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What would be the penalty for dual wielding say two revolvers? Would it be -2? -4? None?
Doesn't state them as a light or any size category in the Campaign Setting book but common sense tells me light. Is this states somewhere else?
And for that matter what about two hand crossbows? Sure you need both hands to reload but what about the actual FIRING of them?
And for that matter what about two hand crossbows? Sure you need both hands to reload but what about the actual FIRING of them?
Hand crossbows are light, IIRC.
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Pistols are light weapons (I think it is mentioned in the entry somewhere).
They work a bit like crossbows, with the exception that they do not incur -2 penalty to shoot with one hand (i.e. pistols are MEANT to be fired with one hand, while crossbows are meant to be fired with two hands).
So if you shoot a pistol with your right or left hand, no penalty.
If you shoot two pistols with two-weapon fighting feat: -2/-2 (thus, with two 5-shooters, you have five rounds of firing two shots per round, then you need to duck behind a boulder and do some reloading... or draw additional loaded pistols! LOL! :) )
Cheers!
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Doesn't state them as a light or any size category in the Campaign Setting book but common sense tells me light. Is this states somewhere else?
It's not in the CS, because no ranged weapon is categorized by light/one-hand/two-hand. But the CS does mention that a gun requires either one hand or two to wield, and by comparing the weight of the lightest guns with the weights of other Light weapons, I think we have to come to the conclusion that there are no Light firearms.
The only core Light weapon that is more than 3 pounds is the light mace at 4 pounds. This does open the door for a pistol to be Light, but I would lean toward no because a mace's functionality is dependent on its weight, which is distributed across 2 or so feet of metal. A pistol, not so much.
And for that matter what about two hand crossbows? Sure you need both hands to reload but what about the actual FIRING of them?
In the description of the hand crossbow it says they're treated as Light when firing one in each hand. (I'd also point out that the hand crossbow is half the weight of a pistol.)
EDIT: And just to be perfectly clear, only the pistol could be considered light (even though I think it is not); at 5 pounds, the blunderbuss and the revolver are clearly one-handed.
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Doesn't state them as a light or any size category in the Campaign Setting book but common sense tells me light. Is this states somewhere else?It's not in the CS, because no ranged weapon is categorized by light/one-hand/two-hand. But the CS does mention that a gun requires either one hand or two to wield, and by comparing the weight of the lightest guns with the weights of other Light weapons, I think we have to come to the conclusion that there are no Light firearms.
The only core Light weapon that is more than 3 pounds is the light mace at 4 pounds. This does open the door for a pistol to be Light, but I would lean toward no because a mace's functionality is dependent on its weight, which is distributed across 2 or so feet of metal. A pistol, not so much.
And for that matter what about two hand crossbows? Sure you need both hands to reload but what about the actual FIRING of them?In the description of the hand crossbow it says they're treated as Light when firing one in each hand. (I'd also point out that the hand crossbow is half the weight of a pistol.)
EDIT: And just to be perfectly clear, only the pistol could be considered light (even though I think it is not); at 5 pounds, the blunderbuss and the revolver are clearly one-handed.
But there's no rule confirming this one way or another is there? After all you still are just SHOOTING them and not actually swinging them (the revolver that is) so then even with the weight, there's no REAL rule stating which?
I was hoping I had missed something T_T
Edit: I always thought the weapon light for two weapon fighting based off its size. Doesn't look that big.
What would be the penalty for dual wielding say two revolvers? Would it be -2? -4? None?
Doesn't state them as a light or any size category in the Campaign Setting book but common sense tells me light. Is this states somewhere else?
And for that matter what about two hand crossbows? Sure you need both hands to reload but what about the actual FIRING of them?
A combat round is a very small amount of time so dual firing pistols would be hard... I would say a -2 main hand (to compensate for the lack of the additional steadying arm) and a -4 or even higher for the off arm.(takes into account the kick from the first shot skewing aim slightly as well as the lack of steadying arm).
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For those who want the official version it's -2/-4 (main/offhand) and -2/-2 (main/offhand) with the two-weapon fighting feat.
I would argue that with the Two-weapon Fighting feat it's -4/-4 (main/offhand). There is currently no official ruling, only DM fiat. (In fact, if you go by the It-Only-Does-What-It-Says rule, there are no light firearms, so it would be -4/-4 if you have the feat.)
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Tom I suggest you read the crossbow rules (Core rules, Equipment Section, Crossbow text/description).
Pistols/revolvers are the same as light crossbows without the -2 penalty to shoot with one hand (which is fair, because you must spend an Exotic Weapon feat to use firearms; crossbows are simple weapon useable by anyone).
I am making no house rules here and have had players in my campaign using firearms rules so I had to take a pretty long look at the rules back a while ago.
Tom I suggest you read the crossbow rules (Core rules, Equipment Section, Crossbow text/description).
Pistols/revolvers are the same as light crossbows without the -2 penalty to shoot with one hand (which is fair, because you must spend an Exotic Weapon feat to use firearms; crossbows are simple weapon useable by anyone).
I am making no house rules here and have had players in my campaign using firearms rules so I had to take a pretty long look at the rules back a while ago.
Unless they are explicitly stated as being as crossbows, you are making house rules stating they are. That said, the only crossbow that is a light weapon is the hand crossbow.
Actually, while many modern handguns are built to be balanced with a steadying second hand, early revolvers and pistols were balanced to be held one handed. They'd be light weapons.
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Unless they are explicitly stated as being as crossbows, you are making house rules stating they are. That said, the only crossbow that is a light weapon is the hand crossbow.Tom I suggest you read the crossbow rules (Core rules, Equipment Section, Crossbow text/description).
Pistols/revolvers are the same as light crossbows without the -2 penalty to shoot with one hand (which is fair, because you must spend an Exotic Weapon feat to use firearms; crossbows are simple weapon useable by anyone).
I am making no house rules here and have had players in my campaign using firearms rules so I had to take a pretty long look at the rules back a while ago.
First of all, there is no such thing as a "light", "one handed", or "two handed" ranged weapon. These designations only apply to melee weapons, or to determine if a thrown weapon requires a standard or a full round action to throw.
Here's a few things you need to know before we have a rules discussion on projectile weapons:
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings,
heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows,
longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves,
hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile
weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to
use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no
Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon
unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or longbow,
or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength,
apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by
pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action
that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands.
However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with
one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a
light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on
attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons (see page
202). This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for onehanded
firing.
Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back
by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that
provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one
hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with
each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if
attacking with two light weapons (see page 202).
Note that the hand crossbow requires an Exotic Proficiency (like firearms), and specifically mentions that it can be fired with one hand at no penalty. The Firearms table of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting also specifically mentions that pistols and revolvers are fired one handed (as opposed to two handed requirements for musket, blunderbuss, etc.) The only differences between a hand crossbow and a pistol are range and damage (hand crossbows do 1d4 dmg and pistols do 1d6, which is explained by the price difference: hand xbow is 100gp, while pistols are really, really expensive and rare)
But hey, if you want to impose a -2 penalty to your players for shooting a handgun, it's your game I guess...
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Unless they are explicitly stated as being as crossbows, you are making house rules stating they are. That said, the only crossbow that is a light weapon is the hand crossbow.
Thanks, I was gonna say that!
First of all, there is no such thing as a "light", "one handed", or "two handed" ranged weapon. These designations only apply to melee weapons, or to determine if a thrown weapon requires a standard or a full round action to throw.
In general that's true, but the CS specifically calls out certain firearms as one- or two- handed. (Or maybe I should have said, "I suggest you read the firearms rules in the CS...") Also, the blunderbuss is one of those listed as a one-handed weapon.
Here's a few things you need to know before we have a rules discussion on projectile weapons:
The general rule of "requires two hands" is specifically counteracted for some guns, as noted above. The crossbow rules don't apply here (though I agree they can be useful for comparison to determine if a 4 lb. pistol could be considered a light weapon).
So just to re-iterate:
*The CS lists no light firearms.
*The only firearm that *might* be considered light is the 4 lb pistol; this assertion is made by comparing this weapon to *all* other core light weapons. When making this comparisson, my conclusion is that since 1) 4 lbs is on the heavy end of the Light category, 2) it's already specified as a one-handed weapon, and 3) the CS doesn't specify any light firearms, my conclusion is that the pistol is not a Light weapon.
*Firearms aren't crossbows.
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"Light" does not mean squat in terms of projectile weapons. To the best of my knowledge, according to the info provided in the CS, all firearms designated as "one handed" should use the rules for the hand crossbow, IMO.
Remember:
- price is high
- feat required
- ammo is expensive
- can blow in your face
So it's quite balanced IMO, and let's face it, it's low tech according to our modern real world standards, but it's high tech compared to a hand crossbow. Ask yourselves why they would even have developed this thing if it wasn't an improvement over hand crossbows? It also makes sense from an historical point of view: the reason why firearms prevailed is that they are a point and shoot weapon. Anyone can point and pull a trigger (thus no -2 penalty for firing one handed)
Give them guns, they should not be surprpised when heat metal is cast on the guns.
Wow the first guns, not masterwork for sure, probably poorly made they come with -1 to hit, -1 to damage, and misfire every 1d4 rounds.
The characters are not proficeint so more penalties....They will return to wands, especially magic missle if they want the same effect...
Wands don't get hot!....
Yeah, you should punish your players for no given reason!
o_O
Anyways, revolvers aren't equal to light crossbows, which had an elbow stock. Revolvers are hand crossbows. They were built to be balanced in one hand, and were indeed often used with dual wielding, both in story tropes and in actuality.
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Here's some more gun goodness for you Misery! :P
================
"The silver bullets are surprisingly hard, and even after impacting solid surfaces, there's very little deformation. I'm glad we got these sized properly prior to shooting them, because they're harder than we'd hoped. The ideal hunting round flattens on impact, forming a mushroom shape that limits penetration depth and increases the diameter of the wound. Unless we really slow them down or find some way to address the issue, these are going to create a .44 caliber hole right through the target. It's not what we'd hoped for, but it's something that the itenerate werewolf-hunter should be aware of."
http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullet14.shtml
...and:
"I decided to drill the hole the same but use my Dremel to grind out a ring in the base and several small grooves in the hole wall. I poured five more and went back to the range again with more homemade gelatine. These did much better as far as keeping their shape for longer and averaged between 4-5 inches of penetration before separation. These cycled well and I did not have any cycle issues with any of the bullets that were filled in with silver. Unfortunately I do not have any ballistic data as I did not have access to a speed trap at the time. However my goal was to make a semi auto round that was still reliable and used silver as a component. These rounds met that goal and and if a werewolf ever comes to visit I can sleep better at night knowing I wont be left wanting."
http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/hollowpoint.shtml
LOL! :)
Ultimate Combat listed them as One Handed Weapons. Older guns are longer and heavier are harder to maneuver. If you made them out of Darkwood and mithril to cut the weight in half and i would allow them to be light.
