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ok, I could use some rules help with this spell. There was some minor disagreement at the game table recently over the use of this spell. The part in question is the part that protects from 'possession'. Which spells/effects/abilities does this specifically protect against?
Also grants an additional Saving Throw at +2 vs. mind controlling spells/effects, particularly of the enchantment[charm] and enchantment[compulsion] variety. This apparently grants the new, adjusted, save even after the subject is under the influence of such a mind-controlling device/spell/effect/et. al.
Do you mean the blanket +2 resistance it gives? I agree, but the players all have +2 or better cloaks of resistance, so I was thinking more of the specific possesion blocking ability.
So there is: ghost ability, magic jar spell, and vampiric possession (from the gaze attack?) anything else?
Do you mean the blanket +2 resistance it gives? I agree, but the players all have +2 or better cloaks of resistance, so I was thinking more of the specific possesion blocking ability.
No, I meant that in addition to blanket +2 resistance bonus vs Evil creatures, there is an additional save granted (if there was one in the original case) vs. mental control and possession with a +2 Morale bonus, which, if successful suppresses existing mental control and possession effects including charm and compulsion effects regardless of alignment.
So there is: ghost ability, magic jar spell, and vampiric possession (from the gaze attack?) anything else?
There are a few Demons that have a possession ability, likely some devils and other outsiders as well, Aboleth, Mind flayers, all the Charm and Compulsion spells are blocked, Domination and there could be quite a few more creatures to add.
No, I meant that in addition to blanket +2 resistance bonus vs Evil creatures, there is an additional save granted (if there was one in the original case) vs. mental control and possession with a +2 Morale bonus, which, if successful suppresses existing mental control and possession effects including charm and compulsion effects regardless of alignment.
Check that, there is no 'regardless of alignment' for PfE anymore.
From D20PFSRD - Protection from Evil:
This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
I just find it amazing that this 1st level spell blocks (most) of an entire school of magic.
I just find it amazing that this 1st level spell blocks (most) of an entire school of magic.
Shhhhhhh, don't point it out like that, it's awesome....
Yes, PfE is awesome. One time, one of our group members drank a potion and then used bluff checks to make an Illithid think that it had successfully dominated him. That Illithid was sorry to have messed with him in the end.
If the spell is in operation before an enchantment (charm) or (compulsion) spells are cast on you by an evil caster, then those spells do not function (well, until the Protection from Evil runs out).
@beckett, what have they changed that you don't like?
and apparently you get a new save as well.
Beckett- please explain? It seems just as good to me.
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Pretty much the entire thing.
It needs to be protective against Non-Good, rather than just Evil. It needs to not be a Resistance/Moral Bonus, but something to keep it useful past 2nd or 3rd level.
I understand wanting to nerf it's auto immune to Mind Effects, but they should have compensated. As it is, it is an incredibly weak spell outside a few cases. It is hardly a buff anymore.
Well, the majority of creatures in the adventure paths (which Im using) seem to be evil. But setting that aside, let's assume an evil enemy. How is this spell not as awesome as it was before? The more Im researching it, the more powerful it seems to me. It is a 1st level spell that: blocks summoned creatures(evil), blocks most of the enchantment school, and gives a second save if already charmed, and gives some comba boosts if your items are not already that high. What's not to like?
Pretty much the entire thing.
It needs to be protective against Non-Good, rather than just Evil. It needs to not be a Resistance/Moral Bonus, but something to keep it useful past 2nd or 3rd level.
I understand wanting to nerf it's auto immune to Mind Effects, but they should have compensated. As it is, it is an incredibly weak spell outside a few cases. It is hardly a buff anymore.
Evil Summoned critters can't use their natural weapons. The nerf to practically every evil enchantmentspell at 1st level. What's not to love. Of course, I don't spend much time taking out my frustrations on the neutral guys....
Edit: Or blope +1
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Well, the majority of creatures in the adventure paths (which Im using) seem to be evil. But setting that aside, let's assume an evil enemy. How is this spell not as awesome as it was before? The more Im researching it, the more powerful it seems to me. It is a 1st level spell that: blocks summoned creatures(evil), blocks most of the enchantment school, and gives a second save if already charmed, and gives some comba boosts if your items are not already that high. What's not to like?
The Resistence to Saves and Deflection to AC only apply against Evil creatures. These are the two easiest Bonuses to get and do not stack. There is a very small gap when a Character shouldn't already have this, and most Cleric spells that do buff AC or Saves are those types also. It is needlessly restricted for little to no gain. At the very least, make it a Sacred Bonus. Arcane casters can sommon any alignment, and Divine only can't summon the opposite alignment, (Evil can't ummon good creatures.)
It aso only allows the target a new save and a Moral Bonus against spells created by Evil casters/Items. This vastly undercuts both the point and effectivness of the spell. (Unless all you fight is Evil, like you mentioned. It is rarer for my games.) The point of this spell is that you can give a short respite if someone in your party gets mnd-conrolled. It is a short duration, and does not negate the mind-control, just stop it a short time. Now, it doesn't even do that effectively, (because the things it wards against are narrowed conciderably.)
Pretty much the entire thing.
It needs to be protective against Non-Good, rather than just Evil. It needs to not be a Resistance/Moral Bonus, but something to keep it useful past 2nd or 3rd level.
I understand wanting to nerf it's auto immune to Mind Effects, but they should have compensated. As it is, it is an incredibly weak spell outside a few cases. It is hardly a buff anymore.
I'm not following. It seems to be doing the same thing as it used to.
I have just re-read the 3.5 version and the PF version and I am not seeing any real difference. The phrases have changed a bit, but the content is still the same.
Protection from Evil has never (to my knowledge) protected against non-good but not evil. 3.5 has Protection from Evil, Protection from Good and Protection from Law. PF has those three and Protection from Chaos.
What are you seeing as a nerf? What are the cases that you believe it used to work and now does not?
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Second, the subject immediately receives another saving
throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or
effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature
(including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment
[compulsion] effects). This saving throw is made with a +2 morale
bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful,
such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The
effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While
under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new
attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target.
This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost
or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from
controlling the target. This second effect only functions against
spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to
GM discretion.
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Pretty much the entire thing.
It needs to be protective against Non-Good, rather than just Evil. It needs to not be a Resistance/Moral Bonus, but something to keep it useful past 2nd or 3rd level.
I understand wanting to nerf it's auto immune to Mind Effects, but they should have compensated. As it is, it is an incredibly weak spell outside a few cases. It is hardly a buff anymore.
I'm not following. It seems to be doing the same thing as it used to.
I have just re-read the 3.5 version and the PF version and I am not seeing any real difference. The phrases have changed a bit, but the content is still the same.
Protection from Evil has never (to my knowledge) protected against non-good but not evil. 3.5 has Protection from Evil, Protection from Good and Protection from Law. PF has those three and Protection from Chaos.
What are you seeing as a nerf? What are the cases that you believe it used to work and now does not?
The two major things about the spell are wards against summoned creatures and Mental Control. In 3E, only GOOD summoned creatures could touch you, (not neutral or evil), and it blocked all attempts at mind control, (good, evil, or neutral). The Resistance and Deflection are fairly worthless, (they are common and do not increase with level).
It is not that the ward vs mental control is now a new save, that I am ok with. It is that the sell is 100% useless against non-Evil opponents, and there is no Neutral equivalent.
Sure, it's pretty useless if you're looking for Protection from Neutral. But you don't get alignment protections for raping the neutrals.
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Sure, it's pretty useless if you're looking for Protection from Neutral. But you don't get alignment protections for raping the neutrals.
Raping the Neutrals? Neutrals are already incentivized because they are immune to, or have minor effects from powerful alignment spells. I'd say, if anything, they are raping the other alignments. It is far to easy togo around being all evil, and than the PC to try the "but I'm Neutral card", and that is exactly why it needs to me Non-Good rather than Evil.
The two major things about the spell are wards against summoned creatures and Mental Control. In 3E, only GOOD summoned creatures could touch you, (not neutral or evil), and it blocked all attempts at mind control, (good, evil, or neutral). The Resistance and Deflection are fairly worthless, (they are common and do not increase with level).
It is not that the ward vs mental control is now a new save, that I am ok with. It is that the sell is 100% useless against non-Evil opponents, and there is no Neutral equivalent.
I think that I am seeing part of the problem. I have a different interpretation of the 3.5 spell.
In the 3rd paragraph of the spell (second effect), the last couple of phrases are "Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment".
I always interpreted that to mean that the rest of that benefits in that paragraph only applied when the opponents were evil.
I believe that there are neutral equivalents (well, except perhaps True Neutral). You can use Protection from Chaos or Protection from Law.
I have had characters who were of good alignment cast Protection from Good on themselves to avoid being magically convinced to help out the good realm against X threat.
A first level spell that isn't still bad ass at high levels? Why, oh why?!?
Raping the Neutrals? Neutrals are already incentivized because they are immune to, or have minor effects from powerful alignment spells. I'd say, if anything, they are raping the other alignments. It is far to easy togo around being all evil, and than the PC to try the "but I'm Neutral card", and that is exactly why it needs to me Non-Good rather than Evil.
If the neutrals are going around 'being all evil', then that's more of an indictment of your alignment system than the PfAlignment spells, and certainly beyond the scope of this thread.
And I love Neutral! It's so liberating. But I use PfE all the time (actually Magic Circle, but same thing) to protect my neutral way of life by throttling those evil bastards.
Wow, I'm actually part of the problem!
I'm curious what you mean by that?
Which part?
Do you mean using Protection from Good to avoid being magically convinced to aid the realm?
If so: a Good king, who needs a threat taken care of, and who has an old frail mage that can cast a few spells to help convince a group of adventurers to help out... Why would he not do so, if he knew that the adventurers had some concerns or previous issues with him? It is for the greater good, and if a Paladin can work with "Evil" to defeat a greater Evil, why then cannot the king "help" the cause of Good with a bit of magical convincing/argument?
In the game, that king had a "good" alignment, but was not a good king, as in not very good at being a king. He tended to ignore problems, hoping that they would either go away or resolve themselves. When that failed, he magically asked some adventurers to help out. After finding yourself agreeing to things that you had no intention of agreeing to going into the meeting, you start to take precautions.
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I'm curious what you mean by that?Which part?
Sorry, I didn't post it fast enough. It was to Mr. Young about the "Raping of Neutrals". Mechanically speaking, there is no reason to play anything but neutral (except for a few alignment class restrictions), because you are either immune to, or only minorly hampered by all of the Alignment based spells. It works both ways, though, so that would include Protection from Good and the like.
Neutral is also so poorly defined, (literally not self-aware enough to be Good, not cool enough to be Evil, your what they are not), that in any realistic sense, Neutral would be a short lived temporary state, (like a condition such as Paralyzed or Sickened). Anyway, off topic, it just seemed interesting that anyone would think the Neutral alignments are being "raped" somehow.
Mechanically speaking, there is no reason to play anything but neutral (except for a few alignment class restrictions), because you are either immune to, or only minorly hampered by all of the Alignment based spells.
Blasphemy and its other-alignment counterparts would like a word with you (pun intended).
You're also wrong about what Neutral is, but that's a topic for an entirely different thread.
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Mechanically speaking, there is no reason to play anything but neutral (except for a few alignment class restrictions), because you are either immune to, or only minorly hampered by all of the Alignment based spells.Blasphemy and its other-alignment counterparts would like a word with you (pun intended).
You're also wrong about what Neutral is, but that's a topic for an entirely different thread.
You are right about the 7th Level Alignment spells, but they are one of the rare exceptions. (Not that there are a great many of them, but I'm including also those from Spell Compendium and the like).
What is Neutral? Please do define it, because no version of 3E has yet, (except as I partially joked above).
PF describes Neutral as lacking commitment.
Sorry, I didn't post it fast enough. It was to Mr. Young about the "Raping of Neutrals". Mechanically speaking, there is no reason to play anything but neutral (except for a few alignment class restrictions), because you are either immune to, or only minorly hampered by all of the Alignment based spells. It works both ways, though, so that would include Protection from Good and the like.
Neutral is also so poorly defined, (literally not self-aware enough to be Good, not cool enough to be Evil, your what they are not), that in any realistic sense, Neutral would be a short lived temporary state, (like a condition such as Paralyzed or Sickened). Anyway, off topic, it just seemed interesting that anyone would think the Neutral alignments are being "raped" somehow.
Ahh, I was just wondering what you might have done to the neutrals to have them after you so you'd need protecting.
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Ahh, I was just wondering what you might have done to the neutrals to have them after you so you'd need protecting.Sorry, I didn't post it fast enough. It was to Mr. Young about the "Raping of Neutrals". Mechanically speaking, there is no reason to play anything but neutral (except for a few alignment class restrictions), because you are either immune to, or only minorly hampered by all of the Alignment based spells. It works both ways, though, so that would include Protection from Good and the like.
Neutral is also so poorly defined, (literally not self-aware enough to be Good, not cool enough to be Evil, your what they are not), that in any realistic sense, Neutral would be a short lived temporary state, (like a condition such as Paralyzed or Sickened). Anyway, off topic, it just seemed interesting that anyone would think the Neutral alignments are being "raped" somehow.
Ah, nothing. It is just common to have Neutral things as antagonists. Animals, Elementals, common Humanoids. Things like that.
By that, I'm not being rude, but there is nothing about the Neutral alignments that set them apart from other aignments, except for their lack of commitment, bias, conviction, . . .
Not true. But, again, this isn't an alignment thread, and I'm not going to get into an alignment debate here.
So, back on topic for a moment...The spell is just as good as before, but narrowed to only be so good against evil sources specifically. It would seem to be a useful buff at almost any level if you have enough time to put it on before combat.
So, back on topic for a moment...The spell is just as good as before, but narrowed to only be so good against evil sources specifically. It would seem to be a useful buff at almost any level if you have enough time to put it on before combat.
That's why I like the Magic Circle variant. 10 min/level goes a long way. That and not having to touch the ensorcelled BSF when things go pear-shaped....
This makes me think of looking at an alternate option spell:
Good Protection (still 1st level)
Same as Protection from Evil but only applies to creatures with a Good alignment but works for effects/attacks of any alignment (maybe not against Good ones?).
That and version of all alignments (even possibly True Neutral).
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To be honest, I really wish they would just drop alingment based affects completely. It only hurts party builds. Just make it protective ward, that blocks mental warding and control, grants small benefits to saves/AC, and lasts 1 Round/Level. Holy Word just straight up hurts enemies, especially specific enemies of your faith/church/deity/etc. . .
Protection from Evil does not grant blanket protection from Enchantment.
"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects). "
I think this is intended to mean spells like charm, command, suggestion, domination, and probably hold. I don't think it applies to spells like hideous laughter, confusion, feeblemind, or mindfog.
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Protection from Evil does not grant blanket protection from Enchantment.
"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects). "
I think this is intended to mean spells like charm, command, suggestion, domination, and probably hold. I don't think it applies to spells like hideous laughter, confusion, feeblemind, or mindfog.
I'd agree with Confussion and Feeblemind. I am torn on Mind Fog. However, it definetly protects against Hideous Laughter. I wasn't sure if you realise every one of those is a Ench. Compulsion effect?
I guess Hideous Laughter could be considered "exercising mental control over the creature". I read the Pro Evil as protecting against others gaining control over your actions, not simply sticking you with a penalty or condition. Hideous Laughter, Calm Emotions, and Irresistible Dance are borderline by my reading because they make you laugh, chill-out, or dance, but the caster isn't given control. To me it is a gray area, but others would no doubt read it differently.
Note: in the 3.5 description the word "ongoing" was before "... mental control of the creature..."
I checked:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spells-db
And selected the enchantment school. Looks like some of the sub-schools may be off, but it is a great resource!
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I guess Hideous Laughter could be considered "exercising mental control over the creature". I read the Pro Evil as protecting against others gaining control over your actions, not simply sticking you with a penalty or condition. Hideous Laughter, Calm Emotions, and Irresistible Dance are borderline by my reading because they make you laugh, chill-out, or dance, but the caster isn't given control. To me it is a gray area, but others would no doubt read it differently.
Note: in the 3.5 description the word "ongoing" was before "... mental control of the creature..."
I checked:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spells-db
And selected the enchantment school. Looks like some of the sub-schools may be off, but it is a great resource!
Well, the thing to remember it says "spells or effects the possess or exercise mental control". Not casters that exercise mental control. Hideous Laghter definetly does.
So, back on topic for a moment...The spell is just as good as before, but narrowed to only be so good against evil sources specifically. It would seem to be a useful buff at almost any level if you have enough time to put it on before combat.
Not really, as was pointed out, it gives a deflection bonus, and a resistance bonus. This means that once you have a cloak of resistance +2 and a ring of deflection +2 the spell gives you no benefit beyond the resistance to mental influence. Since the mind influence immunity was changed to only effect evil, the spell if fairly useless.
For example, Shield of Faith, +2 deflection bonus against all alignments. Scales up to +5 at level 18. This is a nice useful level 1 spell that remains useful even at higher levels.
In the magic compendium, there was a level 2 spell conviction that gave a +2 bonus to all saves regardless of alignment. This spell scales up to +5 at level 18.
If they made the bonuses from Prot from evil go up by one every 6 levels it would actually be a really nice spell.
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So, back on topic for a moment...The spell is just as good as before, but narrowed to only be so good against evil sources specifically. It would seem to be a useful buff at almost any level if you have enough time to put it on before combat.Not really, as was pointed out, it gives a deflection bonus, and a resistance bonus. This means that once you have a cloak of resistance +2 and a ring of deflection +2 the spell gives you no benefit beyond the resistance to mental influence. Since the mind influence immunity was changed to only effect evil, the spell if fairly useless.
For example, Shield of Faith, +2 deflection bonus against all alignments. Scales up to +5 at level 18. This is a nice useful level 1 spell that remains useful even at higher levels.
In the magic compendium, there was a level 2 spell conviction that gave a +2 bonus to all saves regardless of alignment. This spell scales up to +5 at level 18.
If they made the bonuses from Prot from evil go up by one every 6 levels it would actually be a really nice spell.
Thanks, that is what I was trying to say.
So, back on topic for a moment...The spell is just as good as before, but narrowed to only be so good against evil sources specifically. It would seem to be a useful buff at almost any level if you have enough time to put it on before combat.Not really, as was pointed out, it gives a deflection bonus, and a resistance bonus. This means that once you have a cloak of resistance +2 and a ring of deflection +2 the spell gives you no benefit beyond the resistance to mental influence. Since the mind influence immunity was changed to only effect evil, the spell if fairly useless.
For example, Shield of Faith, +2 deflection bonus against all alignments. Scales up to +5 at level 18. This is a nice useful level 1 spell that remains useful even at higher levels.
In the magic compendium, there was a level 2 spell conviction that gave a +2 bonus to all saves regardless of alignment. This spell scales up to +5 at level 18.
If they made the bonuses from Prot from evil go up by one every 6 levels it would actually be a really nice spell.
Except the deflection bonus and resistance bonuses are the small fries for the spell. They are nice bonuses at low levels, when the real benefit hasn't kicked in yet because your not fighting casters or demons. Protection from a huge number of spells, even if its restricted to certain casters, is still a very nice effect at all levels, and only gets better as you go up. If you have Protection from Evil going, those spells automatically fail, and if someone has already been controlled, they get a new save. Both of those are huge effects for a 1st level spell.
I think the +2 def AC and =2 resistance to saves is almost a non issue here. It doesn't take long for standard items to overcome those.
I was concentrating more on the other(more powerful) effects of the spell.
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During a recent encounter in a campaign I'm running, a player in my campaign (a conjurer, fittingly) had the rather clever idea to summon small earth elementals and had the party's cleric cast "protection from evil" on each summoned elemental...
An enemy caster's summoned lemures couldn't touch the elementals.
Sifting through the "protection" spells, I realized that nothing can protect you against elementals... (law, chaos, evil and good can be taken care of... but elementals... nope... loophole, or am I reading this wrong?)
Edit: not only that, but elementals are now one of the few PRPG creatures that are immune to sneak/crits... so why would someone NOT summon elementals? ever?
Edit: not only that, but elementals are now one of the few PRPG creatures that are immune to sneak/crits... so why would someone NOT summon elementals? ever?
Because summoning is generally a poor combat strategy. If you're a character focused on using the summon monster spells, after SM2-3, you quickly learn that your only viable uses for summons are A) meat shields, or B) spell-like abilities. Note that "damage dealers" isn't one of those two options, so protection from alignment isn't really relevant, and elementals don't have spell-like abilities.
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The only recourse you have against a summoned elemental who has been buffed with protection vs. X is dispel magic or antimagic shield, as far as I can tell... this makes conjurers a pretty annoying foe, if not dangerous...
What about dismissal, banishment, mage disjunction, blasphemy, holy word, dictum and word of chaos?
Getting rid of summoned creatures is not that difficult, even if their alignement is N.