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I think over time our attitudes towards torture has shifted over time. I think that people have become more accepting of it. I remember in a game I was DMing in 2000 I seem to remember I was DMing the forge of fury, and the party needed to find some stone tablets with metallurgical formulas written on them. The party had to get some information from a dugar prisoner. One of the players wanted to torture the information out of the Duagar. Luckily before I needed to say anything, other party members stopped this from happening.
In resent years, granted this is a different game and different players, I have found people more accepting of torture being applied to extract information. Some players have been willing to have their characters beat information from a prisoner. This used to be something only villains did. “And now your highness we shall discuss the location of the hidden rebel base.” So far other Players have had their PCs beat a prisoner with their fists and if any sharp objects are going to be used, the Dm “fades the scene” and asks for some intimidate rolls. Thank you Jack Baur and 24. I do like the show however.
Getting information out of someone weather they are a suspect or a prisoner is entirely beyond my experience. I have always thought that, if you want to find out what someone knows you have to find some way of relating to the person you want information from. And that someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, just to make the torture stop. Perhaps I am wrong about his. But I don’t think so.
Anyways what do you all think? Have we in general become more accepting of torture?
do we notice it appearing more in our games?
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Torture is for neutral on the good-evil axis at best, most likely evil.
Also, I'd roll a % chance that the person just tells you what you want to hear to get you to stop, or even lead you into a trap. I do not have a such a chance on diplomacy.
Torture is not something I've seen used in my games, though I have actually seen redemption of villains before. A fighter had diplomacy as one of his two skills.. go figure.
Why would you physically torture someone when Charm Person is a 1st level spell? And with the amount of divination magic in the game. Now that's EVIL!
I have never seen torture used in a fantasy game like dnd, like robert says divination magic is too readily available.
On the other hand, in a d20 modern game that had the party facing off against a corrupted US government, torture was not unheard of, and one scene in particular made us a little concerned about one of our group members in the frightening creativity of his methods.
It pretty much depends on the characters in question. I haven't encountered torture in 3.5 much, if at all. Not once in PF yet. Interrogation with threats and maybe a punch? Yes. Actual torture? Not so much.
I did however play a really ruthless outlaw in Warhammer. One of his nastiest moments was when the group ran into some people which he thought needed to be slowed down, I don't remember the specifics but he slit their achilles tendons so that they wouldn't get out from the underground tunnels they were in easily or at all. Not an interrogation/prisoner moment though.
Same character later became an overly devout witch hunter... so yeah. Still just as ruthless to his enemies, but backed by Sigmar and the law.
But in 3.5/PF there're so many other non-violent options to take, including intimidate.
As to if its more common now than before, I have a hard time giving anything other than anecdotal evidence, but I don't see this has having become more likely. I mean, growing up my friends and I were pretty used to seeing Batman beat the crap out of criminals on a regular basis.
That's probably all I'm going to contribute though.
Before he moved out of state, there was a player in our group that considered torture the first option. His argument was, since there was torture in medieval times, it's OK in this setting. Since our group was more than capable of using other means to get info (Detect Thoughts, Sense Motive, Detect lies, etc.), we felt that humoring him and his obvious desire to bully, abuse and torture people (real or pretend) that were not able to defend themselves, was unacceptable.
I personally do not condone torture, in game or out, so I would probably not be inclined to use that method of info gathering even as a last resort.
<tongue in cheek>
I believe you are supposed to first define your captives as Terrorists or Enemy combatants. Then you take the feat "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". Then it becomes a LG act, supported by every cleric & paladin in the land.
</tongue in cheek>
<tongue in cheek>
I believe you are supposed to first define your captives as Terrorists or Enemy combatants. Then you take the feat "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". Then it becomes a LG act, supported by every cleric & paladin in the land.
</tongue in cheek>
LOL - brilliant.
Actually in my Pathfinder game I have instituted alignment infraction points (as per HackMaster) but simplified. I give 1-10 infraction points for various acts whether Good, Evil, Chaotic or Evil using a system I've derived from Buddhist ethics. If someone plays to their alignment they don't get points. If someone plays against alignment and accumlate 10 or more points they start slipping over - so a Lawful Good who commits 10 or more points of Evil acts become Lawful Neutra. 10 more points and they become Lawful Evil. Infraction points can then be taken away by an Atonement spell or by committing acts that swing the character back to their stated alignment (not so easy to do actually).
Anyway, Torture is definately on my list as a major Evil (and perhaps Chaotic) act that will get you anywhere from 2 (for a little roughhousing) all the way up to 14 points. It's a fast way to becoming an Evil character.
Now I recently read an old book about the SAS (Special Air Service) and their secret war in SE Asia during the 60s. This book was written in the 70's. There was a whole passage where they explained (and it was a very right wing book) that torture was not only uncivilized but not productive and even counterproductive. The author (a former SAS soldlier) was extremely dismissive and even contemptuous of anyone resorting to torture.
In my game, I assume that even though its kind of a medieval setting that the elves (Chaotic Good) and the dwarves (Lawful Good) and the actual felt presence of divine beings of Good have influenced the more civilized "good guy" civilizations to be much more respectful of civil rights, human rights, and equality than our own medieval civilizations. Elizabeth Moore seems to have made the same point in her excellent book about a paladin "The Deeds of Paksennarion."
So while I have had people in my game restort to torture, the killing of helpless captives, and even cannibalism (it's a rough game) - they have always payed for it with alignment infraction points.
Actually in my Pathfinder game I have instituted alignment infraction points (as per HackMaster) but simplified. I give 1-10 infraction points for various acts whether Good, Evil, Chaotic or Evil using a system I've derived from Buddhist ethics.
But can they get both points for being Chaotic (unlawful act) AS WELL AS Evil (causing pain and suffering to own end)?
<tongue in cheek>
I believe you are supposed to first define your captives as Terrorists or Enemy combatants. Then you take the feat "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". Then it becomes a LG act, supported by every cleric & paladin in the land.
</tongue in cheek>
This is actually a perfect setup for a "Paladin Test" in my mind. Put the paladin in a situation where he is officially endorsed in torture and has a damn good reason to do it. Don't trick the player into it, but give him a reason to voluntarily lose his powers.
Good organizations acting evil out of righteousness is so... classic.
Funny. We have been using extreme methods for extracting information since "Keep on the Borderlands"...
Indeed, I think I've seen fewer violent interrogations in 3.X D&D than in previous editions since there's now a relatively non-violent substitute -- the Intimidate skill.
I think it really depends on what you consider torture. Does intensly intimidating interrogation count? How about sleep deprevation? Sticking the light-sensitive drow in an area of very bright light?
For what it's worth, I haven't seen any increase in violent torture. Rather, I've seen a decrease since my high school days 20 years ago and recent events both in real life and in TV shows haven't really changed that trend.
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I have found that it occurs irregularly in my group, and usually it is younger player who engage in it. By younger I mean middle school and high school aged kids. It may have to do with the culture, but I also think it's an age thing as well. I have noticed that as I have gotten older it takes more to get me to throw a punch under any circumstances then it did when I was that age.
I have found that it occurs irregularly in my group, and usually it is younger player who engage in it. By younger I mean middle school and high school aged kids.
Good point; that may be why I'm seeing less violent interrogation in games nowadays.
Interesting tread, I've been in situations as a DM when 'bullying' the goblin prisoner for information was turning into 'torturing the goblin', and I'm not very comfortable with that. Usually, the goblin start spitting out 'information', most of which he makes up only to satisfy his jailers...
Still, nothing horrifies me more than the kill-the-prisoner-then-Speak with Dead combo...
I'm heartened about the responses so far. I started reading this thread with the dread expectation of "it works for us in real life, so why is it wrong in my fantasy game?".
I agree that the obtained information has nothing to do with the truth, and everything to do with stopping the pain. Torturees have a reason to conceal the truth (otherwise why let things get this far?), so the information should be false to some important degree, maybe a half-truth at best.
Yes, there are some acts that can get you infraction points for being both Chaotic and Evil - but some of these are relative. This also works with Law and Good (or Law and Evil/Chaos and Good).
So for instance, in a Lawful Evil culture one might be obliged to kill, torture or exploit people and these acts would be approved by that culture and even legal (depending on who is doing it too) so these acts would be Lawful but they would also still be Evil.
Here is my system as it stands at present (and I fully admit this is list shows my own biases and subjectivity):
Alignment Infraction System
I will be using points to track when characters drift away from their stated alignments. So for instance:
Characters who declare Law as their alignment will not get points for doing Lawful acts, they are expected to. Though if they have drifted into Chaos and earned Chaos points, truly Lawful acts that inconvenience or even endanger their characters will earn points that will erase the Chaos points. But they can never have a positive balance of just Lawful points. The same goes for Chaotics, but in reverse, and likewise for those declaring Good or Evil alignments.
Points will never be awarded for Neutral acts however.
Minor, Serious or Major acts of Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos will earn:
Minor Points – 1-4
Serious – 5-8
Major – 8-12 or more!
Once you get 10 points of drift you will change over to the next alignment over in that direction. So if you are Neutral Good and get 10 Evil points, you will be switched to true Neutral. If you get 10 more Evil points you will be switched to Neutral Evil.
A character can voluntarily, upon changing levels, simply shift over to whatever alignment they are drifting towards – and the points will then go away. So in the above example, the Neutral Good could just declare true Neutrality upon changing levels and the Evil points will go away.
Here are how I am thinking of rating various acts – if I don’t specific minor, serious, or major it means I haven’t decided or that it would be very circumstantial:
Killing and Harming sentient beings – this pertains to self-aware, rational beings.
Murder – almost always a Major Evil act, may be Lawful or Chaotic depending. (10 points, Cold Blooded Murder 12 points, Murder for Pleasure 14 points)
Capital Punishment – may be a Minor Lawful act, but not a Good one.
Saving a Life – major Good esp. if it entails some risk to oneself
Healing – at least minor Good may be more if at cost to oneself
Self-Defense – Neutral act
Defense of Others – Good act
Vigilantism – Chaotic act, may be Evil as well
War of Aggression – may be Lawful if pretext found, but usually Chaotic and a major Evil
Just War – minor Lawful, may be minor Good at best
Suicide – may be minor Lawful, may be major Chaotic depending on local culture, usually major Evil.
Abortion – may be Lawful, may be Chaotic, depending on local laws and culture, never a Good act. Forced abortions are definitely major Evil. Some late term abortions may be tantamount to infanticide which is definitely a major Evil act, though may be Lawful in some Lawful Evil societies.
Infanticide – major Evil
Ritual Sacrifice of a Sentient Being – major Evil
Assault – Evil act, usually Chaotic
(Causing gratuitous injury 6 points)
Torture – major Evil act, but may be Lawful or Chaotic.
(According to Book of Vile Darkness:
Intimidating 2 points,
Painful or Cruel 8 points
Excruciating 10 points
Sadistic 12 points
Indescribable 14 points)
Taking What is Not Given
Stealing – almost always a major Chaotic act, may be Evil if it actively harms another physically or emotionally. (Stealing from Needy 4 points Evil)
Charity – Good act, may be Lawful or Chaotic depending (4 points Good)
Exploiting – may be Lawful, but definitely serious or major Evil.
Freeing Slaves – major Good, major Chaotic
Enslaving – major Evil, may be Chaotic or Lawful depending
Robbing the Rich to Give to the Poor – still major Chaotic, but may be Good.
Stealing Back what was Stolen – usually minor Chaotic, could be Good
Confiscation – usually Lawful, may be Evil or Good depending
Sexuality
Rape – usually major Chaotic and always major Evil
Exploitation - may be Lawful and always major Evil
Homosexuality – may be viewed as minor Lawful or minor Chaotic depending on society but in and of itself is not of any alignment.
Prostitution – may be Lawful or Chaotic, if exploitation it is major Evil
Pornography – may be viewed Lawful or Chaotic, if exploitation it is major Evil
Minors – may be Lawful or Chaotic, always major Evil
Marriage – major Lawful not necessarily Good could be Evil (if forced)
Promiscuity – Chaotic
Adultery – Chaotic, and may be Evil depending on circumstances (note that what constitutes adultery may be cultural – here it means being unfaithful)
Irresponsible in re to disease and pregnancy – Chaotic and possibly Evil
Responsible in re to disease and pregnancy – Lawful and possibly Good
Matchmaking – may be Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic depending
Saving/Healing Relationship – Good act, may be Lawful as well
Divorce – determined by motive, rarely Good, but may not always be Evil, could be Lawful or Chaotic depending on laws, culture, and circumstances
Subverting Relationship – Chaotic and usually Evil
Sexual Harrasment – Minor Evil, may even be serious or major depending on circumstances.
Speech
Lying – almost always a Chaotic act, but may be Evil if the lie is truly harmful or may be Good if it is to protect life. (White Lie 1 Chaotic)
Slander – almost always Evil, may even be Chaotic (4 points)
Abuse – may be a minor Evil act, or even a Chaotic one in some circumstances (2 points Evil)
Gossip and other Irresponsible Speech –could be minor Evil or minor Chaotic (1 point)
Giving in to Greed – may lead to Evil or Chaotic acts (1 points)
Giving in to Hatred – may lead to Evil or Chaotic acts (1 points)
False Views – never Good, but could be Lawful, Chaotic, or even Evil if views are known to be false and one adheres to them or propagates them anyway - depends greatly on law, culture and circumstance
Advocating an alignment (2 points towards that alignment)
Imposing or Reinforcing Authority and/or Discipline: Lawful (4 points Lawful)
Subverting or Rebelling against Authority and/or Discipline: Chaotic (4 points Chaotic)
Obeying Local Laws: Lawful act if it is inconvenient to do so but one obeys anyway. In other words one is going out of one’s way to adhere to the law. (2 points Lawful)
Disobeying Local Laws: Chaotic act if to do so would be inconvenient and/or self-destructive. In other words one is going out of one’s way to flout the law. (2 points Chaotic)
Using an aligned spell (2 points towards that alignment)
Desecrating a church or temple (4 points Evil)
Consecrating a church or temple (4 points Good)
Betraying a friend or ally for personal gain (4 points Evil)
Perverting Justice for Personal Gain (6 points Evil)
Some Exceptions to the System
Lying in order to protect a cover identity depends greatly on the motives for doing so. If it is for survival of oneself or one’s group then it is a Neutral act – kind of like self-defense. If it is for the purposes of subversion it is a Chaotic act. If it is to get close to someone in order to betray them then it is also an Evil act. If it is in the service of a principle or organization as for instance a spy or undercover policemen then it is not really a Lawful act but is not inconsistent with a Lawful alignment.
My player's characters never torture. They use Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.
What? It's for the greater good.
Indeed, I think I've seen fewer violent interrogations in 3.X D&D than in previous editions since there's now a relatively non-violent substitute -- the Intimidate skill.
On that line, I do wonder a bit about that!
What activity, exactly, is being 'reflected' in that roll? I think we are seeing a bit of whitewashing going on when it comes to information extraction via intimidate...
Considering its charisma based, I doubt it has to be anything sinister:
"It would be in your best interest to answer our questions. We don't like being lied to."
"Talk . . . now."
"You've seen what my friends and I can do. We shouldn't have to ask you again."
"We are very important people. You could be doing yourself a great disservice by ignoring our pleas."
I had a fighter that used his Intimidate score to interact with nearly everyone he ran into. It was never a matter of threatening to kill anyone or breaking any bones. He just glowered and yelled a lot.
"All of you, quiet, now!"
Still, all those things are still implied threats of physical and emotional harm, which at the end of the day are only effective if the target believes you can and will deliver on them.
On that note, Water Boarding is a harmless technique, as is making the interviewee undergo 'stress positions'(which REALLY REALLY hurt), so is 'you have a nice family, be a shame if something happened'... None of these are 'good' acts though, they are a means to an ends.
n that note, I wasn't wild on the de-linking of Intimidate from the Str stat for those reasons... frankly I wouldn't be taking a backward step from Wayne Newton regardless of how much he sneered and tried to be menacing - Hulk Hogan would have me thinking REALLY carefully however :p
Heh, in both cases you will see an over representation of torture and nasty deeds.
Teenagers, as they are taking their cues from popular media, and haven't yet grasped the wisdom to see the bigger picture.
The Evil party is the Evil party, they take their cues from Reservoir Dogs :p
I've rarely seen torture used by PCs in my games. Once the party hits 5th level, Speak with Dead is much more effective so there is no incentive to take prisoners for questioning.
Before 5th level, Diplomacy and especially Intimidate work fine.
I've rarely seen torture used by PCs in my games. Once the party hits 5th level, Speak with Dead is much more effective so there is no incentive to take prisoners for questioning.
Nothing to say the creature will be any more co-operative in death than it was in life. Speak with Dead doesn't come with a lie detector, and they can be misleading, repetitive or otherwise jerk you around, and thats if they FAIL their saving throw.
What activity, exactly, is being 'reflected' in that roll? I think we are seeing a bit of whitewashing going on when it comes to information extraction via intimidate...
+1
"Intimidate" doesn't mean "treat kindly."
Reminds me of the Firefly premier. I paraphrase . . .
MAL: "Just scare him."
JAYNE: "Pain is scary."
I have a player who intimidates everything, and I mean 'everything'. More then half of it are on joke though but he did roll for intimidating a door to open.
... granted, it was a talking door. But still! :P
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The only time a 24-watching player in my Freeport game got into waterboarding an evil cleric of the Unspeakable One to try and get her to give information, she used her Death and Destruction domain powers to deathtouch herself to get out of being tortured.
Another player pointed out that she might provoke attacks of opportunity by using her ability, and I invited him to please go ahead and help her commit suicide. :)
Torture is practically useless as a means of gathering information, and was used by the VCs to get US soldiers to 'confess' to committing all sorts of war crimes for propoganda purposes, with full knowledge that the 'confessions' were bogus. I see no reason to reward players who watch too much Fox and refuse to accept that it doesn't work by making it an effective tool for interrogation.
The less my game involves real-world politics, the happier we all are. No torture. No abortions. No flying dominated wyverns laden-down with alchemical fire into castles. We game to get away from the less pleasant crap that fills the real world, and spend some quality time in a world where that sort of nonsense doesn't happen, since we're too busy fighting dragons and rescuing princesses (or vice-versa, depending on our alignments).
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<tongue in cheek>
I believe you are supposed to first define your captives as Terrorists or Enemy combatants. Then you take the feat "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". Then it becomes a LG act, supported by every cleric & paladin in the land.
</tongue in cheek>
This is actually a perfect setup for a "Paladin Test" in my mind. Put the paladin in a situation where he is officially endorsed in torture and has a damn good reason to do it. Don't trick the player into it, but give him a reason to voluntarily lose his powers.
Good organizations acting evil out of righteousness is so... classic.
If a paladin is officially allowed to torture i see no reason to yank his powers. Of course i may have a different sense of good vs. evil, but meh. I would also have no problem with a paladin played as a judge dredd style judge, jury, executioner type character so you may have to take what i say w/ a grain of salt.
Torture is unreliable at best.
Only if you're not doing it for fun.
This reminds me of a funny story (well, I cannot help but be amused when I remember it, so it must be funny):
We had a campaign once run by Mr. Against. I call him Mr. Against because the actual name doesn't matter and because being against was his super power. Doesn't matter what it was. If the party was mostly heroic, he played the CN (actually CE with Chaotic and Evil tendencies but the GM didn't want intra-group fighting and let him stay at CN). If they were all law-abiding, he wanted to loot the beloved hero's relics. He was like this in real life, too, by the way. He was even against himself (his whole outlook and general alignment in respect to many things just didn't fit together).
As a GM, he had really weird ideas: GM Fiats to rescue his story when huge plot holes appeared, terrible railroading and not only "GM-cheating" to keep characters alive but be absolutely blunt and transparent with it.
The group was evil. Wasn't the original intention, but we quickly found out that we had the rare opportunity to just do whatever we wanted, being practically immortal and all (we managed to go on an all-out killing spree in frickin' Waterdeep for dozens of rounds and survive!)
So the first fun part came when I wanted to trade characters. My original character wasn't really evil, but he was a human-hating wood elf who wanted to keep his ancestral forest save from humans and their gluttonous axes. When the general alignment moved firmly into Evil with a capital E territory, I felt the character was actually too good to be in that party and was exchanged.
We even had an IRC one-on-one excursion to play out the initiation of my character into the Eldreth Veluuthra, an evil organisation of human-hating elves. He was to kill a group of lumberjacks to send a message to the humans (i.e. come here and die). He did it. The final message was that "a couple weeks after your first mission, you come upon a small human village in the woods. It is filled with dead woman and children." (Me. HUH?) "Those are the wives and kids of those lumberjacks you killed, and they starved to death" (Me. WTF?? They didn't go back home? They didn't just collect berries? What sort of degenerate tribe of humans was that that their female or non-adult parts were completely helpless in life??)
Anyway, my next character was Evil with a capital E (and I think the other three letters could also be capitalised). He loved torture, both as a way to get information he wanted without having to bribe someone, and for the sheer recreational value a session of making some helpless sentient beings cry out in unbearable agony.
I got all the fun stuff from the Book of Vile Darkness (the Monte classic, not the in-game item), installed in a portable hole so I would never be without my iron maiden or my rack! Whenever I wanted to describe anything about the torture, the guy very quickly cut me off and said "OK OK I DON'T NEED DETAILS YOU GET YOUR INFO WE MAY PLAY AN EVIL GAME BUT WE CAN STILL BE CLASSY" (from a guy whose last character shot down little kids with magic missiles because they stole from him...)
At first, I only wanted to tell him what item I was going to use so he could look up the Intimidate and Bluff modifiers if he wanted to (you get a bonus to Intimidate for using those torture implements, but if the guy resists, he can bluff you to make you think he broke and feed you false info, and the tools gave them bonuses for that, too), but when I found out that he didn't want me to talk about torture, I'd always start explaining what I'd be using and how just to have him start shouting. :D
I didn't read the entire thread so I apologize if this has been said.
I noticed that alot of you are say that this is an evil AND chaotic act,
most games are set in a medieval time so things like torture aren't always chaotic, like slavery it should depend on the region the torturer is from, if the laws of his land have no problems with torture then there is no reason to change to that persons alignment to chaotic. What alot of you are doing is letting your own morals leak into the game world you have to understand that even a paladin from the right region can own slaves so I see no reason why a player would have to shift that part of his alignment if he comes from a region were torture isn't illegal, evil yes but not necessarily illegal.
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I actually do, because while Dredd may not be evil, Good is a very very small part of his makeup compared to Law. (admittedly though more than most of the other Judges save perhaps, Hershey) Dredd is no paladin in my book, not even close. Although if that's the way you usually run your Paladins, I can see why Khelben Arunsun finds a group of them to be so frightening a concept.
I would also have no problem with a paladin played as a judge dredd style judge, jury, executioner type character so you may have to take what i say w/ a grain of salt.
Who is this Khelben Arunsun and why is he scared of me?
We've been having fun with this interplay lately, with the clear understanding that torture = evil in our campaign. Nevertheless, houstonderek's rogue thinks he's Jack Baur, and can't wait to capture and torture everyone he meets. On the flip side, Silverhair's cleric stanuchly defends the captives with his glaive (if they're non-threatening), or kills them cleanly with a shot to the head before HD can get to them (if he must)... or occasionally actively assists HD (if he's possessed by his cursed relic tooth). Jess Door's fighter (LN if anything) curses HD for wasting time, and equally curses Silverhair for either coddling or killing "useful" captives.
Yes, I think the general use of torture in games I've played in is on the rise.
I'm running an admittedly pirate/crime intensive game right now (Second Darkness + Freeport) and the PCs have started to get a reputation for grabbing people and dragging them to the animal cages under the Gold Goblin and then inflicting various levels of pain and murder on them.
How to handle this? Well, I've definitely shifted at least one character's alignment. But you don't get any benefit, per se, from being good so that's not really a punishment, just a clarification.
I've been trying to show the effects of this behavior through the actions of others. People they want to talk to just normally are terrified out of their minds - this can provide limited helpfulness, but there's a difference between immediate rolling over and the more long term active help people provide if they like you. And it escalates NPC actions - they caught this one assassin and the party halfling really worked her over with a hot dagger, but then she escaped. He's really scared now, as well he might be.