I'm working on a DPR calculator (I'm sure many already exist, and if you have a link to one, that would be great) that takes into account crits and damage resistance. Just for a simple calculation, I have:
1st level paladin using a scimitar
Attack bonus: +4
Damage: 1d6+3
Crit: 18-20x2For DPR vs. various ACs, I get:
AC 15: 3.74 dpr
AC 20: 1.87 dprDoes that look right?
Against AC 15, a +4 need an 11 or better to hit. That is a 50% chance to hit. Average damage on a normal hit is 6.5. You have a 3/20(15%) chance for a threat, and a 50% chance of confirming the threat, and crit will do an additional 6.5 damage on average.
So, 6.5*50% + 6.5*15%*50% = 3.7375 = 3.74 DPR
Against AC20 the same calculation with a 25% chance to hit and to confirm crits.
So, 6.5*25% + 6.5*15%*25% = 1.8688 = 1.87 DPR
The formula will start to break down when you threat range becomes greater than your chance to hit.
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Is the longsword better than a scimitar?
At first level, or 5th level? yes.
At tenth or eleventh level, with the Improved Critical feat (instead of keen) and a Crit feat? Not even close.
Some quick and dirty math: let's compare the first attack a round using each weapon.
Assume a hit on 11 or higher (quick math, remember). So that's a 50% chance to hit.
Now for damage, lets assume a +1 flaming shocking holy weapon (loaded up with +1d6 damage), a Strength of 18 (low for an 11th level character), a level of 11, Improved Critical but no critical feat, and an evil target with smite evil.
For the Longsword, that's 1d8+4 +1+4d6 +11, average of 34.5 (4.5+4+1+4*3.5+11). 14 of that damage is from energy properties, so is not multiplied on a critical, so additional critical damage is 20.5 (34.5-14).
For the Scimitar, that's 1d6+4 +1+4d6 +11, average of 33.5 (3.5+4+1+4*3.5+11). Again, 14 of that damage is from energy properties, so is not multiplied on a critical, so critical damage is 19.5 (33.5-14).
The Longsword is very slightly better on a normal hit, regardless of your hit chance.
But, assuming an 11 or higher hits, and the Improved Critical feat, things get interesting.
Longsword: an 11 or higher hits, so 50% of 34.5 damage base. A threat happens on a 17-20 (4/20 = 2/10 = 20%), and is confirmed 50% of the time, so that's an additional 20% * 50% * 20.5
(0.5*34.5 +0.2*0.5*20.5) = (17.25+2.05) = 19.3 average damage.
Scimitar: n 11 or higher hits, so 50% of 33.5 damage base. A threat happens on a 15-20 (6/20 = 3/10 = 30%), and is confirmed 50% of the time, so that's an additional 30% * 50% * 19.5
(0.5*33.5 +0.3*0.5*19.5) = (16.75+2.925) = 19.675 average damage.
Taking criticals into account, the scimitar does slightly more damage.
But really, it does significantly more damage. There's no power attack, the strength is low, there's no bonus damage from bardic music or enlarge person.
The Scimitar is better because it scales better. It starts out weaker, and taken at face value is always below the longsword. But once damage adding abilities start becoming common (which is right around when Improved Critical becomes available), that expanded threat range is worth A LOT more than +1 damage.
If the math is hard to follow, look at it this way: With the Improved Critical feat, the Scimitar crits 10% more often. So which is better, an extra +1 damage on every attack, or getting your +Paladin Level smite damage AND your +Power Attack damage AND all your party buff effects doubled 10% more often?
Whenever all that stuff totals 10 or more, the scimitar is better. At 10th or 11th level, it should ALWAYS be totaling 10 or more.
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well, in any event, the scimitar will never be so much better than the longsword that having it is somehow bad. At high levels, the scimitar pulls ahead, but it's never way out in front.
If you are starting at level one, going with a longsword will give you more damage at lower levels, which is when you really need it.
I think part of the confusion comes from the greatsword vs falchion comparison. The greatsword is a little better at low levels, but as soon as Imp Crit and the Critical feats are available, the falchion is significantly better. But for longswords vs scimitars, the difference is never really dramatic.
Go with what fits.
I think the idea is that when you start talking about level 10 characters, you are talking about having a strength of 18 with a +4 strength belt, a +3 weapon, an your BAB is sitting at +10.
You to hit is going to be 10(BAB) +6(strength) +3(weapon) +1(weapon focus) = +20 You are going to be hitting 25 AC on a 5+. Throw in a bard song, bless spell, or haste, and you are even better. Unless you are fighting targets with AC of 30+, you are better off using power attack.
Your bonuses to damage is going to be +6(strength) +3(weapon) = +9 for a one hander, +12 if you are using it 2 handed. At that point the 1 point difference between a 1d6 and a 1d8 weapon accounts for 8% of your total damage. While the increased threat range is a 5% increase in damage. If you have improved critical it is a 10% gain for a net gain 2% damage. As you gain more damage bonuses from (strength, power attack, magic weapons), this advantage will grow.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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well, in any event, the scimitar will never be so much better than the longsword that having it is somehow bad. At high levels, the scimitar pulls ahead, but it's never way out in front.
It depends on a variety of facts, but I get around a 5-10% increase in DPR at high level (I modeled at 16). That's pretty big increase considering that one pays (ostensibly) nothing for the choice.
If you are starting at level one, going with a longsword will give you more damage at lower levels, which is when you really need it.
Longswords are better at lower level. But my conclusion would be the opposite of yours. At low level mellee is comparatively strong, and the damage output matters the least, a lot of creatures die in one hit. As you increase in level you need better scaling to keep pace. This is both because of the power increase of spell casters and also exponential monster HP growth.
I think part of the confusion comes from the greatsword vs falchion comparison. The greatsword is a little better at low levels, but as soon as Imp Crit and the Critical feats are available, the falchion is significantly better. But for longswords vs scimitars, the difference is never really dramatic.
The differences in damage may be bigger in absolute terms, but not really in terms of ratio.
A few more notes:
The Critical Feats are pretty solid. They scale well with Crit chance and with Bless Weapon.
I used this critical effect because it is accessible at lower level and easily modeled. I might choose a nastier effect in actual play
I treated it as a flat +7 bonus to damage on a crit. In reality, the effect can persist until a creature heals so it will usually be more.
So this model should be viewed as a conservative estimate. It gives at minimum an 8 DPR increase for the scimitar user, once again, more if the creature doesn't heal.
All that said, until you have one of the two active in most combats:
1) Bless Weapon
2) Keen/Imp Crit
A longsword will usually be better.
If you have one, they are about the same.
If you have both the scimitar is better.
Above 11th level, the scimitar is probably better regardless.
John Spalding Where are you getting rules that let you stack keen and improved crit? That would be nice but each entry says it doesn't stack with any other. Keen even explicitly says it doesn't stack with Improved Crit.
My Paladin would appreciate it if it did though :).
It's just a matter of amassing enough damage that the extra 5%/10% chance of critting (times your damage) is equal to the additional 1 point from a longsword.
At 5%, you need to do 20; at 10%, you need to do just 10. At that point you're equal, anything more and you inch ahead. (Roughly, there's some variation from different things of course). It really starts to make a difference when bonuses from other party members affect you also. Prayer, Bardic music, etc.
Rarely is there a *huge* difference though. Two-handers stack up the damage faster, so the difference comes earlier, and to a larger extent. Power attacking (if it increases the damage for the longsword), will increase the difference.
Have fun!
Edit: Sigurd - I don't think Spalding was saying they stacked, just that you needed one or the other.
John Spalding Where are you getting rules that let you stack keen and improved crit? That would be nice but each entry says it doesn't stack with any other. Keen even explicitly says it doesn't stack with Improved Crit.
My Paladin would appreciate it if it did though :).
You can't. What he is saying is that when you get one or the other. It doesn't matter which one you get as long as you get one of them.
You can't. What he is saying is that when you get one or the other. It doesn't matter which one you get as long as you get one of them.
Sorry John, My apologies.