What about the notion that language affects thought and behavior? For instance the gender-typing of inanimate objects in Romantic languages, or the gender self-identification of Thai.
If one posits that sexism is entrenched in the English language, it is necessarily a part of other languages as well; the English-speaking world is not uniquely guilty of sexism. Therefore the criticisms of English apply in varying degrees to other languages.
I'd like to hear from someone who can speak to this notion. Does the Spanish-speaking world--for example--have the same issues? Are Latina (and Latino) feminists pursuing the abolition of el, la and the -o/-a suffixes? Is this a uniquely English language concern?
Zo
"Everything feminism has done is good."
"Feminism is above reproach."You tell me.
Nobody is saying this. But you.
And your entire "point" is simply the other side of the coin - that feminism has never done good.
You're arguing against yourself.
It's not so much that I'm arguing against myself as I am pointing out faulty logic on your end. If all generalizations are bad, than those ones must be too and therefore need some examination rather than blindly assuming that feminists have the best interests of men (and the greater population) at heart.
Does the Spanish-speaking world--for example--have the same issues? Are Latina (and Latino) feminists pursuing the abolition of el, la and the -o/-a suffixes? Is this a uniquely English language concern?
Zo
I'd be surprised if they didn't given stories like this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4100140.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6206084.stm
I could give a sh*t which gender pronoun was used as the default as long as the grammar police would pick one and stick with it. English is already one of the hardest languages to learn and now we have to worry about alternating he and she every other paragraph or restructuring every sentence that normally used a singular he/she/his/her/etc. pronoun to become plural so the gender neutral 'they/their/etc.' can be used in its place.
Please find me ONE page in the 3.5 PH/DMG/MM or the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook where:
1) the gender of the pronoun alters every other paragraph, or
2) the sentence uses "they" as a neutral *singular* pronoun instead of "he" or "she."
I doubt you'll find #1. You may find #2, but it's probably rare.
Any really, even if you did find #2, how much "restructuring" is it to say
"If an NPC has a friendly attitude, they are willing to help the PCs with information or supplies."
instead of
"If an NPC has a friendly attitude, he is willing to help the PCs with information or supplies."
Not much at all. So why are you so upset about it?
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If all generalizations are bad, than those ones must be too and therefore need some examination rather than blindly assuming that feminists have the best interests of men (and the greater population) at heart.
Petrus, the real problem with your posts is that you're acting as if feminism was some sort of organized entity with a president and a membership list, and that the "leaders of feminism" controlled the direction of the entire feminist movement. Such a thing does not exist. The Catholic Church has the Pope, but there's no equivalent leader or organization for feminism. There are multiple, smaller groups with their own leaders and specific agendas, but none of them represent ALL feminists, and that's why you're going to see mixed messages and not have the "leader of all feminists" come down on specific radical feminists for their inflammatory comments.
You pointing out the alarmist statements of a small, radical subset of people with feminist leanings is like saying "all Muslims are terrorists" merely because a small, lunatic fringe of Muslims are terrorists. Yeah, there are some truly nutty, traumatized, man-hating women out there who say things like "all intercourse is rape, even if the woman says she's willing." They're no more representing all feminists than Osama Bin Laden represents all Muslims, or that you or I represent all gamers. And arguing from that perspective as if it were true (and you know it isn't, you're not stupid) is disingenous--and bigoted.
Petrus, the real problem with your posts is that you're acting as if feminism was some sort of organized entity with a president and a membership list, and that the "leaders of feminism" controlled the direction of the entire feminist movement.
Plus One.
Is this sudden spectre of feminism prompted by a Rush Limbaugh talking point? Methinks it may be. Congratulations on having your own opinions.
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It a bit to do with why I dumped DnD in the early 90's for WoD, which felt more welcoming to women. Least to me it did.
To be completely honest, I kind of hope more do not, for that reaon. When WoD did it, it was both nature, cool, and different. It fit, in my (male) opinion. Making it a norm annoys me a bit, though it has nothing to do with language or gender. More along the lines of jumping on a bandwagon.
They're no more representing all feminists than Osama Bin Laden represents all Muslims, or that you or I represent all gamers. And arguing from that perspective as if it were true (and you know it isn't, you're not stupid) is disingenous--and bigoted.
Sorry Sean but I have to disagree. Just because you question someone's intentions doesn't make you bigoted, and just because I happen to be questioning feminism doesn't make me a misogynist or disingenious. I've repeatedly said that not all feminists beleive it, but rather that the extremists have an inordinate amount of influence in the movement. And why shouldn't they? They're the ones with the single minded determination to stay the course and stay active when the moderates get on with living their lives.
The problem is that extremists are the ones who make change in the world for better or more importantly for worse. Somewhat tongue in cheek here, but consider the rise to power of a certain Chelaxian family. Much less tongue in cheek, consider what extremists in the last century in Russia, Japan, Cambodia, Germany and North Korea have done. Then read this or even just the first paragraph:
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0720roberts.html
and tell me that I shouldn't be at least a little bothered by one of those nutty man-hating women you mentioned, bragging about pulling a fast one on the senate.
Petrus222, you're about to stumble over a tinfoil hat.
I must say, I was really disappointed to click on this thread and not see a discussion on...well, something to do with "Xena Warrior Princess," or shoe fetishists, lemme say. Instead, it was the political same-old same-old.
Sigh.
Actually it kind of reminds me of a bad Reese's commercial.
"You got escapism in my politics."
"You got politics in my escapism."
Both after taking a bite: "Ewww this tastes awful."
Methinks we're doing it wrong.
How about we just enjoy the game?
Petrus222, you're about to stumble over a tinfoil hat.
My views are more based on the experiences of friends who've been divorced and trying to help them see their kids on a more regular basis than some conspiracy theory but whatever.
If it makes you more comfortable to think I'm in tinfoil hat scene, as opposed to critically thinking about the links I posted (and more importantly where those links are from)so be it.
When this thread brought up the subject, I was wondering, what does "Feminism" mean now-a-days?"Feminism is the absurd concept that women should have the same rights as men." --I can't remember
I've always like "Women working together collectively to solve collective problems," myself.
Petrus, the real problem with your posts is that you're acting as if feminism was some sort of organized entity with a president and a membership list, and that the "leaders of feminism" controlled the direction of the entire feminist movement. Such a thing does not exist. The Catholic Church has the Pope, but there's no equivalent leader or organization for feminism. There are multiple, smaller groups with their own leaders and specific agendas, but none of them represent ALL feminists, and that's why you're going to see mixed messages and not have the "leader of all feminists" come down on specific radical feminists for their inflammatory comments.
You pointing out the alarmist statements of a small, radical subset of people with feminist leanings is like saying "all Muslims are terrorists" merely because a small, lunatic fringe of Muslims are terrorists. Yeah, there are some truly nutty, traumatized, man-hating women out there who say things like "all intercourse is rape, even if the woman says she's willing." They're no more representing all feminists than Osama Bin Laden represents all Muslims, or that you or I represent all gamers. And arguing from that perspective as if it were true (and you know it isn't, you're not stupid) is disingenous--and bigoted.
+1. Good post.
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My views are more based on the experiences of friends who've been divorced and trying to help them see their kids on a more regular basis than some conspiracy theory but whatever.
Because a handful of divorce cases stack up as equal to centuries of physical, political, and social oppression of women?
A hundred years ago, women weren't ALLOWED TO VOTE in this country, let alone divorce their husbands.
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And the sins of the past forgive the sins of the present Sean?
I'm pretty sure it's not what you meant, but it sounded like the fact that women used to be unable to divorce their husbands means it's not a problem now when a woman divorces her husband and refuses to allow him to see the children he is paying to help support.
Down to the fourth generation. Hey, that's how it worked in the past. ;)
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It a bit to do with why I dumped DnD in the early 90's for WoD, which felt more welcoming to women. Least to me it did.To be completely honest, I kind of hope more do not, for that reaon. When WoD did it, it was both nature, cool, and different. It fit, in my (male) opinion. Making it a norm annoys me a bit, though it has nothing to do with language or gender. More along the lines of jumping on a bandwagon.
I meant to say if that wasn't clear cause i forgot a whole word there was.
It HAD a bit to do with why I dumped DnD...
But after reading all the posts in this thread. I think at this point I am going to bow out of it.
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People of X Religion are all insane extremists who want to control the world and wipe out everyone else.
This, sadly enough, is true more often than not. EVERY religion would be happy to remove all of their opposition; whether it be through violent means or constant proselytizing. Every religion is The Only Way™ and if you ain't with em you're gonna burn in hell.
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My views are more based on the experiences of friends who've been divorced and trying to help them see their kids on a more regular basis than some conspiracy theory but whatever.Because a handful of divorce cases stack up as equal to centuries of physical, political, and social oppression of women?
A hundred years ago, women weren't ALLOWED TO VOTE in this country, let alone divorce their husbands.
That's an easy enough position to take when you're not the one being denied access to your children. This argument is flimsy at best. Yes, 100 years ago women couldn't divorce their husband, but does that mean that the balance of power should go the other way entirely? Feminists claim to want true equality, which i have no problem with. When it comes to the divorce courts, however, the balance of power has shifted dramatically in the complete opposite direction.
There were a lot of things that happened 100 years ago that were deplorable, but to dwell on them is ridiculous. There is no way to move forward as a society if all of our attention is focused on the mistakes of the past. Focus on the mistakes still being made in the present, correct them, and move forward.
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Please find me ONE page in the 3.5 PH/DMG/MM or the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook where:
1) the gender of the pronoun alters every other paragraph, or
2) the sentence uses "they" as a neutral *singular* pronoun instead of "he" or "she."I doubt you'll find #1. You may find #2, but it's probably rare.
Any really, even if you did find #2, how much "restructuring" is it to say
"If an NPC has a friendly attitude, they are willing to help the PCs with information or supplies."
instead of
"If an NPC has a friendly attitude, he is willing to help the PCs with information or supplies."Not much at all. So why are you so upset about it?
In a previous post i stated that i have no problem with PF's use of the correct gender specific pronoun for the iconic classes. And the example you use is, of course, a non-issue because no reformatting is necessary.
The example that the MLA format page gives is this:
Rather than:
The librarian should plan his schedule to allow time for writing.
Preferred:
The librarian should plan a schedule that allows time for writing.
The librarian's schedule should allow time for writing.
Librarians should plan their schedules to allow time for writing.
source
Sure, looks easy enough, but over the course of a paper having to constantly rewrite any sentence that is singular and uses a pronoun OR remember to switch back and forth throughout the paper is unnecessarily burdensome. This is just one more pain in the @ss wonky rule of the English language that our children have to deal with when they could be learning other, more important things. (like the history of the women's suffrage or civil rights movements...a hell of a lot more important for them to know and respect than when it's PC to use he vs. she vs. they)
She's gotten mentioned in other places discussing this thread, if that makes you happy, Erik.
Heck, the first time I saw this thread, I thought it said Dungeons and Fetishism. Then I put in my contacts. Darn.
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Since it's turning into a free-for-all...
Personally I'm getting, scratch that, I've grown as tired and irritated with guys knee-jerking with resentment towards females wanting equal treatment as I have with women who hijack feminism for the crazy(sup insane Firefly rant girl and Seoni fanservice outrage guy).
Hell, I remember one girl getting jumped on here simply because she liked that one of the cultures in Golarion had tough women in equal number with the men. wtf, mang
Seriously, is it any surprise that some female gamers might still be a bit bitter or uncomfortable about the gaming scene when some guys go off on rants about women "looking like men" (ie: having musculature actually appropriate for a warrior) or that RPGs are trying to shove feminist matriarchal Mary Suetopias down the players' throats and blah blah blah like no all-encompassing in-game sexism being historically inaccurate for a fantasy role playing game.
It just always strikes me as 10 year old "NO GURLS ALOWED" treehouse politics at time whenever such attitudes pop up, and it makes my face a sad face.
Like this. :(
Alternatively >:(
-----
As for he or she, don't really care. As long as it's consistant for the section of text it's happening in(unless you're talking about Slaanesh or something), it doesn't really matter.
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Just a reminder because I don't want anyone being banned for having an opinion, there are some rules here we need to keep in mind.
"Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party."
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Just a reminder because I don't want anyone being banned for having an opinion, there are some rules here we need to keep in mind.
"Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them;
Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party."
Also, "Don't be a dick." Appended unofficially to the rules by Erik Mona IIRC.
I say we remove all opposition to smurfs by slitting throats or converting people to blue little people.
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Man I want to make a reference to the Thailand section of Our Dumb World in my defense but there is absolutely nothing in it safe for this forum.that's sexist. . .
:)
I'm confussed?
Not that you need to defend yourself, (I was joking), but I'm not sure what that means. (Thailand section of Our Dumb World?)
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Man I want to make a reference to the Thailand section of Our Dumb World in my defense but there is absolutely nothing in it safe for this forum.that's sexist. . .
:)
I'm confussed?
Not that you need to defend yourself, (I was joking), but I'm not sure what that means. (Thailand section of Our Dumb World?)
Our Dumb World is an altas put out by The Onion. It's one of the blackest pieces of comedy put out in recent years. Thailand was a particularly uncomfortable chapter, the prevalence of women with [DATA EXPUNGED] being the most innocent things in that entry.
Basically, most countries got boiled down to a theme. Thailand got "all-encompassing sex industry".
link?
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link?
Do NOT buy a copy for anyone who is easily depressed.
I had to stop reading for a bit after I got to Africa. It's still laugh-out-loud funny, but damn do you feel awful afterwards.
Democratic Republic of the Congo was possibly the worst chapter in the book as far as assaulting the reader with weaponized despair.
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Man I want to make a reference to the Thailand section of Our Dumb World in my defense but there is absolutely nothing in it safe for this forum.that's sexist. . .
:)
I'm confussed?
Not that you need to defend yourself, (I was joking), but I'm not sure what that means. (Thailand section of Our Dumb World?)
Our Dumb World is an altas put out by The Onion. It's one of the blackest pieces of comedy put out in recent years. Thailand was a particularly uncomfortable chapter, the prevalence of women with [DATA EXPUNGED] being the most innocent things in that entry.
Basically, most countries got boiled down to a theme. Thailand got "all-encompassing sex industry".
Ah, interesting. I take it that [DATA EXPUNGED] = boy parts, than.
I've heard of The Onion, but never read it. That was the Canadian site that takes a lot of newspaper stories (and other things), and makes jokes of them?
All I can say is ... WOW.
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I've heard of The Onion, but never read it. That was the Canadian site that takes a lot of newspaper stories (and other things), and makes jokes of them?
Often to hilarious effect. Generally dependable for comedy and offbeat satire.
Their articles have the unfortunate habit of being taken seriously by other news sources. Take what you will from that concerning the integrity of our news media.
news medias have integrity these days? We're being sucked in by the TMZinization of 24 hour drudgery.
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I've heard of The Onion, but never read it. That was the Canadian site that takes a lot of newspaper stories (and other things), and makes jokes of them?
Often to hilarious effect. Generally dependable for comedy and offbeat satire.
Their articles have the unfortunate habit of being taken seriously by other news sources. Take what you will from that concerning the integrity of our news media.
Mexico was funny.
