| 11 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've been looking over the Core book and Beastiary for some clarification on what protections an Imp familiar would have when beast shaped. I have a couple of questions and would appreciate anyone who takes the time to let me know their thoughts on them.
The rules on page 212 of the core books says that you lose Ex and Su abilities that depend on your original form (keen senses, scent, and darkvision) and any class features that depend upon form.
Question 1
Would the imp retain its DR 5/good or silver, Immunity to fire and poison, and Resistance to acid 10 and cold when it shape changed into one of its animal forms?
Question 2
Do improved familiars still get the bonuses listed on the regular familiar listed on Page 84 of the Core book? Specifically things like Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, etc..
Question 3
When under the effects of the shape-change, and using the animals natural attacks can an Imp still overcome DR on applicable creatures due to its lawful and evil subtypes.
Questions 4 and 5
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?
Just want to be rules-ready for the next game session. Thanks for any feedback.
I've been looking over the Core book and Beastiary for some clarification on what protections an Imp familiar would have when beast shaped. I have a couple of questions and would appreciate anyone who takes the time to let me know their thoughts on them.
The rules on page 212 of the core books says that you lose Ex and Su abilities that depend on your original form (keen senses, scent, and darkvision) and any class features that depend upon form.
Question 1
Would the imp retain its DR 5/good or silver, Immunity to fire and poison, and Resistance to acid 10 and cold when it shape changed into one of its animal forms?
Question 2
Do improved familiars still get the bonuses listed on the regular familiar listed on Page 84 of the Core book? Specifically things like Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, etc..
Question 3
When under the effects of the shape-change, and using the animals natural attacks can an Imp still overcome DR on applicable creatures due to its lawful and evil subtypes.
Questions 4 and 5
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?
Just want to be rules-ready for the next game session. Thanks for any feedback.
I would love to see answers for this as well.
Creative Director
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| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I tagged the FAQ flag for this post... but here's how I would resolve these issues in my game:
Question 1
Would the imp retain its DR 5/good or silver, Immunity to fire and poison, and Resistance to acid 10 and cold when it shape changed into one of its animal forms?
It does retain these defenses—the change shape ability, as detailed on page 298 of the Bestiary, says that a creature that uses this ability retains most of its own physical qualities. I would say that since these defenses do not rely upon physical shape at all that they would retain them, and furthermore, it's cool to have what appears to be a giant bug or something that's immune to fire.
Question 2
Do improved familiars still get the bonuses listed on the regular familiar listed on Page 84 of the Core book? Specifically things like Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, etc..
Yes; they gain all the bonuses save for the Intelligence score changes—they'd start at their normal Intelligence score and only increase it when their master's level is high enough that the increase would raise its new Intelligence above its base. For an imp, it wouldn't increase its Intelligence until its master hit 17th level, since that's when a familiar's Int goes up to 14 (one above the imp's normal Int of 13).
Question 3
When under the effects of the shape-change, and using the animals natural attacks can an Imp still overcome DR on applicable creatures due to its lawful and evil subtypes.
Yes. It's still a devil, even though it doesn't look like one.
Questions 4 and 5
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?
Nope; its natural AC bonus changes to +1 or +2, depending on size (as per the beast shape I spell). Dex changes would also apply.
I tagged the FAQ flag for this post... but here's how I would resolve these issues in my game:
Question 2
Do improved familiars still get the bonuses listed on the regular familiar listed on Page 84 of the Core book? Specifically things like Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, etc..
Yes; they gain all the bonuses save for the Intelligence score changes—they'd start at their normal Intelligence score and only increase it when their master's level is high enough that the increase would raise its new Intelligence above its base. For an imp, it wouldn't increase its Intelligence until its master hit 17th level, since that's when a familiar's Int goes up to 14 (one above the imp's normal Int of 13).
Nope; its natural AC bonus changes to +1 or +2, depending on size (as per the beast shape I spell). Dex changes would also apply.Questions 4 and 5
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?
So does the Imp, or other advanced familiar, get the armor bonuses from the table on page 84?
I can see it's natural bonus changing but this is an unnatural bonus that it gets for being a familiar and a beast formed familiar is still a familiar so.....
~will
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've often wondered what bonuses an improved familiar grants to the caster/master. For example a bat gives the master +3 on Fly checks, what does an Imp grant? Is it tied to what it is permitted to Change Shape into? Does the player get to choose from the list of default familiars?
Also, it seems to be a bit of a gray area and I haven't seen anything to make me believe definitively that you cannot have both a familiar and an animal companion. The rules on page 82 of the Core Rules only say that a familiar cannot also serve as an animal companion. I'm playing a Conjurer with an imp familiar and I'm headed to the Diabolist Prestige Class and the class allows an Imp animal companion. I'm just curious if I'm permitted both an imp familiar and a second imp as an animal companion per the Diabolist description. Is the Diabolist imp a "super familiar"? or just an animal companion. If it's a "super familiar" it lacks one key component to make it useful as such, namely the ability to deliver touch spells.
Seems kinda clunky that I'll have one imp that can deliver touch spells and one that can't. Any suggestions?
I've often wondered what bonuses an improved familiar grants to the caster/master. For example a bat gives the master +3 on Fly checks, what does an Imp grant? Is it tied to what it is permitted to Change Shape into? Does the player get to choose from the list of default familiars?
An improved familiar is just that, a familiar that has better abilities than the normal one. It is probably much more effective in combat (choice might effect that obviously). It is possibly (again choice dependant) smarter, stronger and more deadly than a normal familiar. What you are giving up is a minor bonus (skill or save bonus typically) for something that has more utility and possible uses.
That is a huge bonus.
Wow! We are getting answers that people have been looking for, for a very long time!
FAQ THAT BEAST!!!
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've often wondered what bonuses an improved familiar grants to the caster/master. For example a bat gives the master +3 on Fly checks, what does an Imp grant? Is it tied to what it is permitted to Change Shape into? Does the player get to choose from the list of default familiars?
An improved familiar is just that, a familiar that has better abilities than the normal one. It is probably much more effective in combat (choice might effect that obviously). It is possibly (again choice dependant) smarter, stronger and more deadly than a normal familiar. What you are giving up is a minor bonus (skill or save bonus typically) for something that has more utility and possible uses.
That is a huge bonus.
Perhaps, but I've always felt that I'm spending a feat for this improved familiar and the increased combat effectiveness should not also come with a sacrifice of that minor bonus. I think maybe a clarification might be in order in the next printing of the Core book. :)
Perhaps, but I've always felt that I'm spending a feat for this improved familiar and the increased combat effectiveness should not also come with a sacrifice of that minor bonus. I think maybe a clarification might be in order in the next printing of the Core book. :)I've often wondered what bonuses an improved familiar grants to the caster/master. For example a bat gives the master +3 on Fly checks, what does an Imp grant? Is it tied to what it is permitted to Change Shape into? Does the player get to choose from the list of default familiars?
An improved familiar is just that, a familiar that has better abilities than the normal one. It is probably much more effective in combat (choice might effect that obviously). It is possibly (again choice dependant) smarter, stronger and more deadly than a normal familiar. What you are giving up is a minor bonus (skill or save bonus typically) for something that has more utility and possible uses.
That is a huge bonus.
Apparently you are in disagreement with every incarnation of it since 3.0 lol. Any of the improved familiars give enough of a "bonus" being themselves that it over comes the lost of that minor bonus ten fold.
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Apparently you are in disagreement with every incarnation of it since 3.0 lol. Any of the improved familiars give enough of a "bonus" being themselves that it over comes the lost of that minor bonus ten fold.
I am, and I totally disagree with your assessment that they give a ten fold bonus over a small bonus from a normal familiar. Fact is they are still tied to your hit points so are still vulnerable. They don't scale their abilities as you level and for the most part stay stagnant in their combat abilities so the gain is rather minimal for a high level character.
Apparently you are in disagreement with every incarnation of it since 3.0 lol. Any of the improved familiars give enough of a "bonus" being themselves that it over comes the lost of that minor bonus ten fold.I am, and I totally disagree with your assessment that they give a ten fold bonus over a small bonus from a normal familiar. Fact is they are still tied to your hit points so are still vulnerable. They don't scale their abilities as you level and for the most part stay stagnant in their combat abilities so the gain is rather minimal for a high level character.
And yet they have better defenses, better combat abilities and DO scale, just maybe not as quickly as the rather lackluster "mobile feat" (AKA normal familiar) in some cases (IE intelligence is already higher so maybe it doesn't get anything for awhile). Otherwise everything on the table applies to the improved familiar from the start minus the type change and the speak with animals ability.
At worst we're talking about creatures who can actually do more than 1 or 2 points of damage on a regular basis (normal familiars are lucky to be able to pull of 2 points of damage on a non crit). For a character who will spend a decent amount of time in combat, even in a largely role-playing campaign that is worth it alone.
Feel free to disagree, but the numbers on the improved familiars ARE better and that alone makes the feat worth it the majority of the time. People looking at improved familiar aren't the people sticking the toad in the pocket and hiding it constantly. They are the people popping shield and mage armor, then sending in the dire rat to attack people in the enemy stronghold to inflict a disease and weaken the enemy.
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And yet they have better defenses, better combat abilities and DO scale, just maybe not as quickly as the rather lackluster "mobile feat" (AKA normal familiar) in some cases (IE intelligence is already higher so maybe it doesn't get anything for awhile). Otherwise everything on the table applies to the improved familiar from the start minus the type change and the speak with animals ability.
At worst we're talking about creatures who can actually do more than 1 or 2 points of damage on a regular basis (normal familiars are lucky to be able to pull of 2 points of damage on a non crit). For a character who will spend a decent amount of time in combat, even in a largely role-playing campaign that is worth it alone.
Feel free to disagree, but the numbers on the improved familiars ARE better and that alone makes the feat worth it the majority of the time. People looking at improved familiar aren't the people sticking the toad in the pocket and hiding it constantly. They are the people popping shield and mage armor, then sending in the dire rat to attack people in the enemy stronghold to inflict a disease and weaken the enemy.
Yes, the numbers are better...slightly. Yet, you seem to totally disregard the point of my comment. The slightly improved combat abilities do not warrant the sacrifice of a bonus that was already given for a familiar. The point of the feat is to increase the benefit you receive, not sacrifice to get something marginally better. The bonus for a normal familiar is rather marginal at best at any rate, so what is the harm in retaining the bonus when you gain an improved familiar. Do you suddenly lose your bonus if say you go from a rat to a dire rat? That makes no sense at all. When the link is formed, regardless of the familiar part of that familiars essence rubs off on you and vice versa, which is simulated by the bonus it grants. Why should that all of a sudden change when you get one that is slightly more powerful?
Yes, the numbers are better...slightly. Yet, you seem to totally disregard the point of my comment. The slightly improved combat abilities do not warrant the sacrifice of a bonus that was already given for a familiar. The point of the feat is to increase the benefit you receive, not sacrifice to get something marginally better. The bonus for a normal familiar is rather marginal at best at any rate, so what is the harm in retaining the bonus when you gain an improved familiar. Do you suddenly lose your bonus if say you go from a rat to a dire rat? That makes no sense at all. When the link is formed, regardless of the familiar part of that familiars essence rubs off on you and vice versa, which is simulated by the bonus it grants. Why should that all of a sudden change when you get one that is slightly more powerful?And yet they have better defenses, better combat abilities and DO scale, just maybe not as quickly as the rather lackluster "mobile feat" (AKA normal familiar) in some cases (IE intelligence is already higher so maybe it doesn't get anything for awhile). Otherwise everything on the table applies to the improved familiar from the start minus the type change and the speak with animals ability.
At worst we're talking about creatures who can actually do more than 1 or 2 points of damage on a regular basis (normal familiars are lucky to be able to pull of 2 points of damage on a non crit). For a character who will spend a decent amount of time in combat, even in a largely role-playing campaign that is worth it alone.
Feel free to disagree, but the numbers on the improved familiars ARE better and that alone makes the feat worth it the majority of the time. People looking at improved familiar aren't the people sticking the toad in the pocket and hiding it constantly. They are the people popping shield and mage armor, then sending in the dire rat to attack people in the enemy stronghold to inflict a disease and weaken the enemy.
I took one of the worst examples, one you could get a 3rd level... The rest of the improved familiars get exceedingly better as you level up and gain access to them. I didn't disregard a comment, I actually explained why they were better and how they didn't FAIL to scale up like you pointed out. The fact that it is a LARGE BENEFIT in combat is something you don't want to equate to a skill bonus for some reason. You took the feat, got a combat effective familiar who won't keel over when the first creature breathes on it as it attempts to make a touch attack and that somehow still doesn't qualify as a "benefit" to you? It does make sense, as it is simply better whether or not you see it to be. Simply put, you're greedy and want more I guess is the only way to see it. The abilities the improved familiar gain are much better than the effect of a simple feat (insert feat that gives skill bump here). Not to mention that the familiar doesn't cost you anything. So you're going from a minor bonus to a combat ready companion with fully buffed familiar abilities by the bond for the cost of 1 feat.
Insert text to Improved Familiar Feat:
"The bonus normally granted by a familiar is subsumed in the bond to this more powerful creature."
Problem solved.
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I took one of the worst examples, one you could get a 3rd level... The rest of the improved familiars get exceedingly better as you level up and gain access to them. I didn't disregard a comment, I actually explained why they were better and how they didn't FAIL to scale up like you pointed out. The fact that it is a LARGE BENEFIT in combat is something you don't want to equate to a skill bonus for some reason. You took the feat, got a combat effective familiar who won't keel over when the first creature breathes on it as it attempts to make a touch attack and that somehow still doesn't qualify as a "benefit" to you? It does make sense, as it is simply better whether or not you see it to be. Simply put, you're greedy and want more I guess is the only way to see it. The abilities the improved familiar gain are much better than the effect of a simple feat (insert feat that gives skill bump here). Not to mention that the familiar doesn't cost you anything. So you're going from a minor bonus to a combat ready companion with fully buffed familiar abilities by the bond for the cost of 1 feat.
Insert text to Improved Familiar Feat:
"The bonus normally granted by a familiar is subsumed in the bond to this more powerful creature."Problem solved.
Problem not solved...
I'm greedy? You don't know me to make such a definitive statement about my character. I simply see a gap in the rules as written that I don't believe should exist. Animal companions scale much better than familiars. The mechanics governing them is much more clearly defined. Animal companions can actually take hits in combat (for the most part) where a familiar, no matter how well protected, cannot, especially at the higher CR content. Just about anything you would have it attack at say, CR 9+ will end the familiar in a single full round action, should it connect. Their special abilities do not scale enough if at all. There is no feat or stat progression outside of Int. The short of it is they remain stagnant whereas an animal companion improves its overall combat ability as the master levels. A familiars progression is sporadic and clunky.
The point of an improved familiar is an increase in ability that already exists. Not ramp up 2 steps only to come back down 1. The boost in combat power is not a LARGE Benefit as you argue, it is mediocre at best. What then is the point of taking a feat that will only provide a false sense of improvement that only gets splat the first time it goes up against something that sees it as a threat or recognizes the advantage posed by eliminating the wizards (or witches) pet?
There really should be a definitive article or major update in Ultimate Magic that addresses all these matters and more.
And that's the ONLY way to see it...
Problem not solved...
I'm greedy? You don't know me to make such a definitive statement about my character. I simply see a gap in the rules as written that I don't believe should exist. Animal companions scale much better than familiars. The mechanics governing them is much more clearly defined. Animal companions can actually take hits in combat (for the most part) where a familiar, no matter how well protected, cannot, especially at the higher CR content. Just about anything you would have it attack at say, CR 9+ will end the familiar in a single full round action, should it connect. Their special abilities do not scale enough if at all. There is no feat or stat progression outside of Int. The short of it is they remain stagnant whereas an animal companion improves its overall combat ability as the master levels. A familiars progression is sporadic and clunky.
The point of an improved familiar is an increase in ability that already exists. Not ramp up 2 steps only to come back down 1. The boost in combat power is not a LARGE Benefit as you argue, it is mediocre at best. What then is the point of taking a feat that will only provide a false sense of improvement that only gets splat the first time it goes up against something that sees it as a threat or recognizes the advantage posed by eliminating the wizards (or witches) pet?
There really should be a definitive article or major update in Ultimate Magic that addresses all these matters and more.
And that's the ONLY way to see it...
Animal companions and familiars are NOT the same thing, they fill two completely different roles. You cannot even seriously compare the two. The base familiar is a liability in combat, the improved familiar is less so and somewhat functional on top of that (being able to hit and deal something other than 1-2 points of damage). That is a bonus, in and of itself even if you want to admit it or see it that way. We're talking about creatures that don't have a penalty to hit and damage that is at times equal the the full damage they could possibly roll. That is going from a -3 to hit and damage (from str alone) to actually getting a bonus to hit and damage. How many other ways can you get a flat out +6 to str or more for the cost of a feat?? And that isn't all they get, they have other abilities as well... But ok, maybe you are right and that +3 to fly isn't as good as the +6 str the improved familiar gets. Unfortunately the trade off is far better than what you are losing, so I'm calling "baloney" on that.
You keep saying that they are somehow less effective, that as time goes on they don't scale. You have yet to actually provide examples to discuss. You say you are taking 2 steps forward and one back but again no actual example or explanation besides "you don't think it should be that way." That doesn't cut it sorry, especially when the numbers tell another story. The improved familiar is just better, as it should be for the feat you are spending to get it. Are you going seriously argue that? If you call +6 str and other abilities for the cost of a minor +3 skill bump "mediocre" I think your sanity is actually in question.
It's only a false sense of improvement if you haven't got a clue what the point of a familiar is. It is never supposed to be a prime combatant, ever. No familiar is. Improved familiar just opens up BETTER abilities than the base familiars have AND give the familiar a BETTER chance of survival when things don't go as planned and they end up in combat. I never said it was supposed to be in combat, I did say it will be better in combat than the base familiars. I don't care if you don't like it, other people do. Some people actually deck out their familiars and give them items (UMD anyone?). Improved familiar is a good choice for those people even if you don't think it is worth it.
I can't speak for what will be in the next book, but I can say you seem to be the only one worked up about this. They had a chance to re work the ability, and guess what... They didn't change it much from what it was. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are in the minority with these grievous errors concerning the improved familiars. The designers didn't seem to think they needed to be changed much after all.
As that is the ONLY way to see it.... The only thing you've proved is you're arrogant, stubborn and possibly ignorant to boot. I wish I could say I was surprised.
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Animal companions and familiars are NOT the same thing, they fill two completely different roles. You cannot even seriously compare the two.
I never said they were the same, I merely pointed out the difference in scaling.
The base familiar is a liability in combat, the improved familiar is less so and somewhat functional on top of that (being able to hit and deal something other than 1-2 points of damage). That is a bonus, in and of itself even if you want to admit it or see it that way. We're talking about creatures that don't have a penalty to hit and damage that is at times equal the the full damage they could possibly roll. That is going from a -3 to hit and damage (from str alone) to actually getting a bonus to hit and damage. How many other ways can you get a flat out +6 to str or more for the cost of a feat?? And that isn't all they get, they have other abilities as well... But ok, maybe you are right and that +3 to fly isn't as good as the +6 str the improved familiar gets. Unfortunately the trade off is far better than what you are losing, so I'm calling "baloney" on that.
So what? So you get a bonus with a familiar that if he takes a single hit from a mid to high level CR creature, it is dead! Why would anyone subject their familiar, companion, or friend to such ridiculous danger? Once again, you completely bypass the entire argument! Setting up a strawman argument to make improved familiars out to be these great damage dealing tornadoes of doom...they are not!
You keep saying that they are somehow less effective, that as time goes on they don't scale. You have yet to actually provide examples to discuss.
You have yet to provide your own examples of their magnificent power! You want an example, here is one...
Let us focus on the imp as it was the topic of this thread.
Imp has 10str, that's nice. Six more points than a normal familiar would have. Dex, nothing special here, most familiars have in the range of 15 to 17. Con, slight improvement average of 6 to 8, Imps have 10 (also next to meaningless due to the link). Int is where the first slow down in scaling is apparent. They start with 13 and by the familiar progression, using the table, they can get to 14 at 17 and 15 by 19. Wis, again nothing special here, most familiars are in the 12 to 14 range. Finally, Cha, a significant increase over the average of around 2 to 5, not bad.
Now an imp's only attack is its sting. Starting at the base of +8, that's a good attack bonus for sure. However, let's look at the sting itself. 1d2 dex, DC 13. That's a +3 increase over the base stats for a viper for attack, while the poison does 1d2 Con. The save DC is 4 higher. Nice, but nothing to get all excited over. Some might even make the argument that Con damage is better than Dex damage...
The real selling point for taking an imp (or quasit for that matter) are the spell-like abilities that assist the master in making decisions and the increased access to certain skills. Commune is quite impressive even though it can only be used 1/week. Most of the other abilities an imp has are defensive in nature, not relating well to combat at all, which seems to be the focus of your argument.
Spending a feat to gain access to an imp's abilities is well justified. However, losing the primary bonus of the established link with that familiar as a consequence of taking it as a familiar just because "It's too good" leaves a gap in logic as well as what I like to call a "slap in the face" to a player who chose a familiar over a bonded object that can be enchanted without the required feats. Of course, that in itself is a discussion for another thread.
Despite all the improved numbers or abilities, there is the primary weakness inherent in a familiar, 1/2 the master's hp.
You say you are taking 2 steps forward and one back but again no actual example or explanation besides "you don't think it should be that way." That doesn't cut it sorry, especially when the numbers tell another story. The improved familiar is just better, as it should be for the feat you are spending to get it. Are you going seriously argue that? If you call +6 str and other abilities for the cost of a minor +3 skill bump "mediocre" I think your sanity is actually in question.
My sanity is in question now? Tell me how the numbers tell a different story, I'm all ears...
It's only a false sense of improvement if you haven't got a clue what the point of a familiar is. It is never supposed to be a prime combatant, ever. No familiar is. Improved familiar just opens up BETTER abilities than the base familiars have AND give the familiar a BETTER chance of survival when things don't go as planned and they end up in combat. I never said it was supposed to be in combat, I did say it will be better in combat than the base familiars. I don't care if you don't like it, other people do. Some people actually deck out their familiars and give them items (UMD anyone?). Improved familiar is a good choice for those people even if you don't think it is worth it.
These "people" you refer to also seem hell bent on min/maxing the game. You can pass off giving an imp a ring for some protection as a bit of a reward, decking one out on the other hand, is abuse, though perfectly allowable by the rules.
I never said Improved Familiar was a bad choice, or that it wasn't worth it, you seem to be willfully ignoring what is obviously a rhetorical question. Improving the capabilities of a vulnerable companion/familiar is only logical. That still does not address the nonsensical revocation of a core ability in the familiar link. If it's such a minor bonus, which I believe it to be, why make such a big stink about it? Does it really break the game? Really?
I can't speak for what will be in the next book, but I can say you seem to be the only one worked up about this. They had a chance to re work the ability, and guess what... They didn't change it much from what it was. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are in the minority with these grievous errors concerning the improved familiars. The designers didn't seem to think they needed to be changed much after all.
I'm starting to wonder now if you are just trolling me now, or if you are just arguing for the sake of argument...
Maybe I am in the minority on this, so what? That does not invalidate my argument. I'm merely pointing out what I and others see as a gap in the rules and want to see it addressed. You are the one who is getting all worked up about it, getting insulting. I'm just trying to have a spirited discussion...
As that is the ONLY way to see it.... The only thing you've proved is you're arrogant, stubborn and possibly ignorant to boot. I wish I could say I was surprised.
Wow, you really are on a role there. Arrogant, greedy, stubborn, and ignorant. If I didn't know better, those sound like insults to me. Good thing I don't take offense easily or I might be inclined to retaliate. It must mean I'm getting under your skin...irony is sweet, oh so sweet...
Animal companions and familiars are NOT the same thing, they fill two completely different roles. You cannot even seriously compare the two.I never said they were the same, I merely pointed out the difference in scaling.
The base familiar is a liability in combat, the improved familiar is less so and somewhat functional on top of that (being able to hit and deal something other than 1-2 points of damage). That is a bonus, in and of itself even if you want to admit it or see it that way. We're talking about creatures that don't have a penalty to hit and damage that is at times equal the the full damage they could possibly roll. That is going from a -3 to hit and damage (from str alone) to actually getting a bonus to hit and damage. How many other ways can you get a flat out +6 to str or more for the cost of a feat?? And that isn't all they get, they have other abilities as well... But ok, maybe you are right and that +3 to fly isn't as good as the +6 str the improved familiar gets. Unfortunately the trade off is far better than what you are losing, so I'm calling "baloney" on that.So what? So you get a bonus with a familiar that if he takes a single hit from a mid to high level CR creature, it is dead! Why would anyone subject their familiar, companion, or friend to such ridiculous danger? Once again, you completely bypass the entire argument! Setting up a strawman argument to make improved familiars out to be these great damage dealing tornadoes of doom...they are not!
You keep saying that they are somehow less effective, that as time goes on they don't scale. You have yet to actually provide examples to discuss.You have yet to provide your own examples of their magnificent power! You want an example, here is one...
Let us focus on the imp as it was the topic of this thread.
Imp has 10str, that's nice. Six more points than a normal familiar would have. Dex, nothing special here, most familiars have in the range of 15 to 17. Con, slight...
If I were trolling you'd know it, as for the insults.... I'm not the one who said there is only ONE way to look at something, when there are at least two sides. If you think "you're getting under my skin".... Well whatever helps you sleep at night and feed the ego. The last statement you made in your second to last post proved without a doubt everything I said, which was why I said it. As you "have it right" you've proven yourself to not be worth debating with as your own ego seems to be keeping you from seeing anything beyond you "your right answer". Thanks for reminding me what type of people frequent the internet forums, I'd almost forgotten and I actually needed a laugh today. At least you've proven yourself to be worthy of something I guess.
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If I were trolling you'd know it, as for the insults.... I'm not the one who said there is only ONE way to look at something, when there are at least two sides. If you think "you're getting under my skin".... Well whatever helps you sleep at night and feed the ego. The last statement you made in your second to last post proved without a doubt everything I said, which was why I said it. As you "have it right" you've proven yourself to not be worth debating with as your own ego seems to be keeping you from seeing anything beyond you "your right answer". Thanks for reminding me what type of people frequent the internet forums, I'd almost forgotten and I actually needed a laugh today. At least you've proven yourself to be worthy of something I guess.
Wow, you really are delusional. Apparently, you forget your own words, which prompted a reply. I'll quote from an earlier post...
Simply put, you're greedy and want more I guess is the only way to see it.
Emphasis mine. Your words not mine. The obvious meaning that only you could be right. So, you blatantly lie about not having said the statement in contention. Second, you claim the evidence I propose supports your point, which it does not. You still have not provided any evidence to support your theory. Third, once again you continue your litany of insults and jabs. Conclusion, you are a troll and will no longer be responded to in any fashion no matter how much you try to bait me.
Hegel would be proud of you...
Simply put, you're greedy and want more I guess is the only way to see it.Emphasis mine. Your words not mine. The obvious meaning that only you could be right. So, you blatantly lie about not having said the statement in contention. Second, you claim the evidence I propose supports your point, which it does not. You still have not provided any evidence to support your theory. Third, once again you continue your litany of insults and jabs. Conclusion, you are a troll and will no longer be responded to in any fashion no matter how much you try to bait me.
Hegel would be proud of you...
From which I was responding to the fact that you want more than a numerically superior familiar that scales the same as the base familiar (which you said it didn't as part of your "argument") for the cost of the feat.
The only "obvious" thing at this point is you want to be insulted and are looking for it to happen. The "obvious" meaning was that you wanted more than it provides, when what it provides is enough. Welcome to reading comp 101. It had nothing to do with stating my opinion being the ONLY right one, but feel free to read into what I write at any time. It was a remark regarding your complete and total denial that the feat could in fact be "worth" it when there are obvious benefits. That the extra abilities and better statics were grossly and horribly less effective than the skill bump provided by the base familiar. Wanting more than the given benefit when that benefit is of significantly greater value (attributes, abilities and utility have all been increased) than what it was, is pretty much the definition of "greedy." Thus the statement.You take Improved Familiar to get a better familiar which in turn increases the options it provides for you.
But you want more than the bonuses it provides.
You haven't gotten any "evidence," you're spouting your wants and claiming imbalances but have yet to actually provide "evidence" to support your claims. I've made points, I've given examples that actually show there is in fact a benefit and discredited your claim that it doesn't scale the same as a regular familiar. Then you compared it to an animal companion... I began to wonder if you even knew what you were trying to argue other than "you're right." Which you answered by stating it is the ONLY way to see it.
If I was attempting to be insulting I'd be insulting. To point, I've only made observations about you from what you have written. And you continue to provide a basis for those descriptions. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm calling a spade a spade and you what you have shown yourself to be.
To be a troll, I'd have to be trying to bait you, I'd be posting off topic and extraneous statements. I've been decidedly on topic in regards to your obviously biased and lacking "argument" (if it could be called that at this point) regarding Improved Familiars and given pertinent examples to help my argument (as opposed to trying to compare familiars to animal companions). You have yet to provide much of anything pertinent besides your opinions and utter disdain of it.
To be a troll, I'd have to actually care about you. I don't, the only thing remotely worth caring about is making sure your posts are shown to be what they are, prejudiced to the point absurdity if not down right irrational. Feel free to be "insulted" by observations based on your own posts. At worst you're doing a public service by not posting anymore, Thank You.
I've been looking over the Core book and Beastiary for some clarification on what protections an Imp familiar would have when beast shaped. I have a couple of questions and would appreciate anyone who takes the time to let me know their thoughts on them.
The rules on page 212 of the core books says that you lose Ex and Su abilities that depend on your original form (keen senses, scent, and darkvision) and any class features that depend upon form.
Question 1
Would the imp retain its DR 5/good or silver, Immunity to fire and poison, and Resistance to acid 10 and cold when it shape changed into one of its animal forms?
Question 2
Do improved familiars still get the bonuses listed on the regular familiar listed on Page 84 of the Core book? Specifically things like Improved Evasion, Empathic Link, etc..
Question 3
When under the effects of the shape-change, and using the animals natural attacks can an Imp still overcome DR on applicable creatures due to its lawful and evil subtypes.
Questions 4 and 5
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?
Just want to be rules-ready for the next game session. Thanks for any feedback.
When usig the imps change Shape ability, the above answers should be correct. However, should you Share Spell a Beast Shape spell on the imp, the regular polymorph rules should apply, negating the DR, Immunity and resistance. Then he even wouldn't harm good DR anymore, since that is tied to DR.
Does the imp keep its natural AC bonus when it shape-changes? Does its AC change only if its Dex changes due to a size change?Nope; its natural AC bonus changes to +1 or +2, depending on size (as per the beast shape I spell). Dex changes would also apply.
Doesn't that conflict with the specific rule for Change Shape (as oppposed to general Polymorph effects), which you yourself cited:
Although ultimately, we're just left with the inconclusive "retains MOST OF it's own physical qualities" reference...
Similar questions have popped up from time to time, most recently here.
That thread seemed to come to the conclusion that the "Change Shape" references/derivations from a specific Polymorph spell (e.g. Beast Shape I) while negating basically every feature of said spells (stat bonuses, ability replacements) had simply no functional benefit and was just confusing... The only remaining relevant information from the spell would be it's limitation of valid creatures, but the Change Shape abilities themselves usually give an even more limited list... and if some 'unlimited' Change Shape ability needed to grant the 'full' list of said spell it is less confusing to just repeat that list (e.g. Tiny to Large Animals) rather than reference a spell whose remaining qualities all don't apply to Change Shape.
For Polymorph effects in general, I don't think it's ever been clarified exactly what abilities are tied to your 'form' and which are 'formless'.
Darkvision? Telepathy? DR? While some abilities are clearly form-derived, some are totally unclear,
one could craft an explanation for either to be the case, racial abilities themselves can and do cross over into 'social' aspects,
and many features could be 'metaphysical' based rather than form based, nothing really gives a clue there.
I don't know how best to resolve that, as there is simply hundreds of potential abilities, but some guidance would be great.