After our very first session last night, our group got into a bit of a heated discussion regarding the XP awards we received.
Over the course of the session, we faced 3 orcs, which are CR 1/3. The DM gave us the XP for them individually (135 x 3, and then split five ways four our party size).
One player maintains that the three orcs should have counted as a CR 3 encounter, though, because of the CR Equivalencies table (12-3, I think).
I'm pretty sure that he's incorrect and that table isn't meant to apply directly to creatures with fractional CR because, just as in 3.5 D&D, you add fractional creatures up to create a "full" CR to determine difficulty of the encounter.
However, Pathfinder says this nowhere explicitly, and the process of determining XP is different enough that I can't be sure I'm correct.
Can anyone point out where this is stated or otherwise clarify what's going on here?
Table 12-3 is just there to help do some of the math for the GM when dealing with higher levels and large xp values.
The table actually follows the progression all the way from 1/8 on up, but is more of an aide when those numbers get bigger.
The player could argue that it was a CR 2 encounter with three Orcs because shifting three steps up from the 1/3 row results in CR 2, with 600xp to give out to players.
However, a session isn't (at least normally) just one encounter. If you faced each Orc in different situations and they fought alone then each encounter is only 1/3. Having a whole party gang up on a lone Orc isn't much of a challenge, but facing three Orcs at once could be more of a challenge, and thus a bump in XP.
It should also be noted that the tables make more sense when looking at it from the perspective of the "Step 3 - Build an Encounter" section. The tables are assuming the GM is in advance building encounters up by first establishing the CR and then filling up that CR's value in XP.
If the GM is playing more free form, tossing random monsters here and there, which is perfectly fine, then the GM just has to go back and establish the overall CR for each encounter, then dole out xp.
The key thing though is seeing what an encounter as its own isolated period of time when the players were challenged. If the players can regroup between fights, such as heal, rest, or continue exploring, then there are separate encounters.
First of all, the Pathfinder experience rules are best done when calculating the experience of each monster individually in a combat. The 'equivalencies' can help, and actually do often come out to the same number, though with some variations. See below:
CR 2 creature as example
Individually (Number of monsters - experience)
1 - 600
2 - 1200
3 - 1800
4 - 2400
5 - 3000
6 - 3600
7 - 4200
8 - 4800
Equivalency Table (Number of monsters - CR - experience)
1 - 2 - 600
2 - 4 - 1200
3 - 5 - 1600
4 - 6 - 2400
5 - Not on table
6 - 7 - 3200
7 - Not on table
8 - 8 - 4800
As you can see, the numbers are often the same, with some small deviations above or below.
In any case, this example doesn't really cover your issue. The problem is that even if you use those tables, three CR 1/3s does not add up to a CR 3. Remember that with fractional CRs there are other fractions you must go up to first. In all, the order is like so (from largest to smallest):
1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8
So if you take three CR 1/3s (CR + 3), you would go from 1/3 to 1/2, from 1/2 to 1, and from 1 to 2, so three 1/3 creatures is an approximate level 2 encounter. Individually, the three 1/3 creatures are worth 135 each or 405 total, which is actually closer to a CR 1 of 400. A CR 2 would be 600.
I may sound kind of contradicting, but like I said, it isn't perfect. The *key* thing to take note of though is that the Equivalency Table is written for 'high CR encounters', using examples of CR 8s and 12s. For low level encounters, *especially* fractional encounters where the CRs are already messy, you should definitely add up experience for each monster individually.
Oh, and this is the text that indicates you should add everything up individually.
Pathfinder RPG wrote:
Keep a list of the CRs of all the monsters, traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters the PCs overcome. At the end of each session, award XP to each PC that participated. Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR, regardless of the level of the party in relation to the challenge, although you should never bother awarding XP for challenges that have a CR of 10 or more lower than the APL. Pure roleplaying encounters generally have a CR equal to the average level of the party (although particularly easy or difficult roleplaying encounters might be one higher or lower). There are two methods for awarding XP. While one is more exact, it requires a calculator for ease of use. The other is slightly more abstract.
Exact XP: Once the game session is over, take your list of defeated CR numbers and look up the value of each CR on Table: Experience Point Awards under the “Total XP” column. Add up the XP values for each CR and then divide this total by the number of characters—each character earns an amount of XP equal to this number.
Abstract XP: Simply add up the individual XP awards listed for a group of the appropriate size. In this case, the division is done for you—you need only total up all the awards to determine how many XP to award to each PC.
It's not horribly specific, but the whole 'each monster' being worth its own CR always seemed to indicate you should add up stuff individually (unless the CR and experience numbers are just crazy high, in which case the equivalency table does help)
Karui Kage wrote: In any case, this example doesn't really cover your issue. The problem is that even if you use those tables, three CR 1/3s does not add up to a CR 3. Remember that with fractional CRs there are other fractions you must go up to first. In all, the order is like so (from largest to smallest):
1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8
Any clue where that is specifically in the section? I was wondering if the fractions were supposed to count as individual steps when using the CR Equivalencies table last night, but couldn't find it anywhere.
CR 2 seems a bit more accurate, at least, than CR 3.
Personally, I'd prefer using the Exact XP method, but I'm not running the game this time, heh.
Kevin Morris wrote: Karui Kage wrote: In any case, this example doesn't really cover your issue. The problem is that even if you use those tables, three CR 1/3s does not add up to a CR 3. Remember that with fractional CRs there are other fractions you must go up to first. In all, the order is like so (from largest to smallest):
1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8
Any clue where that is specifically in the section? I was wondering if the fractions were supposed to count as individual steps when using the CR Equivalencies table last night, but couldn't find it anywhere. It does say that each such fraction is it's own step. It speaks about going down the chart, but it would be very far fetched for someone to claim that the same rules wouldn't apply when going up the chart.
PRD wrote: A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8. Now, that said, this is pretty irrelevant. The charts itself are there only to help you avoid any math. The rules say:
PRD wrote: Step 3—Build the Encounter: Determine the total XP award for the encounter by looking it up by its CR on Table: Experience Point Awards. This gives you an “XP budget” for the encounter. Every creature, trap, and hazard is worth an amount of XP determined by its CR, as noted on Table: Experience Point Awards Now...
CR 1 encounter is worth 400 exp. CR 1/3 orc is worth 135 exp. So 3 orc = CR 1 encounter.
CR 2 encounter is worth 600 exp. CR 1/3 orc is worth 135 exp. So 4-5 orcs = CR 2 encounter.
CR 2 encounter is worth 600 exp. CR 1/3 orc is worth 135 exp and CR 1/2 tiefling is worth 200 exp. So 1 tiefling and 3 orcs = 600 exp = CR 2. Similarly, 2 tieflings and 1-2 orcs is about 600 exp = CR 2 encounter.
The charts are there only to show this: Gnoll is CR 1, worth 400 exp.
-1 gnoll = 400 exp = CR 1 encounter
-2 gnolls = 800 exp = CR 3 encounter
-3 gnolls = 1200 exp = CR 4 encounter
-4 gnolls = 1600 exp = CR 5 encounter
-6 gnolls = 2400 exp = CR 6 encounter
-8 gnolls = 2400 exp = CR 7 encounter
...
That chart indeed doesn't work that well for fractional CRs... Except when you consider creatures as groups. In that table, each gnoll would be equivalent to three orcs.
Yes, that's pretty much what I tried to emphasize: 3 orcs are supposed to be equivalent to CR 1 and that you can find that by following XP budgets.
The other player was adamant, though, and now feels vindicated because you can use that chart for fractional CRs as long as you go up the proper steps.
He's convinced the DM to give us bonus XP, and even spent awhile yesterday working out a "system" with him for granting bonus XP for fighting multiple monsters at once.
I'm not really a fan of it, myself. We're going to be leveling very fast now, given that 95% of all encounters the DM runs involve large numbers of creatures.
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