GM interpretation problem. If home game clear its use with your GM and then make the choice on what to take.
- Gauss
Yes, my phrasing: 'force rerolls of an enemies successful save' is misleading. My apologies for that.
Hi Gauss, was you the creator of Tugging Strands? Is thare an errata corrige of it? Cause in case of stubborn GM it became an useless capacity...