Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Question: should it matter how many PCs are killed? There was one poster up-thread (and I apologize for being unable to reference it better) who said that he'd bring in replacement characters just a little lower than APL, unless there was a TPK, in which case "of course" the campaign would restart at 1st Level.
I assume, O poster, that you aren't running a pre-written Adventure Path. If the party is wiped out by the <redacted> that guards the entrance to the Runeforge, I can't imagine that a perky band of novices will fare much better.
What if the whole party is killed except one PC? Does that one character end up two levels higher than everybody else? Does he get everybody's (recoverable) loot?
One of my long standing house rules is how to handle replacement characters and tpks. I typically give the players a range of options to select before I begin the campaign - ranging from "start at 1st level" to "start at the same level as everyone else". They usually choose the option that seems to be the consensus in this thread - lowest level -1.
As part of those house rules, I also typically include something saying "all the dead character's loot (other than plot items) is either destroyed or returned to his family." It's a bit of a kludge, but I've been in games where a high level PC died and the replacement PC just happened to be able to use all of the dead PC's gear and had his own starting equipment.
I've played in one campaign where we were asked to stat up "replacement characters," which we'd play every so often. They were something like the Junior Varsity team working for the organization that employed the party. That way, if a "primary" character died hideously, the back-up could be raised in level and join the party, as an acquaintance. ("Daniel's dead? Welcome to the team, Jonas.")Has anyone else had any experience with that?
I've done that a lot. We frequently roll up two characters when we start a campaign - the primary character, and the secondary character for when that one dies. I even ran one campaign with a mix of the two groups. The party was in a thieves guild, and the primary characters had differing agendas. They ended up dividing up their territory among the primary characters and the others took up the roles of the secondary characters. The primary characters were 2-3 levels higher than the secondary characters, but they were a minority of the party, so it generally worked out pretty well.
I thought leg humping was your shtick...
What? A poodle can't have more than one shtick?
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I do find it funny that what I normally find to be pretty contentious on boards of if you take a new character he's one level lower than the lowest level member of the party went completely unnoticed. Usually I have people complaining about how they can't participate in level appropriate challenges. But lillith'sthrall blew any reactions to my post away.
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Yeah, but you said upthread that the only right way to play the game is to have everyone start new characters at 1st level.No, I didn't. And you all know I didn't.
Ahem
I've told you how our game is played. If someone dies, they come back at 1st level.
If you haven't read that, then stop commenting on posts you aren't reading.
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I do find it funny that what I normally find to be pretty contentious on boards of if you take a new character he's one level lower than the lowest level member of the party went completely unnoticed. Usually I have people complaining about how they can't participate in level appropriate challenges. But lillith'sthrall blew any reactions to my post away.
Its all ballpark. Once you're outside the ballpark, you're not even playing the same game anymore. One level is the difference between the best player on the team and an average member of the team, while going back to first is like letting the equipment manager play.
... blew any reactions to my post away.
Can you actually repost it and I'll respond? I am *NOT* going back to that page and wading through that crap.
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... blew any reactions to my post away.Can you actually repost it and I'll respond? I am *NOT* going back to that page and wading through that crap.
Um I did inside the post you quoted lol.
Lowest level party member -1.
I do find it funny that what I normally find to be pretty contentious on boards of if you take a new character he's one level lower than the lowest level member of the party went completely unnoticed. Usually I have people complaining about how they can't participate in level appropriate challenges. But lillith'sthrall blew any reactions to my post away.
This means that a person who was the highest level character could come back two to three levels lower if he doesn't get raised. Usually it means that he looses a level or two at most.
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whatever your current level is doesn't matter. if you take a new character when yours dies/retires he will be 1 level lower than whoever the lowest level character in the current party is.
New players joining their characters start 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party.
Right now in my game I have a level 7, a level 6, and a level 5 character. If the level 7 character died and didn't get raised his new character would start at level 4. (the level 5 character is one who just joined)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Lastknight left:
So, if the party consisted of:
Hector - 12th Level Ranger
Achilles - 10th Level Fighter
Cassandra - 10th Level Cleric
Telemachus - 8th Level Ranger
If Hector, Achilles, or Cassandra were to die, the replacement characters would enter the campaign at 7th level, because Telemachus is 8th Level, and (8 - 1 = 7).
But if Telemachus dies, the replacement character would come in at 9th Level.
Taking it further, if Hector was the only survivor, the rest would come back at 11th. :D
But if Telemachus dies, the replacement character would come in at 9th Level.
Brb, mass suicide.
Taking it further, if Hector was the only survivor, the rest would come back at 11th. :D
But if Telemachus dies, the replacement character would come in at 9th Level.
Sweet Mother of Mentzer.... Gaining levels through dying... I like it.
The question is level of current chars pre-death... or current level of the survivors?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Yeah, but you said upthread that the only right way to play the game is to have everyone start new characters at 1st level.No, I didn't. And you all know I didn't.
Ahem
I've told you how our game is played. If someone dies, they come back at 1st level.
If you haven't read that, then stop commenting on posts you aren't reading.
I think you need to reread my post...
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Lastknight left:
So, if the party consisted of:
Hector - 12th Level Ranger
Achilles - 10th Level Fighter
Cassandra - 10th Level Cleric
Telemachus - 8th Level RangerIf Hector, Achilles, or Cassandra were to die, the replacement characters would enter the campaign at 7th level, because Telemachus is 8th Level, and (8 - 1 = 7).
But if Telemachus dies, the replacement character would come in at 9th Level.
nope 7th, I count the person who died as well.
Hmm, after thinking about it, forcing all characters to come back at 1st level isn't a horrible balance idea if the party is relatively low level. If you never see beyond 10th level, it's not a *horrible* situation. Yeah, a 1st level character in a party with APL 14 is going to suck. But in a party of ~APL 4 (2, 3, 5, 7 -- APL 4.25), it's not exactly a fail. This would work best in an Evil DM campaign where character death happens all the time. That way, the APL won't get very high at all. . .
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The games I run tend to run until about 10th or 11th level (only had a few go above that). For most of their careers then, they're only low to mid level. Still, the difference between a fourth level character and a 1st level character is enough to be fairly detrimental to the ability of a 1st level character to contribute reasonably.
We keep the levels the same so that people can focus less on what they can do and more on roleplaying their character.
Two things level 1 character can contribute to a level 10 party are: 1) delivering a plot device and 2) providing input.
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What I do with my current group is if a character dies and is not raised for some reason (lack of funds, or lack of opportunity) I let them make a new character with a 20% hit to their last characters xp. This is mainly to prevent those players (i'm sure many of us have seen one) that like to make tons of characters and get so excited about the char they just made that they become suicidal with their current char. To help offset this I give bonus xp for a written background story, as well as bonus xp if the new character is good aligned (currently having a rash of evil characters in my campaign).
As for dealing with absent players, if a player misses a game he recieves the same xp as everyone else minus 10%. I also only ever divide the xp by 6 even though I generally have 7 players.
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I think you need to reread my post...
Yeah, but you said upthread that the only right way to play the game is to have everyone start new characters at 1st level.No, I didn't. And you all know I didn't.
Ahem
I've told you how our game is played. If someone dies, they come back at 1st level.
If you haven't read that, then stop commenting on posts you aren't reading.
Uh I was quoting LillithsThrall's denial of saying something when up thread he quite clearly had?
Two things level 1 character can contribute to a level 10 party are: 1) delivering a plot device and 2) providing input.
An NPC?
That is a good idea, Tilquinith. Like I said, I give the XP they would have gotten in the adventure they died, but I'd be happy to grant XP if they provided a very detailed backstory detailing what they've done in their past to gain that XP. After all, the only reason I penalize in the first place is to give the player a chance to connect with their character.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Uh I was quoting LillithsThrall's denial of saying something when up thread he quite clearly had?I think you need to reread my post...
Yeah, but you said upthread that the only right way to play the game is to have everyone start new characters at 1st level.No, I didn't. And you all know I didn't.
Ahem
I've told you how our game is played. If someone dies, they come back at 1st level.
If you haven't read that, then stop commenting on posts you aren't reading.
Hmmm...try one more time...
Two things level 1 character can contribute to a level 10 party are: 1) delivering a plot device and 2) providing input.An NPC?
PCs don't deliver plot devices or provide input?
But I'm starting to get interested now. What would a lvl 1 do in an AVL7-10 party? How would he contribute? I assume he will act like any char in non-combat situations, though his rolls will be significantly lower unless nobody else leveled that skill except him.
But what about combat? He will die on 1 hit. His mates cannot protect him against any intelligent foe. Will he simply hide behind a tree until combat is over? Although I can understand that longtime D&D friends might have a habitual rule of bringing people back as lvl 1, there just seems no purpose to it in a higher level party. Although the lvl 1 player might have fun being lvl 1, I'm pretty sure he will have more fun being lvl 10 just like the rest. If not, why would the rest be level 10 and not keep making new lvl 1 chars (if it's more fun)?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Uh I was quoting LillithsThrall's denial of saying something when up thread he quite clearly had?I think you need to reread my post...
Yeah, but you said upthread that the only right way to play the game is to have everyone start new characters at 1st level.No, I didn't. And you all know I didn't.
Ahem
I've told you how our game is played. If someone dies, they come back at 1st level.
If you haven't read that, then stop commenting on posts you aren't reading.No, I clearly hadn't. Is English a second language for you?
"If someone dies, they come back at 1st level" is not in any conceivable manner even remotely similar to saying that the way our game is played is the only true way to play the game.
Hmmm...are you sure you're reading it with sufficient care? I hate having to repeat myself over and over because people aren't reading my posts...
Hmmm...are you sure you're reading it with sufficient care? I hate having to repeat myself over and over because people aren't reading my posts...
I'm sorry what did you type? I wasn't reading.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For Chris,
Alrightly, I'll dial it back to silly. I'd be curious as to the answers to the questions you raised as well, I'm just not sure they can be delivered without a side order of "you're a power-gamer who's not interested in roleplaying and the One True Way of D&D." But, hey, maybe there's someone who both uses the system and can explain how it works without attacking everyone else. Stranger things have happened in this world...
Thank you. Much appreciated!
If I were to decided to bring returning or new characters in at 1st Level, I'd be aware of my responsibilities as a DM. It's never a good idea to throw a roc attack at a 1st level PC, not even if the rest of the party is 10th Level. So I'd throw the party up against, say, a roc and its newborn fledgling (CR 2 or 3). And there would have to be an unwritten agreement that would keep the 10th-level mage from blasting the fledgling with an incidental lightning bolt on her way to the serious fight.
"You face a Vrock, and two lemures." Kind of like how, when Superman and Batman square off against the Parasite and Joker, Superman doesn't take an action to rip the Joker's head off at the start of the fight.
The dangers of bringing in characters at Level 1:
Tom & His Chums P1
Tom & His Chums P2
Not quite safe for work in Part 2.
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Thank you. Much appreciated!If I were to decided to bring returning or new characters in at 1st Level, I'd be aware of my responsibilities as a DM. It's never a good idea to throw a roc attack at a 1st level PC, not even if the rest of the party is 10th Level. So I'd throw the party up against, say, a roc and its newborn fledgling (CR 2 or 3). And there would have to be an unwritten agreement that would keep the 10th-level mage from blasting the fledgling with an incidental lightning bolt on her way to the serious fight.
"You face a Vrock, and two lemures." Kind of like how, when Superman and Batman square off against the Parasite and Joker, Superman doesn't take an action to rip the Joker's head off at the start of the fight.
Seems like there are two different games going on then. That 1st level guy can still be killed by the baby roc or lemures fairly easy, except that the 10th level guys are still going to sweep the baddies up when one good hit sends the 1st level guy running for cover. You'd want a lower CR than 1st for that character to deal with, so the differences in Monster CRs are far more dramatic.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thank you. Much appreciated!
I failed a save or two in the meantime, but hopefully the thread's a little more back on track now...
"You face a Vrock, and two lemures." Kind of like how, when Superman and Batman square off against the Parasite and Joker, Superman doesn't take an action to rip the Joker's head off at the start of the fight.
That would be the best comic ever.
Hmmm...one other thought would be to take a look at some of the Rifts threads. That game has a pretty big difference in power level among the various character classes and it seems like the day-to-day experience under that system would be pretty relevant to this question. I ran a Rifts game once where the guys in heavy armor had to infiltrate a facility w/o their fancy equipment. They encountered a megadamage foe and only had a single character capable of withstanding (and dealing) the necessary damage. After that character landed a few blows on the opponent, I let everyone else in the party know that there were cracks in the opponent's armor that could be targeted with regular weapons.
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Two things level 1 character can contribute to a level 10 party are: 1) delivering a plot device and 2) providing input.Only that's not contributing anything special. You're the ballboy of the sports team. Anyone can do that.
What's with all the sports analogies?
One level is the difference between the best player on the team and an average member of the team, while going back to first is like letting the equipment manager play.
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What's with all the sports analogies?My bad. Lemme try again.
It's like being the quirky mascot character on a superhero team. Sure, Snarf can be hero for an episode of Thundercats, but you have to use plot contrivances to make it happen by negating the rest of the Thundercats.
He was more a football than the mascot... kind of like the cheat (does anyone go to Homestarrunner.com anymore?)
Anyway, this is too true. You've got to do a lot of negating of the higher level abilities to make a 1st level character feel heroic in such a situation.
Two things level 1 character can contribute to a level 10 party are: 1) delivering a plot device and 2) providing input.
When I had to bring in a new character at L1 "back in the day," my contributions consisted of: 1) hiding and 2) dying. It was not fun. Since fun is the point of playing, I wouldn't play in a game like that again.
A level or two behind does not seem to be a huge handicap, but as a lazy DM, I don't want to bother worrying about a mixed-level party. I've pretty much gone the Tri-O route and simply tell the group where to level up to fit the AP. I *was* tracking XP before that, but when my hard drive failed and the spreadsheet disappeared, I decided nobody would be any the wiser.
EDIT: Disclaimer: this in no way implies that Mr. Omega is a lazy DM. I apply that sobriquet only to myself.
...I decided nobody would be any the wiser.We are now!
Dammit! Stupid Intarwebz!
What's with all the sports analogies?My bad. Lemme try again.
It's like being the quirky mascot character on a superhero team. Sure, Snarf can be hero for an episode of Thundercats, but you have to use plot contrivances to make it happen by negating the rest of the Thundercats.
So?