Mairk, I hate do disagree with someone who actualy does have a superior intellect, but I'm afraid you're misinformed.
** spoiler omitted **
;)
Both are true. Yours, more so.
Hello, Berselius.
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On a slightly more serious note, has anyone else realized that so many of the guys out there that try to talk like they're some type of evil badass are just little dweebs who like to quote dark poetry? I mean honestly just because you watch vampire movies in the dark, my 5 year old does that, and read Poe you think you're evil? Of course these are the same guys that cry when they don't get their way. What a bunch of doushebags.
Yeah, but do they wear evil eye make-up?
On a slightly more serious note, has anyone else realized that so many of the guys out there that try to talk like they're some type of evil badass are just little dweebs who like to quote dark poetry? I mean honestly just because you watch vampire movies in the dark, my 5 year old does that, and read Poe you think you're evil? Of course these are the same guys that cry when they don't get their way. What a bunch of doushebags.
Are you referring to the outpouring of my soul in my profile? How dare you, sir.
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On a slightly more serious note, has anyone else realized that so many of the guys out there that try to talk like they're some type of evil badass are just little dweebs who like to quote dark poetry? I mean honestly just because you watch vampire movies in the dark, my 5 year old does that, and read Poe you think you're evil? Of course these are the same guys that cry when they don't get their way. What a bunch of doushebags.Are you referring to the outpouring of my soul in my profile? How dare you, sir.
I said guys, what makes you think I was refering to you sweetie.
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stuff
Sounds like you had a great group of gamers, the mature kind who can handle playing evil throughout the length of an AP. I noticed you said that some members of the party were kept in line by the cabal of Hextor worshippers. Sounds about like what some of us would expect to have a successful evil party. That, and the way you guys made sure everyone had an major stake in the outcome.
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Most players seem to forget that there are two components to alignment. A lawful evil character will behave in a much different manner than a chaotic evil character will. Take Star Wars Episodes 1-3 for example. Darth Maul was a great chaotic evil character in that he was not so much an agent to dispatch as he was a force of destruction to be unleashd. On the other hand Cout Dooku, in my mind one of the best characters to come out of the prequal era, was lawful evil, using treachery, flattery, and seduction to achieve his ends, only resorting to violence when it became needed. I think all too often we pay attention to the good/evil axis of a characters alignment without looking at the law/chaos axis.
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I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.
Never said it couldn't be done, just said it's not common.
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I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.
I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
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I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
I do think several of us have made it clear we have no interest in even trying to run an evil campaign. That hold for me regardless of the talent and maturity of the people involved.
Who was that dude who enjoyed eating people? I heard he was real talented and mature...
Most players seem to forget that there are two components to alignment. A lawful evil character will behave in a much different manner than a chaotic evil character will. Take Star Wars Episodes 1-3 for example. Darth Maul was a great chaotic evil character in that he was not so much an agent to dispatch as he was a force of destruction to be unleashd. On the other hand Cout Dooku, in my mind one of the best characters to come out of the prequal era, was lawful evil, using treachery, flattery, and seduction to achieve his ends, only resorting to violence when it became needed. I think all too often we pay attention to the good/evil axis of a characters alignment without looking at the law/chaos axis.
Count Dooku - misunderstood hero with a dumb name. If the Jedi had only listened to him, no evil empire with a giant clone army, etc.
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I do think several of us have made it clear we have no interest in even trying to run an evil campaign. That hold for me regardless of the talent and maturity of the people involved.I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
However, in my opinion, not haveing a desire to run an evil campaign is not the same as saying it can't be done.
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However, in my opinion, not haveing a desire to run an evil campaign is not the same as saying it can't be done.I do think several of us have made it clear we have no interest in even trying to run an evil campaign. That hold for me regardless of the talent and maturity of the people involved.I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
Didn't FatR say it couldn't be done? I think there were a few others who echoed that sentiment.
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Didn't FatR say it couldn't be done? I think there were a few others who echoed that sentiment.However, in my opinion, not haveing a desire to run an evil campaign is not the same as saying it can't be done.I do think several of us have made it clear we have no interest in even trying to run an evil campaign. That hold for me regardless of the talent and maturity of the people involved.I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
Like I said to begin with, I skipped a few pages so I may have missed something.
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It's fine, man.
I don't think that making a few rules like a no interparty backstabbing rule would make it any less fun. You don't NEED the rules if your party isn't immature, but I think it's like having new players in your party who don't know what being good means, if you know what I'm saying.
Setting a few ground rules helps make the game run smoother in any game you run. The no goofing off in character rule that most DMs implement is the same thing, it just makes for a better game.
Like I said to begin with, I skipped a few pages so I may have missed something.
Well you need to lurk moar. The statement was made.
EDIT
This sounded harsher than I intended. I was mostly making a /b joke.
Like I said to begin with, I skipped a few pages so I may have missed something.Didn't FatR say it couldn't be done? I think there were a few others who echoed that sentiment.However, in my opinion, not haveing a desire to run an evil campaign is not the same as saying it can't be done.I do think several of us have made it clear we have no interest in even trying to run an evil campaign. That hold for me regardless of the talent and maturity of the people involved.I think it's really funny how some people don't believe that you can run an evil game without getting bored or killed after the first five minutes, and yet we have people who have had campaigns centered around an evil party lasting 20+ years.I admit to skipping through part of the thread, but I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done, just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.
Can't be done...shouldn't be done. Evil has such a hard time telling the difference between those two.
Like I said to begin with, I skipped a few pages so I may have missed something.Well you need to lurk moar. The statement was made.
EDIT
This sounded harsher than I intended. I was mostly making a /b joke.
Eat the wasabi!
....just that it takes the right mix of characters and players to do it. And if players ran true to alignmet in a chaotic evil party the tracks pretty much would come off in a few sessions.Nail on the head, David. I think that about sums it up best.
I personally disagree with this sentament, though I find myself defining alignment different than a lot of people. Chaotic Evil to me says that you are self serving and don't mind stepping on other people. Your thought processes are irradic and you don't respect authority.
That does not mean you can't build strong, lasting friendships built on mutual trust and understanding. It just takes someone with a little more understanding. They understand that you are only acting on their behalf so long as its in your interest. This is how I see almost all shadowrun parties.
Like I said to begin with, I skipped a few pages so I may have missed something.Well you need to lurk moar. The statement was made.
EDIT
This sounded harsher than I intended. I was mostly making a /b joke.
Thanks for the clarification, Kuma. I swallowed a retort, wisely, as it turns out.
I just want to chime in and say I have no desire for an evil AP. Evil campaigns seem like they could be a lot of fun to run or play, but IMO the campaign would be pretty quickly run off the tracks in favor of pursuing the various evil plots that the PCs are scheming.
Good campaigns work because the good characters (and their neutral friends) see evil, injustice, or people in need of help, and they do what they can to help.
Good and neutral characters usually have an agenda of their own, but they are content to just do good things and further that agenda when they can.
Evil characters tend to have their agenda at the forefront of their priorities, and so I think an evil campaign would have to be much more railroad-ey. Conversely, I think evil characters are great for writing their own adventures, because their strong motivation to conquer/enslave/destroy/whatever fills out the story, all the DM needs to do is come up with interesting challenges along the way.
Just my 2cp.
There is wisdom in your words, but that doesn't mean evil can't be the same way.
Except instead of helping people, when they see weakness, profit and oppurtunity, they seize it.
I would go on at length but I've already written extensively about it. In fact I've written tons about it.
I don't trust myself DMing an all-evil campaign with actual substance. I remember the Tzimisce I played in an old V:tM campaign. I really want to keep my friends.
Dear Paizo Messageboard Posters,
Evil is easy. You work first and foremost towards pleasing yourself, because the most important thing in the world is pleasing yourself. The baatezu and yugoloths (I'm a 2nd edition succubus at heart you will note) simply don't understand this, and aren't properly evil. Only tanar'ri are genuinely evil.
And yes, anyone can be evil, or at least aspire to be. (Well okay, maybe not Asmodeus... he's too much into that ruby-rod stuff to ever be acceptable as evil, but anyone else can at least have a go.)
Being stupid and careless is easy too. You don't pay any attention to how others who could be more powerful than you might react, and fail to take that into account when trying to get what you want. Suppose the thing I most want in the world at a particular point is an ice-cream. Now if there isn't anyone else around apart from the flumph running the ice-cream stall, and the flumph is watching a hockey game in a crystal ball, I can pop into the ethereal, sneak around behind the flumph, and help myself to whatever ice-cream I want. Now suppose the flumph is accompanied by a couple of those fallen-angel wannabe under-rated XP value erinyes. (As I said, I'm a second edition sucubus at heart.) Those things have true-seeing, so sneaking through the ethereal might not work. If I were stupid or careless I might try it anyway. But it would make much more sense to go away and charm a merchant not-quite-wealthy-enough-to-afford-magical-protections-against-charms to go and buy me an ice cream instead. Yes it would take longer, but th end result would be an ice-cream obtained in a manner that avoided causing myself potential grief from those erinyes.
Now suppose that the flumph for some really weird reason is guarded by a mixed handful of archons. Charming a merchant simply isn't going to cut it, as do-gooder archons might notice the charm and go out of their way to dispel it. Trying to sneak an ice-cream isn't going to work either. So instead, I have to go away and actually do a hard day's work to actually earn some money, but boy, when I walk upto that ice-cream stall and pay for that ice-cream, with all those archons fuming and glaring at me because it's going to look really bad if they break their rules and beat up a fiend without provocation, it's going to be fun.
I hope this clarifies some things for you.
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We've discussed the approach, motivations and character drives of being evil so now I'm interested in what would a working evil campaign entail for story. I've decided to start a new thread though which you can find here.
Thanks for the clarification, Kuma. I swallowed a retort, wisely, as it turns out.
No worries, I should've read it twice before posting.
Evil is easy.
Indeed. As a privation of the good, much of it is all too easy.
I can be evil, really I can.
I can be evil, really I can.
If your eyes glow (any color but silver or gold) you've already got like +10 evil points right there.
Hooray! That alone probably makes me the Most Evil person on this thread!I can be evil, really I can.If your eyes glow (any color but silver or gold) you've already got like +10 evil points right there.
No, because your eyes glow silver.
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No, because your eyes glow silver.Hooray! That alone probably makes me the Most Evil person on this thread!I can be evil, really I can.If your eyes glow (any color but silver or gold) you've already got like +10 evil points right there.
My eyes glow *WHITE*, not silver! Surely you can notice the difference, hey?
Sure, just keep deluding yourself. Eventually you will turn out just like me.
Nope, you are right on track.