Thanks anyone...
I have a clarification question...
See in Darkness (Su) Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.In my game last night, the players thought that the "can see perfectly in darkness" part of See in Darkness meant that a Bearded Devil (Senses darkvision 60 ft., see in darkness; Perception +10) can see in darkness the same way that it sees in light. As in, it can see color in darkness (even though darkvision is usually black & white), and it can see in the dark as far as it could normally see in the light (even though it has a listed darkvision limit of 60 ft). I went along with this because...I could see their side of it...I wanted to keep things moving...and it wasn't going to make any real difference at the time.
But doesn't See in Darkness really just mean that its darkvision still works in areas that are supernaturally dark? So, a creature with darkvision cannot see in supernatural darkness, but a creature with See in Darkness has its darkvision work just like normal (i.e. black & white and 60 ft for the Bearded Devil) in the supernatural darkness. Right?
The 3.5 version just allowed the devil to ignore the darkness altogether, and the pathfinder one is worded the same way. The only reason I can think for a devil to have darkvision also is that one is supernatural meaning it might be possible to suppress it, but darkvision is extraordinary which means it can see even if its magic abilities are shutdown.
Being able to see color is darkness is not really much of an advantage and would not be worth the ink used to print the ability, but to be able to ignore darkness altogether would be though.
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Being able to see color is darkness is not really much of an advantage and would not be worth the ink used to print the ability, but to be able to ignore darkness altogether would be though.
I don't know about that. Being able to READ in darkness requires the ability to see color (or so I'm told) and that could prove to be very pertinent and/or powerful in some instances.
Specifically, anti-magic fields would cause them to not be able to See in Darkness anymore, but their Darkvision would continue working fine.
However, barring those rare circumstances, Darkvision will likely not come up.
Also, I would deem the word "perfectly" to mean that a devil sees in darkness exactly as he would see in the light. So color, if important for some reason, would be seen by a devil.
I can see the reason for needing Darkvision to "make sense" as it's an extraordinary ability, more grounded in the physical world (although the "Extra" part of extraordinary should mean something). Supernatural abilities should be allowed to completely break any sense of physical realism, because they are not grounded in laws of physics, but laws of magic.. which are more like "a drop of sunlight" style of reality.
I don't know about that. Being able to READ in darkness requires the ability to see color (or so I'm told) and that could prove to be very pertinent and/or powerful in some instances.
Being able to see color is darkness is not really much of an advantage and would not be worth the ink used to print the ability, but to be able to ignore darkness altogether would be though.
Are we talking about colour (as in "more than greyscale") or colour as in "not seeing the difference between black text on white background".
Because the second sounds like a rationalization of Darkvision being something like sonar, or a bat's audio-visual location mechanism.
I think the intention is that Darkvision sees in "black and white", not "sonar". I recall an illustration from an old 3e book (can't remember which, the original 3.0e DMG maybe?) of an Illithid in a corridor that was in color on one side, and then the same image in weird black and white defined lines on the other.
Didn't look like sonar vision (topographical mapping), but rather more like an abritrary "here's white, here's black" to define one outline to the next.
In this case, reading text in darkvision might be possible (don't see anything that says you can't), but seeing if you have the red macguffin peg or the blue macguffin peg in your hand to put in the green macguffin slot or yellow macguffin slot would be impossible with Darkvision.
Essentially, I'd think of it more as "colorblind" than anything else.
I don't know about that. Being able to READ in darkness requires the ability to see color (or so I'm told) and that could prove to be very pertinent and/or powerful in some instances.
Being able to see color is darkness is not really much of an advantage and would not be worth the ink used to print the ability, but to be able to ignore darkness altogether would be though.Are we talking about colour (as in "more than greyscale") or colour as in "not seeing the difference between black text on white background".
Because the second sounds like a rationalization of Darkvision being something like sonar, or a bat's audio-visual location mechanism.
I think the intention is that Darkvision sees in "black and white", not "sonar". I recall an illustration from an old 3e book (can't remember which, the original 3.0e DMG maybe?) of an Illithid in a corridor that was in color on one side, and then the same image in weird black and white defined lines on the other.
Didn't look like sonar vision (topographical mapping), but rather more like an abritrary "here's white, here's black" to define one outline to the next.In this case, reading text in darkvision might be possible (don't see anything that says you can't), but seeing if you have the red macguffin peg or the blue macguffin peg in your hand to put in the green macguffin slot or yellow macguffin slot would be impossible with Darkvision.
Essentially, I'd think of it more as "colorblind" than anything else.
I always understood the lack of color to mean black and white/greyscale. I know it was mentioned as black and white in 3.5 at one point.
Being able to push the red button as opposed to the blue one might be an issue which also falls in line with the color blindness interpretation.
Most werewolf movies or other 'wild animal' stalking movies seem to use a black and white/nightvision lense to depict the monsters point of view.
THAT's the way I picture darkvision, you should be able to read just fine in that. black on white should show up just fine in black and white vision.
As for the Devils... Thematically i think they should just ignore the darkness. They're as much at home in the dark as they are in the light, Don't know enough about RAW to comment though.
Eyes have rods (for shades of gray) and cones (for color), and which you get more information from depends on the light level. If you get the level of light in a room just right, the cones in your eyes won't work at all, but the rods will, and you can actually see (barely, since it's dark) in black and white. I've had it happen every now and then. It's a very weird feeling to be looking at a wall hanging I know is made of red, yellow, and blue squares, and seeing them as differing shades of gray.
Darkvision's like that.
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THAT's the way I picture darkvision, you should be able to read just fine in that. black on white should show up just fine in black and white vision.
I would think so too, but my DM disagrees. For the past five years he's been adamant about not being able to read with darkvision. I was under the impression that he read a rule in a book that said that.
I don't know about that. Being able to READ in darkness requires the ability to see color (or so I'm told) and that could prove to be very pertinent and/or powerful in some instances.
Being able to see color is darkness is not really much of an advantage and would not be worth the ink used to print the ability, but to be able to ignore darkness altogether would be though.
White and black are different colors. You can read in black and white if the colors are different in color.
I would think so too, but my DM disagrees. For the past five years he's been adamant about not being able to read with darkvision. I was under the impression that he read a rule in a book that said that.
THAT's the way I picture darkvision, you should be able to read just fine in that. black on white should show up just fine in black and white vision.
Your DM is a fool then, but let's move on.
In the case of the devils, they have darkvision too because they are outsiders, even if the see in darkness was an extraordinary ability it would probably still be listed for the sake of completeness. Someone might come up with a spell that specifically removes the see in darkness ability, but still alows darkvision.
I think the reason why some people think you can't read with darkvision is due to how it was handled in 1e/2e (not sure excactly when it worked that way, but some point in D&D history); There was darkvision in black and white, and ultravision which was heat-based. Many creatures that could see in darkness, for example drow, had heat-based ultravision, and that didn't allow them to read in darkness.
However, 3.0 (or maybe earlier) got rid of ultravision because it was kinda hard to make it not-stupid. The idea itself wasn't stupid, but it was hard to get it to make sense what could be seen and not (can you see an undead creature? When can you see walls and when can you not? and so on).
Nowadays, dwarves and drow can read perfectly fine in darkness.
I think the reason why some people think you can't read with darkvision is due to how it was handled in 1e/2e (not sure excactly when it worked that way, but some point in D&D history); There was darkvision in black and white, and ultravision which was heat-based. Many creatures that could see in darkness, for example drow, had heat-based ultravision, and that didn't allow them to read in darkness.
However, 3.0 (or maybe earlier) got rid of ultravision because it was kinda hard to make it not-stupid. The idea itself wasn't stupid, but it was hard to get it to make sense what could be seen and not (can you see an undead creature? When can you see walls and when can you not? and so on).
Nowadays, dwarves and drow can read perfectly fine in darkness.
Ultravision = Infravision
At least in 2nd edition it was, otherwise I agree, It changed in 3.0
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I think the reason why some people think you can't read with darkvision is due to how it was handled in 1e/2e (not sure excactly when it worked that way, but some point in D&D history); There was darkvision in black and white, and ultravision which was heat-based. Many creatures that could see in darkness, for example drow, had heat-based ultravision, and that didn't allow them to read in darkness.
However, 3.0 (or maybe earlier) got rid of ultravision because it was kinda hard to make it not-stupid. The idea itself wasn't stupid, but it was hard to get it to make sense what could be seen and not (can you see an undead creature? When can you see walls and when can you not? and so on).
Nowadays, dwarves and drow can read perfectly fine in darkness.
Ultravision = Infravision
At least in 2nd edition it was, otherwise I agree, It changed in 3.0
Also, the happy thought that torches no longer mess up darkvision...
BTW, per the PRD:
Darkvision
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Black and white vision only. To me this also means that they could read just fine, but would have problems with things like the red lever vs green lever.
Ultravision = InfravisionAt least in 2nd edition it was, otherwise I agree, It changed in 3.0
I don't see how you could see in the underdark outside cities with infravision. Everything would be pitch black expanses. There wouldn't be any shades of heat to be able to see anything I don't think.
I don't see how you could see in the underdark outside cities with infravision. Everything would be pitch black expanses. There wouldn't be any shades of heat to be able to see anything I don't think.
Ultravision = InfravisionAt least in 2nd edition it was, otherwise I agree, It changed in 3.0
In the drizzt novels, it's described that background heating in the rock means it's a little different from the air, since the air usually moves around between different depths, IIRC.
