I like the idea of Multiclassing feats. I like the idea of using feats to make up some of the losses that come from multiclassing, but the losses are there for a reason. So I am thinking about a group of feats that give you a very limited subset of abilities from another class.
For example, a multiclassing talent.
Sneak attack focus: Requires sneak attack class feature. You level is considered the be 1 level higher for purposes of sneak attack damage. Your level with this feat may not exceed your character level.
Learned caster: Requires a class that can cast spells. You gain access to spells as if your level in one chosen caster class was one higher, but your caster level does not increase. Your caster level cannot exceed your character level.
Focused caster: Requires a class that can cast spells. Your caster level is considered one higher. Your caster level cannot exceed your character level.
Wildshape focus: Requires wildshape class feature. You character is considered 1 level higher for purposes of the wild shape ability. You wild shape level cannot exceed your character level.
Warrior focus: Requires you to have levels in a class that gets +1 BAB/level. You gain +1 BAB. You BAB cannot exceed your character level.
The feats are meant to be limited so that you can do a little multiclassing without hosing your self completely. The idea is that with around 3 feats I can make up almost everything I lose from a single level of multiclassing.
For example a Sorcerer takes a level in fighter, they could take Learned Caster, and Focused caster to regain the lost caster level. There could also be a feat that lets them regain their lost bloodline progression.
Thoughts?
I like it. That means somebody else doesn't! XD
Seriously, some options like this would be great for multiclassers. Hopefully there will be some things like this in the next Player's guide. It would take a little of the sting out of it.
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These seem ever so slightly too weak. I'd say that wildshape focus and sneak attack focus should increase your level by 2 (same limit) and have warrior focus give you +1 or 2 HP too (without limit).
Also, consider that something similar to focused caster has been made before (for D&D 3.5), and it was a +4 to caster level (for one of your casting classes).
Overall I think it'd be interesting to classify class abilities to major/moderate/minor and one feat can accomplish the following:
Major: Effective Level + 2
Moderate: Effective Level + 3
Minor: Effective Level + 4
Then have the casting/warrior focus as above.
Sneak attack, wild shape, discoveries, hexes, domains, etc would be "major." Smite evil, monk speed increases, jack of all trades, bardic performance might be moderate. Monk unarmed strike damage, monk AC, armor training and trap sense might be minor.
I'd probably count bloodline (with all benefits) as major.
Spellcasting (with all benefits) should be 1 feat for 1 level trade at best.
</end-long-critique>
The best test would likely be to create two characters with the same class level layout and see what you can do with and without these feats. I'll have to give that a try when I get time...
<leaves for classes... stupid college>
I was avoiding HP feats because of the toughness feat. If they want to make up lost HP, they can take that.
I was originally thinking +2, but with spell casting, I am thinking that 2 feats to gain 1 level of casting is balanced.
I am also thinking about a restriction where you can only take a feat once for every 3 levels of a class you have. IE if I take a feat that boosts wild shape by +2, you can only take it once for every 3 levels of druid you have.
Testing with Mystic Theurge with 2 feats to increase your caster level by 1.
Level 10 - Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 4. You spend 4 feats(2 for Wizard, and 2 for cleric) and you cast spells like a level 8 Wizard and a level 8 Cleric.
Level 20 - Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10. You spend 6 feats, and you cast spells like a level 19 Wizard, and a level 14 cleric.
or
Level 20 - Cleric 7/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10. Same as before but, 19 cleric and 14 wizard.
The old Practised Spellcaster feat raised caster level by 4 to a max of HD. Was that too much?
The old Practised Spellcaster feat raised caster level by 4 to a max of HD. Was that too much?
Practiced spellcaster was caster level only, not spells/day. He's talking about giving a feat to increase spells per day as well. It's basically like taking a free level of wizard without the school bonuses.
The old Practised Spellcaster feat raised caster level by 4 to a max of HD. Was that too much?
I would say yes. In some situations, gaining 4 caster levels was pretty OP, but because there was no way to increase spell selection, those cases were highly situational. If you add in a feat that lets you increase your spell selection, then something like pratised caster is probably way too powerful.
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Caster level doesn't increase that much, considering it was maxed at character level it just let (some) spells keep up with what is required to keep them useful. I would (at worse) reduce it to +2, but I'd probably keep it in the 3 or 4 range.
My suggestion is to create a multiclass character one level at a time, and see whether or not the feats seem attractive to the build.
For example, say I'm a 1st level wizard, 1st level fighter (total 2nd level) and I gain a new level and decide that it's wizard.
Do you
A)
Increase your caster level by 1 {Focused Caster}
B)
Increase your AC by 1 {Dodge}
C)
Increase your lacking reflex save by 2 {Lightning Reflexes}
D)
Increase your HP (at 20 with the new level) by 3, with more to come {Toughness}
With the above scenario, where caster level is at its highest premium (low levels) I still fail to see myself more than somewhat consider option A, and at high levels (where the feats start to get more powerful) I find it even less attractive.
Personally, depending on the dex I managed to get, I'd either go with B (okay dex), C (low dex) or D (decent dex, the first two not much of a problem)
Now, this example isn't necessarily that good, but I recommend having your players (assuming you're a GM) make characters whilst mentioning the availability of these feats. If they tend to use them, but the characters still play rather in-line then they are likely fine. If they shy away from them (despite being their intended audience) then they are likely too weak.
One final example:
You try to build a character with decent BAB but capable of casting 9th level spells.
Accomplish via Prestige Class:
Wizard 8, Fighter 2, Eldritch Knight 10
BAB +16, 9th level spells (CL17)
3 Combat Feats, 1 Wizard Feat, 10 General
Accomplish via Feats:
Wizard 12, Fighter 8
BAB +14, 9th level spells (CL17)
5 Combat Feats, 2 Wizard Feats, 0 General (Spent 5 on higher spells/day, 5 on higher CL)
This lists the feats left after you spend what is necessary to accomplish the task.
Note that the prestige class is capable of doing this whilst leaving the character with 10 general feats open and with 2 higher BAB. Since the first option loses some wizard abilities (1 feat and an 8th level ability) and some armor training/weapon mastery, I figure the net balance is that the second one is about 2-3 feats behind (not the full 7). This isn't that far off, but it's still off. Increasing the +caster level feat to +3 would negate this and make them fairly even, though still behind 2 BAB.
PS: Hopefully I'm not coming off as overly critical here, I'm just trying to make sure you analyze the balance of the feats using examples rather than guesses.
Caster level doesn't increase that much, considering it was maxed at character level it just let (some) spells keep up with what is required to keep them useful. I would (at worse) reduce it to +2, but I'd probably keep it in the 3 or 4 range.
My suggestion is to create a multiclass character one level at a time, and see whether or not the feats seem attractive to the build.
For example, say I'm a 1st level wizard, 1st level fighter (total 2nd level) and I gain a new level and decide that it's wizard.
Do you
A)
Increase your caster level by 1 {Focused Caster}
B)
Increase your AC by 1 {Dodge}
C)
Increase your lacking reflex save by 2 {Lightning Reflexes}
D)
Increase your HP (at 20 with the new level) by 3, with more to come {Toughness}With the above scenario, where caster level is at its highest premium (low levels) I still fail to see myself more than somewhat consider option A, and at high levels (where the feats start to get more powerful) I find it even less attractive.
Personally, depending on the dex I managed to get, I'd either go with B (okay dex), C (low dex) or D (decent dex, the first two not much of a problem)Now, this example isn't necessarily that good, but I recommend having your players (assuming you're a GM) make characters whilst mentioning the availability of these feats. If they tend to use them, but the characters still play rather in-line then they are likely fine. If they shy away from them (despite being their intended audience) then they are likely too weak.
One final example:
You try to build a character with decent BAB but capable of casting 9th level spells.Accomplish via Prestige Class:
Wizard 8, Fighter 2, Eldritch Knight 10
BAB +16, 9th level spells (CL17)
3 Combat Feats, 1 Wizard Feat, 10 GeneralAccomplish via Feats:
Wizard 12, Fighter 8
BAB +14, 9th level spells (CL17)
5 Combat Feats, 2 Wizard Feats, 0 General (Spent 5 on higher spells/day, 5 on higher CL)This lists the feats left after you spend what is necessary to...
The problem is not there. The problem is when you take these feats on top of a PrC like Eldritch Knight.
Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10
1 feat improving BAB, 2 feats improving CL, 2 feats improving spells/day
BAB +17, CL 20 with the spell/day of a level 20 wizard, 5 general feats, 4 combat feats, 1 caster feat free.
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Wiz 6, Fighter 4, Eldritch Knight 10
BAB +17, 9th Level spells (CL20)
4 Combat Feats, 1 Wizard Feat, 0 General...
Yeah.. I still think that falls behind EITHER of the other two builds. The extra 3 caster levels, 1 fighter feat and 1 BAB doesn't make up for 10(!) general feats.
There's a reason I just didn't bother with this one.
For the one you gave, is 5 general feats a good cost for 2 points higher CL and 1 BAB? That's all you get. I'd much rather get other feats.
Wiz 6, Fighter 4, Eldritch Knight 10
BAB +17, 9th Level spells (CL20)
4 Combat Feats, 1 Wizard Feat, 0 General...
Yeah.. I still think that falls behind EITHER of the other two builds. The extra 3 caster levels, 1 fighter feat and 1 BAB doesn't make up for 10(!) general feats.
There's a reason I just didn't bother with this one.For the one you gave, is 5 general feats a good cost for 2 points higher CL and 1 BAB? That's all you get. I'd much rather get other feats.
If the decision is a hard one to make, then the feats are probably balanced. The point is that you probably shouldn't spend that many feats, but imagine if a druid could take 2 levels of fighter while keeping wildshape at their character level.
Druid 8/fighter 2
1 feat for a +1 BAB, 2 feats to improve wildshape, 2 general feats left, 2 fighter bonus feats left. You can wildshape as a level 10 druid, caster as a level 8 druid with a +9 BAB, and you can now pick up feats like weapon spec(claw or bite)
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Actually, in that example you could not take weapon spec because it requires 4 levels of fighter.
My point is partly that in order to utilize these feats at all you have to multiclass and lose the mid and high level abilities you can only get by staying one class.
Also, I wasn't arguing the BAB feat (other than *maybe* a +1 HP bonus), and I'll admit that wild shape is an unusual one in that it increases in power and versatility quite rapidly, then suddenly drops off in increased effectiveness. Most abilities of this kind slowly ramp in power and I forgot to take this into account with my original "major/medium/minor" categorization suggestion.
The "caster level increase" was all I wished to argue. Without this a multi-class character with casting would be unlikely to use their spells against opponents without a "gish" prestige class or heavy emphasis of their casting class due to the spell resistance and other resistances of opponents at high level and the multiple failure point nature of spellcasting (can fail at concentration, spell resistance, and attack roll/saving throw, and resistance to elements and other damage). Melee (ie the +1 BAB) can only fail at one stage and is thus more useful. On average, for casting, there are about 2 failure points.
This means that if you have a 70% chance of succeeding at one check, you only have a 49% chance to succeed at two. A +1 to the first increases it to 75%, to the second it increases it to 56%. If the chance was initially 30% it isn't as optimal. The two-check is a chance of 9%, upped to 12.25% with a + 1 (a total of +3.25 instead of the normal 5).
Since you are multi-classing with your CL (and those checks are designed for 50/50 for a single-classing character) you will end up on the bad end of that deal more often than not.
Obviously the above is a bit of an oversimplificaton. For the case of resistances you go from incapable of succeeding to overcoming just fine in a matter of a couple of caster levels, but for SR and concentration this is a decently fair example.
Maybe I'm overstating the issue, and it definitely is more of an issue at high levels (where SR, quick enemies and resistances tend to coexist in almost everything) than it is at low (where these things are rare), but I want to emphasize that CL and BAB and other things are NOT equal and that each is affected in very different ways when increased or decreased slightly. In the case of CL being low it is very sensitive, but being high it is much less sensitive. Since these feats are innately capped at "equal to normal" I feel they should accomplish more in this category.
Either way, at this point I'm done arguing 'cause I have better things to be doing. I was considering starting a "multi-class testing" campaign this weekend, maybe I'll bring up these feats with my players and see what they think.
The caster level feat would probably be okay at +2 CL per feat. That way gaining 2 full caster levels would cost 3 feats. 1 for the CL increase, 2 for the spells/day increase.