Oh, for pete's sa... why do you think it's nerfed!? You get more bonus for less penalty, that doesn't seem nerfed to me.This reminds me. I was just looking at Power Attack earlier and wondering why it got nerfed.People were complaining about Power Attack, and all that, and I said that a Good barbarian should down almost any level apropriate challenge in 2 or 3 rounds.
But still lagged behind the Fighter in survivability, or something like that.
You get more bonus for less penalty, agreed. That's good. But you also get a far more significant cap. Oh, and the inability to decide the penalty you want to take.
+1 positive
-2 negatives
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Result: nerf
Ok, granted. But I like it better, WAY easier to track and use, that "I use 2 in PA" crap had to go. And the way damage is now it REALLY would be way to much if it was like before.
HOWEVER! There is one thing I'll concede, it should be a LITTLE better cause I think it should deal more damage than that damned Deadly Aim...I HATE that archery is WAY better than anyother build now, it seriously sadden me.
Yes, but it was 1 or 2 rounds, not 2 or 3. :) I Edited.You're not doing 200 DPR at level 12 without non-core stuff, and I seriously doubt you're pulling 100 DPR out of your butt, especially with one round as a non-full-attack. I don't need to make a full build to tell you that.
Come to think about it, you are correct. What if a full-attack at first round is possible? Remember the pounce discussion?
How come that fighter could do it with arrows vs a balor? Remember that one?
3 rounds I think it's possible, not sure he survives though.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29
I was wondering about thoughts on that class-rebuild. Anyone already familiar with it?
Myself, some things are neat, others are OMG!!! BUT I offer it up as a source to *mine* for additional tweaks to the barbarian class.
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http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29
I was wondering about thoughts on that class-rebuild. Anyone already familiar with it?
Myself, some things are neat, others are OMG!!! BUT I offer it up as a source to *mine* for additional tweaks to the barbarian class.
Emphasis on the ones that are OMG, how does command feat equal a +2 untyped saving throw bonus.
I'm tempted to revise the Barbarian so that it gets bonus feats on the levels that it currently gets rage powers. My thinking is that the Barbarian should be useful outside of rage and that rage powers in general are weaker than feats (IMHO too weak and limited). Bonus feats would give the class additional customization; if you want an archery barbarian you can build one, or a two weapon barbarian, etc.
The question is does this make the Barbarian to strong vis-a-vis the Fighter and Paladin? I'm not super concerned about the Ranger - I plan on revising that one in other ways.
My thinking is the Fighter is the heavily armored tank fighter, whereas the Barbarian would be the lightly armored mobile fighter. The fighter would have a better AC but barbarian could take more damage. DPR would be similar due to the rage being roughly comparable to weapon specialization + weapon training.
Too powerful? Or just about right?
I think it could be further balanced by making the Barbarian Bonus feat list smaller than the Fighter Bonus feat list (ignoring fighter only feats of course).
I don't find Barbarians weak at all. They appear so on paper but play one and they aren't. Rage once you get past the first few levels doesn't run out before you get a chance to rest. At 4 rounds plus you con bonus and 2 round per level after 1st with the feat extra rage give you on average 18 rounds a day at 3rd level. Doesn't look like much but I find at this point is where I rarely start running out and as I go up in level I get more rage to spend. By 15th level I could have over 50 rounds.
That's the issue though. Sure you may rage good but it's limited and leaves you fatigued. I don't much care for that. But in play the limitations rarely come up. Fights are over quick or if not they end in resting and healing. It's rare to be ambushed minutes after a fight and we don't move on quickly and time is spent searching for loot. But when it comes down to it in the end I prefer the reliability of the fighter weapon training and feats that work all the time on anyone.
I don't think the Barbarian need anything at all unless what you want is Barbarian to be a better fighter than any of the melee classes.
@Galnörag: On that rebuild above - yes - it's a lot of OMG, but the idea's themselves are rather interesting. Fast Healing is really a neat idea - I could see bumping that in even as a rage power of some sort (maybe 2/each rage power dedicated to it? or a doubling w/a cap of some sort? or just progression w/cap of some sort?).
The "rage dice" thing is ... CRAZY, but interesting in implementation - it firmly puts Barbarians as damage-dealers supreme (which they really *should* be, IMO), but that progression I am NOT a fan of at all. That's like rogue sneak attack w/out needing to meet any of the sneak conditions at all ... WAY powerful. However, a few more die .. capping out at say .. 4d maybe(?) could very well be a nice bit of "oompf" w/out going overboard.
@vuron: I *think* that your idea can work provided you REALLY reduce the feat #'s compared to Fighters. Currently rage powers = fighter bonus feats (-1), so giving them a few genuine feats in place of the highly restricted rage powers could work *ok*, but I'd still rather see Barbarians going further into defining their role somehow. It will help, granting them non-rage utility in combat, BUT it really steps on fighter toes, IMO. Not too badly as fighters still have Armor Training and Weapon Training, but still - enough to change the tone of the barbarian a bit from the unrefined, brute into a bit of 'student of war' like a Fighter is. I'm thinking that maybe like 1/3 of Fighter feats tops maybe?
Not the greatest fix, but a step in the right direction anyway, IMO. It's simple and easy enough to implement, so that itself is an advantage.
@vuron: I *think* that your idea can work provided you REALLY reduce the feat #'s compared to Fighters. Currently rage powers = fighter bonus feats (-1), so giving them a few genuine feats in place of the highly restricted rage powers could work *ok*, but I'd still rather see Barbarians going further into defining their role somehow. It will help, granting them non-rage utility in combat, BUT it really steps on fighter toes, IMO. Not too badly as fighters still have Armor Training and Weapon Training, but still - enough to change the tone of the barbarian a bit from the unrefined, brute into a bit of 'student of war' like a Fighter is. I'm thinking that maybe like 1/3 of Fighter feats tops maybe?Not the greatest fix, but a step in the right direction anyway, IMO. It's simple and easy enough to implement, so that itself is an advantage.
Well I sort of think of rage powers as 1/2 a fighter reat in most cases.
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Yes I think the barbarian is weak compared to the other melee classes. The barbarian has a combat power that is limited but nothing compared to the paladin. The barbarian's limited power dosen't even stack up well compared to the fighter with weapon traning, focus and spec plus the greater varietes. The armor damage reduction of the fighter is a complete game breaker at the high levels as is the fighter only feats at the high levels.
The barbarian has nothing to compare to these powers. Why is the fighter the only combat character that can bypass 10 or 5 points of DR? Sure the paladin can do that on a limited basis with smites vs evil opponents but it dosen't compare to the fighter. Why does the fighter get DR 5 at level 17? Seems overbalanced. Not to mention the overblown/broken feats in the fighter tree that fall under the improved critical threat tree. The barbarian has nothing to compare to.
The barbarian either needs to have a sustained rage that you do not have to track or the rage needs to be rare but ungodly powerful ala the paladin smite. Maybe instead of extra damage the barbarian should gain a huge boost to damage reduction and gain fast healing at 10 or 15. The barbarian could be like a raging animal that can withstand an inhuman amount of punishment before dying. This could also make sense with the poor to moderate AC that barbarians tend to have since when you go beserk you tend not to care one wit about defending yourself and instead focus on rending your enemies limb from limb.
Since this was the original thread that got all this started, check out my attempt to re-balance/re-build the Barbarian class. I took a LOT of inspiration from this thread to get it all going.
Here's the thread: Speaker's Barbarian Version 3.0
Pop in and critique it lads and ladies, all! I'm especially interested in the thoughts of those that participated here.