For reference, here's the SRD for fighter.
This thread is for discussing suggestions to dramatically rewrite the fighter core class. To many DMs, fighters gain power at a slower pace than other characters, and for a character class designated as a master of arms, other characters can fairly easily out-shine him in the role of combat. To this end, the fighter class (to many DMs) need to be dramatically rewritten.
If you are happy with the fighter as written (FAW), then more power to you. As the First Rule of Pathfinder says, you need to Make The Game Your Own, and certainly you can't do that if someone is telling you your fighter is broken. However, there is quite a bit of truth to the saying, Your Mileage May Vary, and from a subjective standpoint what may be a broken fighter to some DMs and designers may seem like a balanced and fun class to others. It's okay to disagree; however, please keep in mind that this is not the place to discuss whether fighters need to be rewritten, but rather if they were to be rewritten, how would it be done.
So, without further ado, let's let some suggestions fly like a quickened fly spell!
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- Increase Will to good save progression
- Increase skill points per level to 4 + Int
- Add Diplomacy and Perform (oratory) to the fighter's class skill list
- Replace the bonus feats at the following levels with the following feats:
4 - Weapon Specialization, bonus feat
6 - Disruptive
8 - Greater Weapon Focus, bonus feat
10 - Spellbreaker
12 - Penetrating Strike, bonus feat
14 - Greater Weapon Specialization
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike, bonus feat
Some more suggestions, from the other fighter thread:
Fighter
add the following class features at the indicated levels:
3 - triumph pool, technique
5 - technique
7 - technique
9 - technique
11 - advanced techniques, technique
13 - technique
15 - technique
17 - technique
19 - technique
Triumph pool -- A fighter has many hidden reserves of strength and skill to draw on in times of need. These reserves are represented by triumph points -- the ability of fighters to carry out extraordinary techniques. A fighter at any given time has a maximum triumph pool equal to one half of his current levels in fighter, plus his constitution bonus.
Techniques (available at 3rd level) -- As a fighter's skills develop, he's able to draw on his hidden reserves of strengths in different ways. Depending on his training, he will be able to manifest his strength to enhance his attacks, focus his skills, or increase his defenses. Select a technique from the following list and add it to your previous skills.
Strategic Blow -- As part of a single attack during his turn, a fighter may add a special effect to one of his attacks. The player must declare which attack the effect is being added to. The possible effects and costs are listed as follows:
(1 point): bleeding (+1d6 per round), dazing (1 round), deafening, dazzling; (2 points): bleeding (+2d6 per round), blinding, staggering, sickening.
Crushing Blow -- Once per round, a fighter may spend 2 triumph points to strike especially forcefully with the attack at his highest bonus. Treat this roll as a roll to confirm a critical: if the roll succeeds, multiply its damage times its critical multiplier; if the roll fails, it still hits normally, as per any other critical threat roll. Do not multiply any damage that is not normally multiplied for a critical hit.
Follow-Through -- A fighter may spend 1 triumph point to add another attack at the fighter's highest attack bonus. This does not stack with effects which add additional attacks, such as haste.
Impossible Mark -- As part of a normal attack in a fighter's turn, he may choose to spend 2 triumph points to greatly enhance his combat abilities to make unusually accurate attacks. Upon spending the triumph points, the fighter gains a +5 competence bonus to a melee or ranged attack. Additionally, for ranged attacks the weapon's range increment is effectively doubled (i.e. a range increment of 100 ft. is increased to 200 ft., etc.).
Artful Maneuver -- As part of a combat maneuver, a fighter may spend two triumph points to gain a competence bonus of +5 to his combat maneuver in this round only. At 10th level, this bonus increases to +10.
Advanced techniques (available at 11th level) -- At 11th level, a fighter may choose any of these advanced techniques to add to his repertoire.
Wall of Steel -- To use this technique a fighter must be equipped with a shield. As part of a Total Defense action, the fighter may spend 3 triumph points to gain DR 5/-- for one round. At 15th level, the damage reduction increases to 10/--.
Rapid Recovery -- immediate action. When reduced to 0 hit points or lower (but not enough to kill), the fighter may spend 3 triumph points to gain as many temporary hit points as he has levels in the fighter class.
Unbending Determination -- immediate action. When forced to make a Will save, a fighter may choose to spend 3 triumph points to gain a +4 bonus to his Will saves for this save only. The fighter must choose to spend the triumph points and take the bonus before he rolls his Will save. At 15th level, this bonus increases to +6
Timely Intervention -- Immediate interrupt. Once per round when one of your allies is being attacked, you can choose to spend 3 triumph points to push your ally out of the way and take the attack instead. Your ally is therefore allowed to take a 5-ft step in any direction he chooses, even if they have already taken a 5-ft step in this turn. If you have moved already this turn, your next turn will be skipped. In either case, your initiative will be reset to the same value as the attacker targeted.
Human shield -- Immediate interrupt. Upon being attacked but before the roll has been made, a fighter may spend 3 triumph points to replace himself with any enemy no greater than 5 ft. away, causing the enemy he replaced himself with to be attacked instead. A fighter may not use this technique more than once per round.
Gaping wound -- As a part of a fighter's normal attack, he may cause a major wound to a non-critical area, causing blood to gush out and the target to suffer from 1 Con bleed damage each succeeding turn. The target or one of his allies must make a heal check (DC 15) to stop the bleeding.
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Ok, here's another idea. So, I've been thinking that fighter paradigm concepts are not compartmentalized as per 3.5/PF rules. However, cleric, ranger, wizard, and even sorcerer paradigms are compartmentalized -- if you want to be a necromancer, you play a wizard with the necromantic school specialization, if you want to play a cleric of destruction you pick the destruction domain, and so on and so forth.
But what of fighter specializations? At best, you just pick a feat build and run with it, many of those feats of which can be picked by any other class, with varying effectiveness (why, pray tell, would a ranger be better at TWF than a fighter who's spent multiple levels specializing in that very field?). I daresay that there are some builds that actually have to be built with specific feats, and that therefore if one wants to play such-and-such fighter paradigm, then they should just automatically get some feats that build up that archetype as they progress, and then allocate their bonus feats as they see fit.
So, let's say that there are some "builds" or "kits" or "specialties" or "disciplines" of fighter that give free feats that mesh nicely with the character concept. These would take away from some of the bonus feats, naturally, as some of the feats normally picked would be from the fighter bonus feat list. A useful point of comparison, though, would be the baseline fighter -- the fighter equivalent of the wizard's Universalist school specialization. Honestly, this particular build is in many ways deficient to other schools -- they can't prepare as many spells, and they don't get the cool bonuses each other school gets. But what they give up in terms of raw power, they gain in flexibility. So, if we have a system of "disciplines" for fighters, then the baseline discipline is the generalist "man-at-arms," which gets the same progression of feats as is normally listed.
So, different "disciplines" would have different synergetic bonuses from simply declaring that particular discipline when taking a level in fighter. I daresay that some of the disciplines already in this thread are simply A-one, and I'll use them as archetypes to build off of. Special thanks to anthony Valente and A Man In Black for helping bounce off ideas and developing thoughts towards this direction:
- Brawler -- a maneuver specialist; would be good in fighters pretty much exclusively vs. humanoids, but would be a real nice guy to have in a bar fight (Someone pull out a dagger? Well, Brak the Brawler can pry that dagger from his scrawny little fingers lickety-split! Now let's send him to the floor, then Unarmed Strike him into unconsciousness.)
- Weaponmaster -- a multi-weapon spec fighter; would be able to draw any of many types of weapons and be extremely useful at it (Let's see... my longsword's not working? Good thing I packed that +1 golem bane warhammer, and have weapon spec in it thanks to my class...) Builds in redundancy in weapon specs, which makes it more reliable when one's weapon isn't working.
- Warlord -- a leader of men and source of strength for his allies. Could be used to buff allies, as per 4E warlord. Haven't decided.
- Slayer -- a fighter specializing in killing a specific type of monster (i.e. Dragon Slayer, Undead Slayer, Giant Slayer, etc.)
- Guardian/Sentinel/Champion/Knight (name suggestions, folks?) -- a fighter specializing in defending and protecting his allies
- Samurai -- an imposing battlefield controller who frightens lesser opponents with his mere presence. Ideas can probably be lifted off of Complete Warrior samurai class.
- Mage Killer -- a fighter specialized in disrupting, disabling, and killing magic-users.
That seems like a pretty nice list to start off with. If these made it into a core or even a supplemental rulebook, that would give us 7 specialties -- 1 less than the wizard in the PFCR, 3 less than the sorcerer, and 26 less than the cleric. Considering all the different "fighting styles" that are folded into the fighter class, I reckon this is movement in the right direction.
Also note that many of suggested Disciplines listed above may have been variants or new core classes introduced in the past. I daresay that if these fighter rule variants come into play, then we can translate martial classes pretty easily into fighter Disciplines, much like new sorcerer bloodlines and cleric domains are released in every AP module or so. This is intended to add modularity, and therefore customizability.
What follows is the fighter I'm using in our homebrew campaign. A lot of it will seem over the top to people who pull their punches with the casters, or who think the Tome of Battle is "overpowered." However, I've gone out of my way to exclude things like the ability to fly, shoot energy balls, and other stuff people (including me) don't want them to have. This fighter supercedes the duelist and the cavalier, by selcting the appropriate talents.
FIGHTER
Full BAB, d10 HD, all good saves
4 skill points/level; class skills Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Survival.
Level ... Class Features
1 ... Fighter talent or bonus feat
2 ... Bonus feat
3 ... Fighter talent
4 ... Bonus feat or sneak attack 1d6
5 ... Fighter talent
6 ... Bonus feat
7 ... Fighter talent
8 ... Bonus feat or sneak attack +1d6
9 ... Fighter talent
10 ... Bonus feat
11 ... Advanced talent
12 ... Bonus feat or sneak attack +1d6
13 ... Advanced talent
14 ... Bonus feat
15 ... Advanced talent
16 ... Bonus feat or sneak attack +1d6
17 ... Advanced talent
18 ... Bonus feat
19 ... Advanced talent
20 ... Weapon mastery; bonus feat or sneak attack +1d6
Proficiencies:
You can choose to give up your exotic shield proficiency to gain Dodge as a bonus feat instead. You can also elect to give up your light and heavy shield proficiencies to gain Combat Expertise as a bonus feat instead. If you take either or both of these options, gaining levels in a class that normally offers proficiency in shields does not grant you those proficiencies unless you choose to “trade in” the corresponding bonus feats in order to receive them.
Canny Defense (Ex): You can choose to trade your medium and heavy armor proficiencies for the Canny Defense class feature. When wearing light or no armor, you add 1 point of your Intelligence bonus (if any) per fighter level as an insight bonus to Armor Class and CMD. If you are caught flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus, you also lose this bonus. This supercedes the duelist prestige class feature of the same name.
You may substitute your Wisdom bonus instead of your Intelligence bonus; once this choice is made, it cannot be changed.
FIGHTER TALENTS
Benefit: You gain a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. For every 3 levels in Fighter you possess, this bonus improves by an additional +1 (+3 at 3rd level, +4 at 6th, etc.). At 18th level, it is the equivalent of a permanent protection from spells effect, except that it is an extraordinary ability and cannot be dispelled.
Source: This talent supercedes the Hexblade class feature of the same name (Complete Warrior), and also the Occult Slayer’s “magical defense” prestige class feature.
ARMORED SKIN
Either from immersion in some magical liquid (perhaps the River Styx, as for Achilles in The Illiad, or the blood of a dragon, as for Siegfried in The Niebelungenlied)—or possibly simply from long and brutal training—your skin is as tough as armor.
Benefit: You gain a +2 natural armor bonus to AC.
Special: This talent can be selected multiple times. Each additional time, the bonus improves by +1.
ARMOR TRAINING
Prerequisites: Medium Armor Proficiency, Fighter level 3rd.
Benefit: Whenever you are wearing armor, you gain the following:
§ An additional +1 armor bonus to your armor class;
§ Reduction of the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0);
§ Reduction of the arcane spell failure chance (if applicable) by 5% (to a minimum of 10%);
§ Increase the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by your armor by 1; and
§ Damage reduction 1/-;.
Special: If you are actively using a light or heavy shield (not a buckler, animated shield, or shield spell), you gain your armor training bonus with the shield if no armor is worn. If using both armor and a shield, the benefits listed apply to both your armor and shield (i.e., they stack).
ARMOR TRAINING, IMPROVED
Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency; Armor Training.
Benefit: Your armor training benefits improve by 1 (i.e., the AC bonus and maximum Dexterity bonuses increases to +2 each, the armor check penalty is reduced by 2, the damage reduction improves to DR 2/-;, etc.).
Special: This talent can be selected multiple times. Each time, the benefits of your armor training improve by 1.
BRAVERY
Benefit: When subjected to a fear effect, the impact is lessened by one category. In other words, effects that normally apply the panicked condition make you frightened instead; conditions that normally apply the frightened condition leave you shaken instead; and you can shrug off effects that would normally leave another person shaken.
If you have at least 13 levels in fighter, you are totally immune to fear and fear effects.
Source: Suggested by the cavalier’s “unshakeable” and “fearless” class features in Green Ronin’s The Cavalier’s Handbook, by Robert J. Schwalb.
BROKEN SHIELD
Prerequisite: Vital Strike.
Benefit: Any creature damaged by your Vital Strike must succeed at a Reflex save (DC 14 + your Strength modifier) or be flat-footed until the start of his next turn. If the opponent cannot be caught flat-footed (because of Uncanny Dodge or a similar ability) the extra damage applies, but the flat-footed condition does not.
Source: Tome of Battle.
CHALLENGE
Benefit: Once per combat, you can challenge a single foe within sight as a swift action. Your melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of your challenge. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every three fighter levels thereafter. This extra damage is considered precision damage, is not multiplied on a critical hit, and does not apply to attacks that deal nonlethal damage.
Challenging a foe requires much of your concentration. Melee attacks made against you, except those made by the target of your challenge, treat you as if you were flanked. Such attacks receive a +2 flanking bonus. Improved uncanny dodge, and similar abilities, do not protect you from being flanked as the result of a challenge.
The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead, unconscious, or the combat ends.
Special: If you belong to a knightly order (q.v.), your challenge gains an additional effect.
Source: Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
CONTENTIOUS OPPORTUNITY
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: Any succussful attack of opportunity you make deals an additional +1d6 precision-based damage. This bonus damage increases by +1d6 per 4 fighter levels you possess, to a maximum of +6d6 at 20th level. This is similar to a rogue’s sneak attack, except the activating condition is different.
COUNTERSTROKE
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15+, base attack bonus +6, Improved Weapon Maneuvers.
Benefit: As a full-round action, roll a combat maneuver check against an opponent in melee with you. If successful, you parry all of his melee attacks until your next turn.
If you also have the Improved Forcing Maneuvers feat, the opponent cannot move from his current square if you succeed at the Counterstroke check.
Source: Monte Cook’s Collected Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press).
DEBILITATING STRIKE, IMPROVED (COMBAT)
Prerequisite: Improved Weapon Maneuvers.
Benefit: Any melee or ranged weapon or unarmed attack you make that deals damage also hampers the opponent struck for 1 round, forcing a –1 penalty to the victim’s attack rolls until your next turn. The effects of multiple hits do not stack; however, the penalty increases by an additional –1 per 6 fighter levels above the 1st you possess (i.e., –2 at 7th level, -3 at 13th level, and –4 at 19th level).
Source: Monte Cook’s Collected Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press).
DEFLECTION, ARMED
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: When using a light or one-handed piercing weapon, once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.
Special: This talent can be substituted for the Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows feats for the purpose of qualifying for another feat, such as Exceptional Deflection.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.” This talent also supercedes the duelist’s “Deflect Arrows” prestige class feature.
DETECT HOSTILE INTENT
A lifetime of strife has given you a sixth sense for when violence might erupt. Others are hard-pressed to hide hostile intent from you.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, Perception 4 ranks.
Benefit: As a standard action, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). This ability detects active aggression, as opposed to vigilance. You can make a Bluff check to sense motive as a free action against anyone within 30 feet of you.
Source: This is equivalent to the Pysichic Warrior power over the same name, from the d20 System Reference Document.
DODGE, AGILE
Prerequisites: Dex 13.
Benefit: When wearing light or no armor, and not using a shield, you gain a dodge bonus to AC of +1, +1 per 4 fighter levels you possess. Unlike other named bonuses, dodge bonuses stack.
Source: This simulates the monk’s scaling bonus to AC.
ENERGY RESISTANCE
Benefit: You gain resistance 5 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, force, positive energy, negative energy, or sonic attacks. For every 5 fighter levels you possess, this resistance increases by 5, to a maximum resistance of 25 at 20th level.
Special: You may choose this talent multiple times. Each time, choose a different energy type.
EVASION
Benefit: If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if your base movement speed is unimpaired. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of evasion.
IAIJUTSU FOCUS
Prerequisites: Dex 13, First Strike, Improved Initiative, Sleight of Hand 1 rank.
Benefit: The additional damage from your First Strike feat (q.v.) increases by +1d6 per 3 fighter levels you possess. This stacks with the additional damage from selecting the feat more than once.
Normal: The only way to increase First Strike damage is to select the feat multiple times.
KIAI SMITE
Benefit: Once per day, when you shout in combat (as a free action), you gain a bonus to your attack roll equal to your fighter level, to a maximum equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum +1) against a single opponent. You receive a bonus on damage equal to your fighter level against that opponent. The smite lasts until the designated opponent is vanquished or killed, or until the encounter ends.
Special: You may select this talent multiple times. Each time, you gain an additional use per day.
Source: This talent supercedes the Samurai class feature of the same name, from Complete Warrior.
KNIGHTLY BANNER
Prerequisites: Challenge, Knightly Order. You must also have a distinctive physical banner, such as a pennant or shield device.
Benefit: Your banner becomes a symbol of inspiration to your allies and companions. As long as your banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 10th level, and every five fighter levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by an additional +1.
Source: Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
KNIGHTLY ORDER
Prerequisite: Challenge.
Benefit: You have pledged yourself to a specific order of knighthood. The order grants you additional class skills, additional effects to your Challenge ability, and a special ability.
Special: Each order includes a number of edicts that its members must follow. If you violate any of these edicts, you lose all benefits gained from your order for 24 hours. The violation of an edict is subject to GM interpretation. You cannot change your order without undertaking a lengthy process to dedicate yourself to a new cause. When this choice is made, you immediately loses all of the benefits from the old order. You must then follow the edicts of your new order for one entire level without gaining any benefits from that order. Once accomplished, you gain all of the bonuses from the new order.
Source: Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
KNIGHT OF QUALITY
Prerequisite: Challenge, Knightly Order, fighter level 9th.
Benefit: You gain a 9th level ability based on your order of knighthood (see Knightly Orders, below).
Source: Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
METTLE
Benefit: If you make a successful Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally have a lesser effect on a save (such as any spell with a saving throw of Fortitude Partial), you instead completely negate the effect.
Source: This talent supercedes the Hexblade class feature of the same name (Complete Warrior), and also the Pious Templar prestige class feature.
MOUNT
Prerequisite: Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: You gain the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry you into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using your fighter level as your effective druid level. The creature must be one that you are capable of riding and is suitable as a mount, such as a boar, camel, dog, horse, pony, or wolf (depending on your size and level—boars and dogs are therefore not suitable until 4th level). Your mount does not gain the share spells special ability.
Should your mount die, you may find another mount to serve you after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time you gain a fighter level.
PACK MULE
Prerequisite: Endurance 1 rank.
Benefit: You ignore the effects of encumbrance from carrying medium and heavy loads. Encumbrance from armor is handled normally.
Normal: A medium load applies a +3 maximum Dex bonus, a –3 skills check penalty, and slows your speed as if wearing medium armor. A heavy load applies a +1 maximum Dex bonus, a –6 skills check penalty, and slows your speed as if wearing heavy armor (and prevents you from running).
PERSONAL WEAPON
Benefit: Choose a specific weapon (not a weapon category or type of weapon) you own, and with which you are proficient. When wielding that specific weapon, treat its enhancement bonus as 1 greater than is actually the case (a nonmagical weapon is +1 in your hands, a +1 weapon is +2, etc.) for all purposes. If the weapon is already magical, you can instead add a +1 eqivalent property (such as flaming). Once chosen, the property cannot be changed.
If your personal weapon is destroyed, you can select a different one after one week. The new weapon need not be of the same type as the previous one, as long as it is in your possession and you are proficient with it.
Special: You can select this talent multiple times. Each time, add an additional +1 equivelent. Also, each time you select this talent again, you can re-assign the weapon’s enhancement bonuses and/or properties as you see fit.
PRECISE STRIKE
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: You gain the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding your fighter level to damage rolls (maximum +10).
When making a precise strike, you cannot attack with a weapon in your other hand or use a shield. A precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.
Source: This talent supercedes the duelist’s class feature of the same name.
RAZOR STRIKE
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Make a single attack as a standard action. This attack is resolved as a touch attack, rather than as a standard attack.
Special: You cannot use this talent in conjunction with the Vital Strike feat.
Source: This talent approximates the emerald razor strike, from the Tome of Battle.
RESILIENT
Benefit: Effects that would normally cause unconsciousness merely stun you for 1 round (this does not render you immune to magical sleep effects, however, nor does it remove your need for sleep). Effects that would stun a normal person leave you dazed instead; effects that would normally cause the dazed condition merely dazzle you.
RIPOSTE
Benefit: You can make an attack of opportunity against any creature whose attack you successfully parry (see combat rules), so long as the creature you are attacking is within reach.
Source: Art of the Duel (Sinister Adventures LLC).
SECOND WIND
Benefit: You can recover a number of hit points per day equal to your fighter class level x your Constitution modifier. You can divide this healing however you see fit, but each use requires a swift action. This talent cannot increase your hit points beyond your full normal total.
SHUFFLE
Benefit: Once per round, you can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action, even if you have already taken a 5-ft. step or other move that round. You may select this talent only once.
SOLO TACTICS
Prerequisite: At least one tactical feat (q.v.).
Benefit: All of your allies are treated as if they possess the same tactical feats as the you do for the purpose of determining if you receive a bonus from your tactical feats. Your allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the tactical feat for you to receive the listed bonus.
If you have at least 11 levels in fighter, then your allies whose positioning and tactics meet the prerequisites also receive the benefits of any tactical feats you possess.
Source: Inquisitor/Cavalier’s class feature of the same name, from the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
STALWART
Prerequisites: Endurance 5 ranks.
Benefit: You suffer no penalties when fatigued. If you become exhausted, you suffer penalties as if fatigued instead.
STRONG STOMACH
The constant sight and stench of blood has left you inured to any hint of queasiness.
Prerequisites: Endurance 5 ranks.
Benefit: You are immune to any effect that would apply the Sickened condition to a normal person. If you succumb to an effect that normally causes nausea, you are sickened instead.
THREAT ASSESSMENT
Prerequisites: Knowledge (warfare) 1 rank, Perception 1 rank.
Benefit: After studying a creature within 60 ft. for 1 round, you can tell by its stance and the way it moves how skilled in combat it is likely to be:
Base Attack Bonus Assessment
+0 to +5 Untrained or poorly-skilled
+6 to +10 Competent and well-trained
+11 to +15 Extremely experienced
+16 to +20 Awesomely skilled
+21 or higher Epic-level
You can also assess the type of threat the primary type of threat it presents (magical, melee, ranged, supernatural).
Special: A creature intentionally concealing its prowess is entitled to a Bluff check; in that event, you must succeed at an opposed Perception check to learn the information given. Any creature in disguise with at least one rank in Perform (acting) is assumed to be Bluffing as to its prowess, in accordance with its assumed roll.
UNCANNY DODGE
Benefit: You can react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so. You cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. You still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. You can still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against you.
If you already have uncanny dodge from a different class, you automatically gain improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
UNCANNY DODGE, IMPROVED
Prerequisite: Uncanny Dodge.
Benefit: You can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack you by flanking you, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than you have levels in the class that granted this ability.
You must have the Uncanny Dodge talent to select Improved Uncanny Dodge. If you already have uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank you.
THICKET OF BLADES
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, No Retreat, fighter level 5th.
Benefit: Any enemy you threaten that takes any movement, including a 5-ft. step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you.
Normal: 5-ft. steps do not provoke attacks of opportunity; nor does the withdraw action.
Source: Tome of Battle.
VIGOR
Benefit: Once per day, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to your fighter level. If not lost to damage before then, they last up to 1 hour per fighter level.
WEAPON APTITUDE
Benefit: Each morning, you can choose to spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies to a specific weapon (such as the Weapon Focus feat). You must have the newly-designated weapon available during your practice session in order to make this change. You can transfer the weapon training fighter talent in this manner to a new group, provided you have at least one weapon from the new group available during practice.
You can adjust any number of your feats or talents in this way, and you need not adjust them all in the same way. However, you can’t change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet a prerequisite. For example, if you have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with the longsword, you could not transfer either one of them alone to the heavy mace (for example), without changing the other as well.
Source: This talent is similar to the Warblade class feature of the same name, from the Tome of Battle.
WEAPON FAMILIARITY
You have trained with so many types of weapons that you learn the use of new ones as a second nature, simply by handling them.
Benefit: You are proficient with all exotic weapons. Even if exposed to a totally unfamiliar weapon from a completely different technology level, for example, you can become proficient with it after handling it for one round.
Special: If you have at least 4 levels of fighter and you have the Weapon Familiarity talent, you gain Catch Off-Guard as a bonus feat (in addition to your normal fighter bonus feats).
WEAPON MASTER
Benefit: As a swift action, you gain the use of one combat feat whose prerequisites you meet. You may use this ability a number of rounds per day equal to your fighter level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive and you can change the feat chosen each time you use this ability.
Source: Cleric’s War domain power.
WEAPON TRAINING
Benefit: Choose one weapons group (e.g., light blades, heavy blades, crossbows, etc.), as listed below. You gain a +1 competence bonus to attacks with these weapons per 4 fighter levels you possess (maximum +5 at 20th level); this bonus also appplies to the CMB for combat maneuvers made with these weapons, and to your CMD against maneuvers made by these weapons wielded by others.
You also receive a damage bonus with these weapons equal to half your fighter class level.
Special: This talent can be selected multiple times. Each time, choose a different weapons group.
ZEN WARRIOR
Benefit: You may apply your Wisdom bonus (if any) as an insight bonus to all weapon attack rolls, to a maximum bonus equal to your fighter level.
ADVANCED TALENTS
Benefit: Choose one physical ability score. You gain a +1 inherent bonus to that attribute, as if from a manual of gainful exercise or similar tome.
Special: You can select this talent multiple times. Each time, you may select a new attribute or increase an existing inherent bonus by +1. No inherent bonus from any source or combination of sources may exceed +5.
AURA OF STABILITY
Benefit: You gain the effects of a permanent dimensional anchor, which you can lower or reinstate as a move action. While this ability is active, any creature you grapple is likewise affected.
Source: Planar Handbook.
AVATAR OF MIGHT
Prerequisites: Strength 19, Power Attack, Vital Strike, fighter level 17th.
Benefit: When using the full attack action, you gain a damage bonus pool equal to twice your fighter level that you can use each round to supplement your individual damage rolls. Decide how you are going to divide this resource among your attacks before you make your attack rolls. For example, if you are a 16th level, you could add +8 damage to each attack, +23 damage to one attack and +3 damage to each of the other three, +32 damage to one attack and nothing to the others, etc.
Special: If you trade one or more iterative attacks for movement, you lose bonus damage from your pool in proportion to the number of iterative attacks you have (for example, a 16th level fighter trading one iterative attack for movement would have a bonus damage pool of +24 instead of +32).
Source: This talent supercedes the feat of the same name from Monte Cook’s Collected Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press).
BLINDING SPEED
Benefit: You can act as if hasted for 1 round per day per 2 fighter levels you possess. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds. Activating this power is a free action.
Special: You can gain this talent multiple times. Each time you take the talent, it grants an additional number of daily rounds of use equal to half your fighter level.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
DEFLECTION, EXCEPTIONAL
Prerequisites: Armed Deflection talent, or Deflect Arrows or Block Arrow feat.
Benefit: You can deflect any ranged attacks (including spells that require ranged touch attacks) as if they were arrows.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
DIAMOND SOUL
Prerequisite: Arcane Resistance talent.
Benefit: You gain spell resistance against hostile spells equal to 12 + your fighter level. In order to affect you with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds your spell resistance.
DIRE CHARGE
Prerequisite: Improved Initiative.
Benefit: If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent charged.
Normal: Without this talent, you may only make a single attack as part of a charge.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
DISPELLING STRIKE
Benefit: Once per day, you can attempt a dispelling attack with one melee attack. If you hit, you deal normal damage and the target is affected by a targeted greater dispel magic. The caster level for this ability is equal to your fighter level. If you target a creature or object with no spells active, the use of the ability is wasted. For every 4 fighter levels you possess beyond the 11th, you can use this ability an additional time per day (e.g., 2/day at 15th, and 3/day at 19th level).
Source: This talent supercedes the Suel Archanomach prestige class feature of the same name, from Complete Arcane.
ELABORATE DEFENSE
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When using the Combat Expertise feat in melee combat, the dodge bonus to AC is equal to twice the penalty you take to your attack rolls (+2, +2 per 4 points of BAB). If using the total defense action, the bonus to AC is +3, +3 per 4 points of BAB.
Special: If you are also actively using a shield, remember that a doubled doubling results in a triple (+3, +3 per 4 points of BAB).
Source: This talent supercedes the duelist prestige class feature of the same name. It has been altered somewhat to use the same mechanics as fighting defensively and Combat Expertise.
EVASION, IMPROVED
Prerequisite: Evasion
Benenfit: Your evasion ability improves. You still take no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth you take only half damage on a failed save. A helpless fighter does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
EXECUTIONER
Benefit: You can perform a coup de grâce against a stunned opponent as if he or she were helpless.
Special: If you have at least 16 levels in fighter, you can also perform a coup de grâce against a dazed opponent as if he or she were helpless.
Normal: A coup de grâce can be performed only against a helpless creature.
FIGHTING SPIRIT
Your fighting spirit enables you to push your body beyond the normal limits of endurance.
Benefit: You no longer automatically fail saving throws on a roll of 1. You still fail a save if your total result fails to equal or beat the DC.
Source: This talent supercedes the Knight’s “Impetuous Endurance” class feature, from the Player’s Handbook II.
FLURRY
Prerequisite: Weapon Training.
Benefit: When you use a full attack action with any weapon for which you have Weapon Training, you gain one additional attack at your highest attack bonus. That attack and all other attacks you make in the current round take a –2 penalty.
Special: This talent cannot be used in conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Source: This talent supercedes the Slashing Flurry feat from the Player’s Handbook II, and also the Bladesinger’s “Song of Fury” prestige class feature, from Complete Warrior.
FOEBANE
Benefit: Choose one creature type from the Ranger “favored enemies” table. All attacks against creatures of that type are made as if you were wielding a bane weapon of the appropriate type. This is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled, and represents your training against that creature type; it is not a function or property of your weapon. This benefit therefore applies even when using nonmagical weapons or unarmed strikes.
FORTIFICATION
Prerequisites: Armor training, improved armor training.
Benefit: When you wear heavy armor there is a 25% chance that any critical hit or sneak attack against you is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Special: You can select this talent multiple times. Each time, your fortification impoves by an additional 25%.
Source: Dragon magazine #355.
GRIM DETERMINATION
Prerequisites: Endurance 10 ranks, Stalwart.
Benefit: You are immune to the effects of exhaustion and fatigue.
HURRICANE ATTACK
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, base attack bonus +15.
Benefit: When using the Whirlwind Attack feat, as a full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make two melee attacks (at your full attack bonus +4) against each opponent within reach.
Source: This talent mimics the adamantine hurricane strike, from the Tome of Battle.
IMPROVED TALENT
Prerequisite: Armored Skin, Improved Armor Training, or Personal Weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of the prerequisite talents that you have. You gain improvement to the talent as if you had chosen it two more times (i.e., your natural armor bonus for Armored Skin improves by +2, or your Personal Weapon enhancement bonus improves by +2, etc.).
INTERCEPT BLOW
Benefit: Once per round, you can choose for any single attack striking an adjacent ally to automatically hit you instead.
Special: You can select this talent multiple times. Each time, you can intercept one additional blow per round.
Source: This talent supercedes the combat rite of the same name, from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved (Malhavoc Press).
INTERRUPT ACTION
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Disruptive.
Benefit: In place of a held attack, you can attempt to interfere with an enemy’s actions – throwing sand in his eyes, knocking aside his hand as he completes a spellcasting gesture, or whatever. By succeeding at a touch attack against an opponent within reach, or a ranged touch attack against an opponent within 30 ft., you can roll against your Combat Maneuver Bonus against that opponent. If the result exceeds the opponent’s CMD, the opponent’s action is wasted (spells, magic item charges, or daily uses are lost harmlessly).
KNIGHTLY PARAGON
Prerequisite: Challenge, Knightly Order, Knight of Quality, fighter level 15th.
Benefit: You gain an advanced ability based on your order of knighthood (see Knightly Orders, below).
Source: Pathfinder RPG Advanced Players Guide playtest.
MOUNTAIN HAMMER
Prerequisites: Vital Strike feat.
Benefit: When you execute a Vital Strike, the bonus damage is doubled, and you automatically ignore any hardness or damage reduction the target possesses.
Source: Tome of Battle.
ONSLAUGHT OF BLOWS
Benefit: The penalty for your third iterative attack, if applicable, is reduced by 5. For example, an 11th level fighter with this talent would attack at +16/+11/+11, rather than at +16/+11/+6.
Special: The effects of this talent overlap with (do not stack with) those of the Multiattack feat, so an 11th level fighter with this talent and that feat would attack at +16/+14/+11, not +16/+14/+14.
Normal: Your third iterative attack in a round is made at a –10 penalty.
ONSLAUGHT OF BLOWS, IMPROVED
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +16, Onslaught of Blows.
Benefit: The penalty for your fourth iterative attack, if applicable, is reduced by 10. For example, a 17th level fighter with this talent would attack at +17/+12/+12/+12, rather than at +17/+12/+7/+2.
Special: The effects of this talent overlap with (do not stack with) those of the Multiattack feat, so a 17th level fighter with this talent and that feat would attack at +17/+15/+12/+12, not +17/+15/+15/+15.
Normal: Your fourth iterative attack in a round is made at a –15 penalty.
OPPORTUNIST
Benefit: Once per round, you can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. Even a character with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the Opportunist talent more than once per round.
OVEREXERTION
Benefit: As a standard action, select one ability score you would like to boost, and increase it by the same amount that you decrease one or more other scores. All score decreases are treated as a special form of ability damage, called ability burn, which cannot be magically or psionically healed—it goes away only through natural healing.
You can boost your Strength, Dexterity or Constitution score by an amount equal to your fighter level (or any lesser amount), assuming you can afford to burn your other ability scores to such an extent.
After 1 round per fighter level, your ability boost ends, but your ability burn remains until it is healed naturally.
Source: This is equivalent to the Pysichic Warrior’s psychofeedback power, from the d20 System Reference Document.
PARRY, MANTICORE
Benefit: When you successfully parry an attack against you with a held action (see combat rules), you can bat aside the blow, causing it to target an adjacent enemy other than your attacker. Use the results of the original attack roll to determine whether it hits the new target.
Source: Tome of Battle.
PIERCE THE FOG OF WAR
Prerequisite: Blind-Fight feat.
Benefit: Through superior tactical reasoning, you deduce the true locations of your enemies. You ignore all concealment when attacking, including invisibility, displacement, and actual fog. Furthermore, you are able to deduce the true caster from the images when facing an opponent under a mirror image spell, and can estimate when and where a blinking opponent will appear (negating that spell’s usual miss chance). By observing a projected image, you can deduce the location of the image’s caster.
PIERCE MAGICAL PROTECTION
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack that ignores any bonuses to Armor Class granted by spells (including spell trigger or spell completion effects created by magic items such as wands or potions). If you deal damage to your opponent, you also instantly and automatically dispel all that opponent's spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to Armor Class.
Source: Complete Arcane.
PROWESS, EPIC
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attacks.
Special: You can gain this advanced talent multiple times; its effects stack.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
REND, GIRALLON
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend.
Benefit: You increase the base damage of your Two-Weapon Rend feat by +1d10 damage per additional hit after the first you make against the same opponent this round. For example, if you are 11th level and hit an opponent 6 times, your Two-Weapon Rend feat deals damage equal to 6d10 + 1½ times your Strength bonus.
Source: Tome of Battle.
ROBILAR'S GAMBIT
By offering Robilar's Gambit, you absorb damage to place yourself in an advantageous position. This dangerous sacrifice is not for the unfit or the unwise, for one failed retaliatory strike can undo the advantage gained. Lord Robilar, a rash and impetuous fighter, gained fame using this technique against his enemies.
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Responsive Duelist.
Benefit: At the start of your action, you can adopt a fighting stance that exposes you to harm but allows you to take advantage of your opponents' exposed defenses as they reach in to attack you. Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.
Normal: Opponents do not provoke attacks of opportunity by attacking. Further, when an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity, you resolve your attack before he completes the action that provoked the attack of opportunity.
Source: Player’s Handbook II.
SLICE THROUGH WARDINGS
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus feat or Weapon Training talent.
Benefit: Once per day per fighter level, you can ignore all magic-based protections (Armor Class bonuses, defensive field, and so on) on a foe in a single attack made with a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus and/or Weapon Training. You cannot use this ability to ignore spells or effects that take effect when a foe is attacked, such as fire shield. You must declare your use of this ability before making the attack.
Source: This talent supercedes the Mage Blade class feature of the same name, from Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved (Malhavoc Press).
SNEAK ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY
Prerequisites: Sneak attack, Opportunist.
Benefit: Any attack of opportunity you make is automatically considered a sneak attack. This sneak attack damage stacks with the additional damage from the Contentious Opportunity talent (q.v.), if applicable.
STORM OF THROWS
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may throw a light weapon at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet. All light weapons thrown need not be the same type.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
SWARM OF ARROWS
Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (type of bow used).
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may fire an arrow at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet.
Source: 3.5 edition System Reference Document, “Epic Feats.”
THREAT ZONE
Prerequisite: Dodge feat, Acrobatics 1 rank.
Benefit: Through training, your awareness and mobility in a small area have expanded considerably. The area you threaten increases by 5 ft. in all directions. This does not mean that the length of your weapon or arms increases; instead, it assumes that you are able to instantaneously move out of your square in order to make an attack of opportunity in the expanded area (and then automatically return to your square upon completion of the attack). This movement does not count against any movement you are normally entitled to, but any obstruction to that movement also obstructs your threat zone. This free movement does not provoke attacks of opportunities if your threat area overlaps with area that one or more opponents threaten.
Special: This advanced talent can be taken more than once; the effects stack. Each time it is selected, the requisite number of ranks in Acrobatics increases by 2.
Niiiice. I'm sure there's at least a few things I want to steal for a Kensai discipline to work into my framework above :O
Brawler fighter variant. May try to work it into my "disciplines" framework.
I've still got to figure out how to build a template for disciplines. Think I'll sacrifice the armor & weapon training and bravery bonuses for various discipline-specific fluff.
excellent bunch of ideas, and the pulling them together is great too. I am one who thinks many powers are overpowered but it gets me thinking and I will use some I am sure
excellent bunch of ideas, and the pulling them together is great too. I am one who thinks many powers are overpowered but it gets me thinking and I will use some I am sure
Why, thanky thanky, Werecorpse! That's the whole point -- take what looks good, and leave the rest. I doubt we'll ever come up with one fighter build that pleases everyone. I just try to make things as modular as possible, so you can leave them out when you don't like them.
I dig your discipline idea, Boxy. I'm a big fan of what they've done with sorcerers and think the fighter could use a bit of the same treatment. I'd probably pull all the nonfeat abilities in favor of discipline-specific ones; you could get pretty wild with all that freed up character power.
Before getting too overboard on setting-specific stuff like samurai, I'd probably outline a strict list of 4 or 5 to work out first; Perhaps brawler, fencer, guardian, warlord, and weapon master. Actually, if I get some time, I'll look into spec'ing those out myself.
I also like the techniques and triumph points scheme. It's limited enough in scope to not overbalance the fighter, so it really could slot into a game anywhere and not be too much of a danger. Some of the specific techniques are probably a bit too powerful, but that sort of thing is cake to fix.
What follows is the fighter I'm using in our homebrew campaign. A lot of it will seem over the top to people who pull their punches with the casters, or who think the Tome of Battle is "overpowered." However, I've gone out of my way to exclude things like the ability to fly, shoot energy balls, and other stuff people (including me) don't want them to have. This fighter supercedes the duelist and the cavalier, by selcting the appropriate talents.
I'd say your class supercedes pretty much every class that doesn't cast spells.
On one hand, its a simple, effective system for incorporating several fighter subclasses into one. On the other hand, I have to call hella shenanigans on power level. The class looks like the sort of thing I'd make a sinister cult all take levels in, and the party would learn to hate and fear them like no other. There are way too many fighter talents that improve without effort past initial selection, and many are just too good to start with - mount? Second wind? Diamond soul? Epic feats? Not to mention a dozen ridiculous ability interactions like full-sneak-attack-damage attacks of opportunity on anyone making any move adjacent to you. That sort of interaction normally takes some very clever and dedicated prestige class shenanigans, but here it's all laid out in one class, and takes aught but a couple talents and a feat or two.
In short, I wouldn't let this class within a mile of any game I ran. If it works for you, that's cool, but I can't fathom why anyone would want to play a barbarian, ranger, monk, or rogue when this guy is an option.
What follows is the fighter I'm using in our homebrew campaign. A lot of it will seem over the top to people who pull their punches with the casters, or who think the Tome of Battle is "overpowered." However, I've gone out of my way to exclude things like the ability to fly, shoot energy balls, and other stuff people (including me) don't want them to have. This fighter supercedes the duelist and the cavalier, by selcting the appropriate talents.
I'm pretty impressed with what you have here. I like how it adds customization similar to that of a spellcaster choosing his specialty or focus. I'm curious if you have homebrew versions of any of the other non-casting classes, cause I'd really like to see them.
I'd say your class supercedes pretty much every class that doesn't cast spells.
It probably would, except that I also rewrote the ranger, the barbarian, the monk, and the bard. All classes in our homebrew game are now on more or less even footing, power-wise. I've also rewritten the feats and the basic combat rules. The end result is that we play a game that somewhat resembles Pathfinder.
I'm curious if you have homebrew versions of any of the other non-casting classes, cause I'd really like to see them.
Like I said, I've rewritten the other martial and "random junk" classes as well. I'd be willing to email them if you like, but I want to minimize public posting, because I incorporate WotC and other 3rd party material and don't want anyone to think there's any sort of copyright challenge or violation occurring (NOTE: all revisions are strictly nonprofit and for personal use only!).
Not to mention a dozen ridiculous ability interactions like full-sneak-attack-damage attacks of opportunity on anyone making any move adjacent to you. That sort of interaction normally takes some very clever and dedicated prestige class shenanigans, but here it's all laid out in one class, and takes aught but a couple talents and a feat or two.That was the express intent. Casters get all these sorts of abilties neatly packaged as spells -- why should they have all the fun at higher levels?
P.S. The combo you mention would require most of the fighter's talents and half his bonus feats. If he wants to be that hyper-specialized, I see no reason not to allow it.
Think fighters could use a buff in the Saves department, but not to the point of giving them all Good saves? Then try out the new and improved Fair save progression!
The save progressions are given by the following formula:
Good: 2 + (level) / 2
Fair: 1 + (level) * 2/5
Bad: 0 + (level) / 3
So, a Fair save progression would look like this:
2 - +1
3 - +2
4 - +2
5 - +3
6 - +3
7 - +3
8 - +4
9 - +4
10 - +5
11 - +5
12 - +5
13 - +6
14 - +6
15 - +7
16 - +7
17 - +7
18 - +8
19 - +8
20 - +9
You could choose to boost either Ref or Will up to a "Fair" progression -- either combat has honed his reflexes, but not to that of a rogue or other "Good" progression, or combat has hardened his mind to resist influence, but not to the point of the wizard's mental discipline.
As with any suggestions, you can take it or leave it as-is. If you feel that the Fighter needs some more defenses to be an unassailable fortress, then this might be right up your alley.
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A Man In Black made an interesting suggestion, that we render the fighter's Armor Training, Weapon Training, and Bravery class features as an optional feature. It makes the most sense to me to list it as a Technique -- something learned by a fighter as he progresses from a wee lad to a fighting man of legend.
So, we could have passive fighter techniques, as well as active ones (those that burn through triumph points). I'm all in favor of this, as this leads to greater customizability in the exclusive fighter club. So, without further ado, I add them as optional "techniques" that a fighter can take.
We may want to add a "Master Technique" section available only at the higher levels: 18, 19, and 20. Things like "Weapon Mastery" and "Armor Mastery would go there, as well as the following:
Fearless -- After seeing the horrors of combat all his life, the fighter has become immune to fear attacks.
Perfect Stance -- After years of training, the fighter has become immune to most combat maneuvers. He cannot be tripped, bull rushed, overrun, or disarmed. He may still be grappled, however, and enemies may still make sunder attempts against his equipment.
So, things like these would be counted as a "capstone power," for example. Since the fighter represents pretty much an infinite amount of fighting styles, then we should have pretty much an infinite amount of cool options for him to take!
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Now, let's see if we can't come up with some sort of table that can describe a fighter's megaawesomecool options.
2 - Bonus Feat
3 - Triumph Pool, Technique
4 - Weapon Specialization, Bonus Feat
5 - Technique
6 - Disruptive
7 - Technique
8 - Greater Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat
9 - Technique
10 - Spellbreaker
11 - Advanced Techniques, Technique
12 - Penetrating Strike, Bonus Feat
13 - Technique
14 - Greater Weapon Specialization
15 - Technique
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike, Bonus Feat
17 - Technique
18 - Master Techniques, Technique
19 - Technique
20 - Technique, Bonus Feat
The free feats seem useful and something that only fighters can do, and that they would pretty much take them whether or not they had the option. So, I turned them into class features, but still gave some Bonus Feats to play with. Fighters are pretty versatile, so they say!
A specialist fighter has a series of techniques taught to him by his specialty, and on top of that he still gets some free techniques from time to time. This is because a generalist fighter needs to be flexible, and doesn't necessarily get synergetic bonuses from specializing in that particular field.
So, a specialist fighter would take the "technique" trees above, and change them only in this way:
3 - Free Technique
5 - Specialist Technique, Free Technique
7 - Free Technique
9 - Specialist Technique
(advanced level)
11 - Specialist Technique, Free Technique
13 - specialist Technique
15 - Specialist Technique
17 - Free Technique
(master level)
18 - Specialist Technique
19 - Free Technique
20 - Specialist Technique
This would give a specialist fighter 3 specialist techniques and 3 free techniques in the "basic" tier, 3 specialist and 2 free techniques in the "advanced" tier, and 2 specialist and 1 free technique in the "master" tier. That's 13 total techniques for the specialist and 10 for the generalist, which seemeth fair to me.
This means that you can design specialist techniques for the fighter disciplines -- say, a kiai strike for a kensai, or a Frightful Presence for a samurai, or an Enlarge Person effect for a magically-inspired fighter variant. Additionally, if a feat sounds more appropriate for a particular class, then replace it with one of the bonus feats listed in the fighter class description above. For example, improved trip / improved grapple sounds like it would be more appropriate for a Brawler.
Interesting ideas - well done! I don't have a lot to say on the subject, so probably won't post much, but will keep an eye on this thread.
We're pretty much happy with the fighter as it stands in Pathfinder, having just made a couple of little changes. One thing I'd like to share, is our idea of the "Warrior of the World".
Basically, these are additional weapon training groups, sorted by region/culture, as opposed to physical similarities of the weapons. We use these (admittedly slightly more powerful than standard) options along side the regular options, to increase world building. You can also, as a DM, reward fighter players who roleplay well with a bonus group. They also make good sense for some PrC, e.g. arcane archer can change from the race requirement of Elf, to the Elf racial weapon group. YMMV on the groupings, as they're based on our homebrew list of races and includes firearms, etc. Without further ado - get ready to fight like a real Dwarf!
Archer: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
Artilery: ballista, battering ram, catapult, siege tower and trebuchet.
Centaur: centaur lance, falchion, heavy lance, longbow, light lance, scimitar, shortbow and spiked shield.
Dwarf: battleaxe, dwarven urgrosh, greataxe, handaxe, heavy crossbow, light hammer, throwing axe and warhammer.
Dromite: dromite war spade, heavy pick, light pick and sling.
Elf: dagger, elven curve blade, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword.
Gladiator: gauntlet, net, shortsword, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, trident and unarmed strike.
Gnome: heavy pick, gnome hooked hammer, light pick, matchlock pistol, matchlock rifle, repeating heavy crossbow and repeating light crossbow.
Gunner: blunderbuss, flintlock pistol, flintlock rifle, matchlock pistol, matchlock rifle and repeating flintlock rifle.
Hunter: bolas, composite shortbow, dagger, longspear, net, shortbow and shortspear.
Inquisitor: bolas, dagger, dart, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, net, quarterstaff and unarmed strike.
Knight: flail, heavy mace, heavy pick, heavy lance, light lance, longsword and morning star.
Militia: heavy crossbow, light crossbow, longspear, longsword, shortsword and spear.
Mongol: catapult, composite shortbow, heavy lance, javelin, light lance, shortbow, shortsword and spear.
Ninja: blowgun, dagger, nunchaku, sai, shortbow and shortsword.
Noble: dagger, flintlock pistol, flintlock rifle, rapier and unarmed strike.
Orc: falchion, greataxe, greatclub, greatsword, orc double axe, unarmed strike and warhammer.
Samurai: bastardsword, longbow, longspear, shortsword and unarmed strike.
Savage: blowgun, bolas, handaxe, javelin, net, sling and throwing axe.
Peace,
tfad
Howdy ho, fighter fans!
Mok has let me link to his Quadratic Fighter thread, where he suggests that fighters should have somewhere around 60 feats, plus fighter talents, to be on par with wizards. This is a deeper exploration of the old "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" problem, where in previous editions fighters would gain power in a linear fashion, but that wizards' power level would grow faster and faster, in quadratic fashion.
This whole debacle got me thinking. Imagine that for each spell slot a wizard gains, that you call it either a "trait" or a "feat." By tenth level, a wizard has sixteen such "feats" (more than a fighter will ever have simply due to his class), and by twentieth level a wizard has something along the order of 40 such feats/traits/whatever you want to call them.
This still doesn't take into account that the fighter feats tend not to scale up as levels progress, while many wizard spells do. Compare with me for a minute Dodge (a pretty solid first-level feat) and Magic Missile (a very reliable first-level spell). Dodge only gives a +1 bonus to AC, while Magic Missile at first level does 1d4+1 damage (2-5 damage), but by 9th level Dodge still only gives a +1 to AC, but Magic Missile now deals 5d4+5 (10-25 damage).
So, what does that mean for us? Well, what I would say is that fighters need a whole lot more options within combat. Fighters should be artists working in steel and flesh, melding them and manipulating them to fulfill his goals, just as wizards manipulate the powers of the cosmos. It is simply a matter of medium the particular war-artist chooses to work in, not the relative power levels. I daresay that fighters need a heck of a lot more options -- maybe as many options as wizards have spells, but doing things like switching opponents, using enemies as human shields, temporary buffs, and so on and so forth, which are extraordinary-specific rather than supernatural-specific.
So, they need new "techniques" which they learn per level, some of which are at-will but many of which consume triumph points, as per detailed above. I'd like to look to use the same progression of known techniques as the sorcerer's spells known -- it represents how much a person can use in the heat of combat as a combination of repeated training and personal insight and creativity.
So, here's the "technique progression" that I might choose:
02 - 2
03 - 3
04 - 4
05 - 6
06 - 7
07 - 10
08 - 11
09 - 14
10 - 15
11 - 19
12 - 19 / 1
13 - 21 / 2
14 - 21 / 3
15 - 22 / 5
16 - 22 / 6
17 - 22 / 8
18 - 22 / 8 / 1
19 - 22 / 9 / 2
20 - 22 / 9 / 3
The first number listed is for "basic techniques," which are the only techniques available until level 10. The second number listed is "advanced techniques," and the third is "master techniques" which are available starting at 18th level.
Edit:
Interesting ideas - well done! I don't have a lot to say on the subject, so probably won't post much, but will keep an eye on this thread.
Thanky thanky! I'm just throwing out ideas that other people might find useful.
We're pretty much happy with the fighter as it stands in Pathfinder, having just made a couple of little changes. One thing I'd like to share, is our idea of the "Warrior of the World".
Err, is this the royal "we," the local Friday-night gaming "we," the Paizo "we," or the evil galactic overlords "we"?
Just curious :D
Compare with me for a minute Dodge (a pretty solid first-level feat) and Magic Missile (a very reliable first-level spell). Dodge only gives a +1 bonus to AC, while Magic Missile at first level does 1d4+1 damage (2-5 damage), but by 9th level Dodge still only gives a +1 to AC, but Magic Missile now deals 5d4+5 (10-25 damage).
To be quite fair, one might note that a +1 dodge bonus to AC is worth about the same at 9th level as at 1st level, since attack bonuses and AC tend to scale at roughly the same rate. 1d4+1 damage, however, is worth nowhere near as much at 9th level as at first.
That said, the linear fighter/quadratic wizard problem is an old one, and the above is not true of all feats (Weapon Specialization being a big one that does decrease in worth over time). Pathfinder's weapon training helped some with this.
I'd say give it four skills a level, a couple more class skills (Acrobatics perhaps), and otherwise keep Pathfinder fighter as written. A medium-progression Will and Reflex save might be given if you use that houserule (and as such have also other classes' saves), but Good for either would be over the top.
Err, is this the royal "we," the local Friday-night gaming "we," the Paizo "we," or the evil galactic overlords "we"?
LOL - "We" as in "I'm speaking for my gaming group, none of us can afford the new Nintendo, and I'm a SEGA kinda guy anyway."
Hope that clears it up - I'm off to check on the Quadratic Fighter thread, thanks.
Peace,
tfad
We've tried using a straight PF fighter with the TOB manuvere progression for warbade added on. Access was retricted to Diamond mind, Iron Heart and Setting Sun schools. Worked rather nicely.
Sounds like a good start, and certainly a step down from full ToB for those who think that most of it is over-the-top. However, none of it's OGL, so any suggestions for Pathfinder from it may have to be nerfed or genericized.
Why perform (oratory), by the way? I'm curious, it hardly seems the obvious choice if you're going to expand the Fighter skill list.
To be quite fair, one might note that a +1 dodge bonus to AC is worth about the same at 9th level as at 1st level, since attack bonuses and AC tend to scale at roughly the same rate. 1d4+1 damage, however, is worth nowhere near as much at 9th level as at first.
This is true. However, at 18th level, wizards have access to spells that allow them to instant-kill everyone in a thirty-foot radius. I daresay that fighters don't have any remotely similar "crowning moment of awesome" options, and that is sad to me.
I'd say give it four skills a level, a couple more class skills (Acrobatics perhaps), and otherwise keep Pathfinder fighter as written. A medium-progression Will and Reflex save might be given if you use that houserule (and as such have also other classes' saves), but Good for either would be over the top.
I'd say that's a fair compromise, but I personally don't think that's enough. As I noted in the OP, Your Mileage May Vary, and there are plenty of DMs out there who think that the fighter needs a more drastic redressing.
I think that as of now, I'd add the ones I listed above (Diplomacy, Perform (oratory)) and Acrobatics, Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. I can imagine a fighter naturally training into any of these skills as part of training to be a knight or a brawler.
Why perform (oratory), by the way? I'm curious, it hardly seems the obvious choice if you're going to expand the Fighter skill list.
Seven words: "One more into the breach, dear friends!"
It's supposed to fit in with the leader of men archetype. Just about any legendary or historical leader worth his fighting chops (Alexander the Great, Arjuna, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus, Themistocles, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Barbarossa, King Arthur, Gawain, Aragorn, El Cid, Paladin) could rouse his men into a fevered pitch using lots o' them pretty words thar, even inspire them to fight to the death for him. Heck, in a very real sense oratory was what kept armies together and kept them from looting and pillaging the realms instead. On top of that, the bardic tradition of knights and chivalry means that the most notable fighting men of European lore are those who also wrote poetry and wooed fair maidens.
If a homeless guy with a lute wandering the countryside could raise and support an army better than a fighter, then there's something wrong with fighters as a class.
To be quite fair, one might note that a +1 dodge bonus to AC is worth about the same at 9th level as at 1st level, since attack bonuses and AC tend to scale at roughly the same rate. 1d4+1 damage, however, is worth nowhere near as much at 9th level as at first.This is true. However, at 18th level, wizards have access to spells that allow them to instant-kill everyone in a thirty-foot radius. I daresay that fighters don't have any remotely similar "crowning moment of awesome" options, and that is sad to me.
Granted fighters have the least special stuff inherently built into the class, and could probably use some more. The capstone abilities are good but not crowning moment of awesome good by any means.
I think that as of now, I'd add the ones I listed above (Diplomacy, Perform (oratory)) and Acrobatics, Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. I can imagine a fighter naturally training into any of these skills as part of training to be a knight or a brawler.
I'd agree on Acrobatics, Diplomacy (I think...) and Heal. The others don't scream "fighter archetype" to me. Stealth? Perception? How are these classic fightery skills?
It's supposed to fit in with the leader of men archetype. Just about any legendary or historical leader worth his fighting chops (Alexander the Great, Arjuna, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus, Themistocles, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Barbarossa, King Arthur, Gawain, Aragorn, El Cid, Paladin) could rouse his men into a fevered pitch using lots o' them pretty words...
I don't think I'd peg any of those men as fighters, though. A mix of aristocrats (mainly - Caesar, Alexander, Scipio, Themistocles, Pyrrhus - none of these men were greatly noted for skill in personal combat as opposed to skill in leading armies). The others are a mix of other classes. Aragorn is an archetypal ranger. Gawain is a paladin. Charlemagne's paladins are probably best in Paizo's new knight class, or as paladins themselves. Arthur might be a knight or an aristocrat, probably not a straight fighter. The others I don't know as much about, but I would guess similar.
I mean, Alexander might have had delusions that he was a fighter, sure. But when he actually tried to personally lead the charge into that breach you speak of, he got horribly mauled and his generals had to scramble to pull him out of the frying pan. Does not scream fighter to me at all.
Almost all the men you mentioned are in fact not famous for being fighters, they are famous for being leaders of fighters.
the bardic tradition of knights and chivalry means that the most notable fighting men of European lore are those who also wrote poetry and wooed fair maidens.
I'd still peg most knights as aristocrats - the majority of those who focused more on government or courtly life than endless training for personal combat. Albeit there are exceptions. As for the old European heroes who were fighters (Sigurd comes to mind, I think, mainly because I made stats for him), non class ranks in perform (song/poetry) seemed to do fine in that case. Sigurd the fighter was still a better poet than most bards, his lack of class skill notwithstanding. He would not be a better poet than a bard of his level, though, which is as it should be.
Granted fighters have the least special stuff inherently built into the class, and could probably use some more. The capstone abilities are good but not crowning moment of awesome good by any means.
Agreed.
I think that as of now, I'd add the ones I listed above (Diplomacy, Perform (oratory)) and Acrobatics, Heal, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. I can imagine a fighter naturally training into any of these skills as part of training to be a knight or a brawler.I'd agree on Acrobatics, Diplomacy (I think...) and Heal. The others don't scream "fighter archetype" to me. Stealth? Perception? How are these classic fightery skills?
Diplomacy: a fighter (or leader of fighters) needs to be able to parlay with enemy forces, and get what he wants out of the negotiations.
Stealth: a fighter who is seeking every strategic advantage would from time to time engage in ambushing tactics. A guerrilla fighter comes to mind, and can be one of the most dangerous threats to a large army.
Perception: a fighter is fundamentally a man surrounded by danger at all times, and as such he would be alert to the possible threats in the environment around him. On a more meta-game note, why the hell isn't Perception a class skill for everyone? Are clerics, fighters, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards particularly absent-minded?
Knowledge (history): a fighter grows up hearing stories of epic battles, brave warrior-princes, the rise and fall of empires, kingdoms, and nations, and the tragic choices of foolish warriors.
Knowledge (nobility): a skilled warrior would often feel the influence of nobility and royalty, for better or for worse.
Sense Motive: a fighter in parlay needs to know whether an enemy is intending to betray an oath or violate the rules of parlay. Furthermore, to effectively negotiate a fighter needs to discern what his opponent wants.
It's supposed to fit in with the leader of men archetype. Just about any legendary or historical leader worth his fighting chops (Alexander the Great, Arjuna, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus, Themistocles, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Barbarossa, King Arthur, Gawain, Aragorn, El Cid, Paladin) could rouse his men into a fevered pitch using lots o' them pretty words...I don't think I'd peg any of those men as fighters, though. A mix of aristocrats (mainly - Caesar, Alexander, Scipio, Themistocles, Pyrrhus - none of these men were greatly noted for skill in personal combat as opposed to skill in leading armies). The others are a mix of other classes. Aragorn is an archetypal ranger. Gawain is a paladin. Charlemagne's paladins are probably best in Paizo's new...
Technically, all a fighter is is a warrior with extra feats. All of these don't even have to take Fighter class, they could just take Warrior instead.
This is a sad state indeed when you can ignore the PC class entirely to model its archetypal inspiration. This is due mainly, I reckon, from the origins of D&D where "Fighting Men" were noticeably weaker than any of the "Hero" classes like Elf, Dwarf, Cleric, or Wizard.
Perception for me is an adventurers core skill and in MOP i feel all classes should get it for me its a duh skill that everyone should want as a class skill
I'd agree on Acrobatics, Diplomacy (I think...) and Heal. The others don't scream "fighter archetype" to me. Stealth? Perception? How are these classic fightery skills?Diplomacy: a fighter (or leader of fighters) needs to be able to parlay with enemy forces, and get what he wants out of the negotiations.
Stealth: a fighter who is seeking every strategic advantage would from time to time engage in ambushing tactics. A guerrilla fighter comes to mind, and can be one of the most dangerous threats to a large army.
Perception: a fighter is fundamentally a man surrounded by danger at all times, and as such he would be alert to the possible threats in the environment around him. On a more meta-game note, why the hell isn't Perception a class skill for everyone? Are clerics, fighters, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards particularly absent-minded?
Knowledge (history): a fighter grows up hearing stories of epic battles, brave warrior-princes, the rise and fall of empires, kingdoms, and nations, and the tragic choices of foolish warriors.
Knowledge (nobility): a skilled warrior would often feel the influence of nobility and royalty, for better or for worse.
Sense Motive: a fighter in parlay needs to know whether an enemy is intending to betray an oath or violate the rules of parlay. Furthermore, to effectively negotiate a fighter needs to discern what his opponent wants.
For several of these you've just cited why anyone would want ranks in the skill, rather than why they should be a fighter class skill. Sure, anyone would want ranks in Sense Motive if they're trying to figure out if someone is lying or not. But hammering out negotiations is not an archetypal part of the fighter class, nor is canny bargaining. Even commoners will grow up hearing the same stories of epic battles and brave warrior-princes, yet they don't get Knowledge as a class skill because the archetypal commoner is a farmer, not a researcher. Just as the archetypal fighter is a man who spends his time training for combat, not buried in dusty tomes of ancient history. One fighter or another may do some of that (non class ranks), but fighters are not specialized in it.
And things like feeling the influence of nobility and royalty are a lot different from being trained to know the name of every one of the King of XYZ's obscure great-great-grandrelatives by heart. You can be influenced by nobility without spending hours studying noble/royal geneological tables - and more to my point, spending hours studying geneological tables is not an archetypal fighter attribute.
As another note I'd point out that non class skills are significantly less gimped in PF than in 3.5. In fact, I'm currently playing a fighter with full ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Perception. He's good at all those things. He's not as good as someone with a class skill; the party rogue is better at bargaining (Sense Motive/Diplomacy) and lying (Bluff), as the party druid is better at noticing something just slightly off in the natural environment that indicates an attack is coming (Perception). All that is exactly as it should be.
It's supposed to fit in with the leader of men archetype. Just about any legendary or historical leader worth his fighting chops (Alexander the Great, Arjuna, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus, Themistocles, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Barbarossa, King Arthur, Gawain, Aragorn, El Cid, Paladin) could rouse his men into a fevered pitch using lots o' them pretty words...I don't think I'd peg any of those men as fighters, though. [snip]Technically, all a fighter is is a warrior with extra feats. All of these don't even have to take Fighter class, they could just take Warrior instead.
This is a sad state indeed when you can ignore the PC class entirely to model its archetypal inspiration. This is due mainly, I reckon, from the origins of D&D where "Fighting Men" were noticeably weaker than any of the "Hero" classes like Elf, Dwarf, Cleric, or Wizard.
A fine rant - (although you forgot that the fighter also gets weapon training, armor training, bravery, and his weapon/armor capstones over the Warrior), but you don't actually address my point, which is that the historical figures you quoted in support of fighters being great orators probably wouldn't actually be fighters. I fully agree that the fighter could stand to be a little stronger. I disagree that this should be accomplished by giving him a bunch of class skills that do not fit a fighter archetype.
I'm also fully prepared to discuss examples that aren't clearly not fighters, and what their archetypal skills are. I gave an example of a character I did consider a fighter. Sigurd. Yet despite Sigurd being a great leader of men, the mightiest warrior of the North, intelligent, wise, and charismatic, he blew his Sense Motive checks royally. As he did the Diplomacy checks he tried to make to patch things up with Brynhild afterwards. Royally blown. He failed every Will save in the entire saga, unless it was a save against fear (which PF fighter gets a hefty bonus on, so we're cool there). Not a great record already for your high-Will save, Diplomacy, Sense Motive specialized fighter here.
I don't tend to think the fighter needs all that much improvement. As I said, I'd be ok with upping him to 4 skills per level and the class skills I mentioned. But if you are going to improve it further, don't just give him a grab bag of the most powerful skills in PF (which, to be honest, is what your above list is) - give him things that make sense for a fighter archetype.
For several of these you've just cited why anyone would want ranks in the skill, rather than why they should be a fighter class skill. Sure, anyone would want ranks in Sense Motive if they're trying to figure out if someone is lying or not. But hammering out negotiations is not an archetypal part of the fighter class, nor is canny bargaining. Even commoners will grow up hearing the same stories of epic battles and brave warrior-princes, yet they don't get Knowledge as a class skill because the archetypal commoner is a farmer, not a researcher. Just as the archetypal fighter is a man who spends his time training for combat, not buried in dusty tomes of ancient history.
And things like feeling the influence of nobility and royalty are a lot different from being trained to know the name of every one of the King of XYZ's obscure great-great-grandrelatives by heart. You can be influenced by nobility without spending hours studying geneological tables - and more to my point, spending hours studying geneological tables is not an archetypal fighter attribute.
You know, these are legitimate complaints, and I retract most of my (overly ambitious) skill suggestions. I'd still like to keep Perform (oratory), however, as it's quite consistent with what I, at the very least, view as archetypal of a fighter as a leader of men.
Of course, all this boils down to what people are viewing as the "archetypal" view of fighters. Not all people view a fighter as a person who keeps his nose to the grindstone to fight, only fight, and screw over every other skill. In such a case, very specific changes might add to flavor in view of a specific archetype.
As another note I'd point out that non class skills are significantly less gimped in PF than in 3.5. In fact, I'm currently playing a fighter with full ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Perception. He's good at all those things. He's not as good as someone with a class skill; the party rogue is better at bargaining (Sense Motive/Diplomacy) and lying (Bluff), as the party druid is better at noticing something just slightly off in the natural environment that indicates an attack is coming (Perception). All that is exactly as it should be.
You know, I'm still getting used to this system, and that's what I'm going to end up blaming this whole snafu on XD
At least what I view fighters as, they make up some of the best damn orators in all of known history. This may be due to literary spooks "livening up" endless chronicles and what not, but historical and dramatic fighters could inspire greatness by means of a rousing warrior's speech. This isn't in my view a "Oh, he's got a level in aristocrat," this is "Oh, he's a high-level fighter." But of course, Your Mileage May Vary so this is one suggestion that I'm leaving in place for those who think that fighters ought to inspire their followers, simply as an ancillary part of the class feature.
I'll admit that I might have to put this under a separate heading, for "Leader of Men" options.
A fine rant - (although you forgot that the fighter also gets weapon training, armor training, bravery, and his weapon/armor capstones over the Warrior)
So the fighter class is slightly better than the warrior class. These are still complaints that the fighter is being buffed in something that another class does (like, Warrior) without adding any more interesting options.
... but you don't actually address my point, which is that the historical figures you quoted in support of fighters being great orators probably wouldn't actually be fighters.
Again, it depends on what you view as the archetypal definition of fighter. In the classical world, to receive any kind of advanced training, you had to be of some kind of upper-class background. Those who decided the fates of nations would be those who lead armies. As part of the core archetypal view of fighters as eventually being not simply good at killing stuff but as being a badass leader of men, he would need some different skills (like oratory).
This disagrees with your archetypal view of fighters as being consummate weaponmasters, and I'm okay with that. I'm certainly aware that Your Mileage May Vary, and you're free to take away whatever you find useful from this thread or any other discussion about what fighters should or shouldn't be. However, what I'm mostly concerned with in this thread is the degree to which DMs and designers are dissatisfied with that specific view that fighters just fight and should have no place (or an extremely limited place) in skill challenges and RPing.
I gave an example of a character I did consider a fighter. Sigurd. Yet despite Sigurd being a great leader of men, the mightiest warrior of the North, intelligent, wise, and charismatic, he blew his Sense Motive checks royally. As he did the Diplomacy checks he tried to make to patch things up with Brynhild afterwards. Royally blown. He failed every Will save in the entire saga, unless it was a save against fear (which PF fighter gets a hefty bonus on, so we're cool there). Not a great record already for your high-Will save, Diplomacy, Sense Motive specialized fighter here.
The Voelsungasaga always seemed like a campaign record of That One Campaign Where All We Rolled Was Ones. Considering the whole point of Norse epic sagas were that even badass, high-spec heroes could be easily pwn'd by the Norns and their damned fates for gods and men alike.
Could you give me more examples of badass fighters who weren't Leaders of Men? All I'm thinking of is people like Achilles or Gilgamesh, who were pretty much the definition of having followers. Actually, the whole quest parts of either the Iliad or the Epic of Gilgamesh were started when each hero's Cohort got skewered. I'm trying to get more of a feel of what you think a 20th-level fighter should look like, forgoing things like leadership just to focus on combat. The only thing I'm coming up with -- killing demons, killing dragons -- can be better done by either a paladin (smiting evil, baby!) or a ranger (favored enemy: dragons).
Personally, I just think that a 20th-level fighter being able to raise and inspire thousands of soldiers at a time just seems... a lot more epic? Special? Because there's no mechanic at all for any other character class to be able to do that. It's one idea, of course, and I'm sure there's other fighter archetypes to explore.
Again, it depends on what you view as the archetypal definition of fighter. In the classical world, to receive any kind of advanced training, you had to be of some kind of upper-class background. Those who decided the fates of nations would be those who lead armies. As part of the core archetypal view of fighters as eventually being not simply good at killing stuff but as being a badass leader of men, he would need some different skills (like oratory).This disagrees with your archetypal view of fighters as being consummate weaponmasters, and I'm okay with that. I'm certainly aware that Your Mileage May Vary, and you're free to take away whatever you find useful from this thread or any other discussion about what fighters should or shouldn't be.
I do grant that there's a lot of room in what the fighter class is. Could as easily be the consummate wrestlern as weaponmaster. Or a very good bare-knuckles brawler. But while he doesn't have to only be exceptionally good at personal combat and nothing else, he should, at least, be exceptionally good at personal combat. That rules out people like Caesar, Alexander, et al. IMO. As you say, YMMV.
On a side note, there did exist ancient societies in which commoners could get a great deal of practical military training. Training for a common legionary in Rome lasted than a conscript's whole term of service in several modern armies, for example. I don't think it would be at all unusual for a common legionary to have much more training in personal combat than his general.
The Voelsungasaga always seemed like a campaign record of That One Campaign Where All We Rolled Was Ones.
XD It really does.
Could you give me more examples of badass fighters who weren't Leaders of Men? All I'm thinking of is people like Achilles or Gilgamesh, who were pretty much the definition of having followers. Actually, the whole quest parts of either the Iliad or the Epic of Gilgamesh were started when each hero's Cohort got skewered. I'm trying to get more of a feel of what you think a 20th-level fighter should look like, forgoing things like leadership just to focus on combat.
Heh. I'd actually peg Achilles (and Hector) as a barbarian. Most of the poem is one long, slow buildup to his epic, army-shattering rage, after all. Seems too perfect. I've never read Gilgamesh though, can't comment.
Aias I would think of as a fighter, and probably an epic one at that, from the Iliad. Of the shield-focused, bulwark of defense style build.
Other legendary high level fighters who weren't great leaders of men... hmmm. Scáthach, who trained Cúchulainn. The 300 Spartans (in their non-film version, in which sheer stubborn courage is rather more important than badass speeches in holding up their morale). Most everyone from Norse mythology who isn't either clearly a barbarian, or else a magic user.
It's a somewhat hard question to answer, as those characters who may have been fighters but weren't Leaders of Men didn't get sagas and such written about them nearly as often. :P Also, because I'm not that well read in things other than old sagas and ancient literature.
Because there's no mechanic at all for any other character class to be able to do that.
Bard?
So taking a moment from that debate, and commenting on the earlier stuff here;
Weaponmaster -- a multi-weapon spec fighter; would be able to draw any of many types of weapons and be extremely useful at it (Let's see... my longsword's not working? Good thing I packed that +1 golem bane warhammer, and have weapon spec in it thanks to my class...) Builds in redundancy in weapon specs, which makes it more reliable when one's weapon isn't working.
This is my favorite thing on the thread, I think. The 'master of many forms of combat' fighter is probably the biggest hole in the current class.
Something you should all be cognizant of regarding heroic fighters of legend is that, by simple dint of being legendary, they're often required to be narrated as 1) fighters and 2) leaders.
Pick a period and culture, say, early-middle Roman empire. There were a lot of really really magnificent generals and commanders expanding the empire in those days, with names I can't be arsed to remember at this hour, but I'd wager anyone 100 pp that the best toe-to-toe fighters of the era could be found in the front ranks of the legions or the sand of the coliseum. A good warrior doesn't make a good leader any more than a good salesman makes a good CFO.
I mean, even look at some of the examples that come up here. Achilles was a demonstrably poor tactician, diplomat, and leader; all he had going for him was in-frigging-destructibility, and thus a high enough kill count to pick up a band of dudes saying "Hell, let this guy lead the way and I'll happily mop up afterwards." There's no *leadership* there, just some followers.
I'm totally on board for making a branch of fightery where the focus is on party improvement and leadership qualities, but it definitely shouldn't be the default.
The problem with approaching the Fighter as "just a guy who fights, and who does it without any magic or special power" is that as a representation of relative power... he should, by all rights, stop leveling at 6th or 7th level.
After that, you are getting into the realm of "more than human" in power.
By the time he's in his teens, the Fighter is facing things Li Mu Bai should be facing. Things that would make Conan crap his pants.
By 20th level, he's one step from divine rank 0. He's basically Kratos.
What I mean is... the Fighter should reliably not fear having to fight a 1000 foot tall statue, and take a full on bronze-fist-the-size-of-a-house to the face and stop it in it's tracks.
I really don't know how to do this in the current d20 system without basically making him magical (which is apparently a massive no-no). The only game I can realistically see a Fighter working and competing to the highest levels is when you simply don't have high levels: E6 (or some variant, E7 or E10).
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As for the actual topic (dramatic alternatives for Fighters).
I posted my thoughts in the recent thread, here.
On a side note, there did exist ancient societies in which commoners could get a great deal of practical military training. Training for a common legionary in Rome lasted than a conscript's whole term of service in several modern armies, for example. I don't think it would be at all unusual for a common legionary to have much more training in personal combat than his general.
This kind of undermines the notion that young well-to-do Roman nobility had a very extensive military training as part of their education.
A great example of what a Roman military commander should strive to be is Horatius Cocles at the Sublicius Bridge (or colloquially, "Horatius at the Bridge"). During the course of a war with the Etruscans, the Etruscans had pushed through their lines and were advancing on Rome itself. As commander of the forces at the bridge, Horatius was charged with dismantling the bridge so that the Etruscans couldn't cross. Standing alongside his two other generals, they held off the entire Etruscan army long enough for the bridge to be completely dismantled and then, leaping into the river in full armor and with a spear literally sticking out of his butt, he swam to the other side and safety.
I can imagine kings that have champions who fight for them, but isn't it a pretty standard fantasy trope that killing the king/general (who gets his own "boss fight" sequence, complete with music) defeats the massive invading army?
It's a somewhat hard question to answer, as those characters who may have been fighters but weren't Leaders of Men didn't get sagas and such written about them nearly as often. :P
I think this is the real sticking point here, and also pointed about by A Man In Black. I'd definitely peg out fighter/leader as being at least one core archetype among many (but definitely not the only one!)
Because there's no mechanic at all for any other character class to be able to do that.Bard?
Ok, so let's say we have a 20th-level general. Is he more likely to have a +20 BAB, or a +15 BAB? Secondly, is he liable to sing someone to death on a regular basis?
A "warlord" type fighter would certainly fill quite a bit of the same party role as a bard (buffer), but not the same stylistic niche.
Fafhrd, Gimli, Paris (technically a leader, but notably bad at it), any version of adult Anakin Skywalker (sometimes a leader, never good at it) including Darth Vader, Miyamoto Musashi (arguable), Ogami Itto, Cloud (from FF7).
Fafhrd -- he seems like he would be a Brawler-type fighter. Possibly the same with Gimli, only more of a focus on weapons. Anakin would be more of a "magical" fighter, a type that hasn't really been explored too heavily. Musashi would be a Duelist-type. I'd never heard of Ogami Itto before, but it seems like a wonderful build for a fighter -- maybe a Brawler or Weaponmaster, depending on how we define the different archetypes. And Cloud -- erm, I can't really peg him down as having a particular fighting style, as opposed to flying around and getting summons. So... Magical Fighter?
So to conclude, here would be the various archetypes, any of which a "default fighter" could choose to specialize in (which can still be up for debate as to their form and function):
- Weaponmaster -- a master of many fighting styles and weapons.
- Duelist -- a master of personal, one-on-one combat.
- Brawler -- a highly durable fighter capable of taking on many opponents at one time
- Warlord -- a leader of men and inspirational source of strength
- Mage Killer -- a fighter specializing in disrupting, disabling, and killing magic-users
- Guardian (or different name?) -- a devoted defender, skilled at protecting allies
What do you think of this new list? We've got those specializing in fighting one enemy at a time, those specializing in fighting many at a time, those specializing in fighting wizards and the like, one specializing in protecting allies, and one that masters many weapons and many fighting styles.
Just as it's more useful to talk about a 10th-level abjurer as different from a 10th-level enchanter, it's more useful to talk about a 10th-level duelist as opposed to a 10th-level mage killer.
Is this what you'd like to see in the fighter class?
* Weaponmaster -- a master of many fighting styles and weapons.
* Duelist -- a master of personal, one-on-one combat.
* Brawler -- a highly durable fighter capable of taking on many opponents at one time
* Warlord -- a leader of men and inspirational source of strength
* Mage Killer -- a fighter specializing in disrupting, disabling, and killing magic-users
* Guardian (or different name?) -- a devoted defender, skilled at protecting allies
I like all of them except Mage Killer. That one seems to be a corner case thing better saved for a prestige class, rather than a core branch of fighter.
The real trick with all of these, honestly, is to make sure that they don't diverge so far from the fighter as to warrant their own classes. Brawler, duelist, guardian, and weaponmaster all seem straightforward enough in this regard, but when I start puzzling out the warlord, he almost wants his own progression. It's a close thing, but to do them proper justice, I think they deserve a good will save progression and a number of additional class skills that just don't make sense for the other subclasses.
For the others, the core fighter metrics (full BAB, d10 hd, good fortitude, base skill list, feats at every even level) seem quite workable. I'm gonna go brainstorm for a bit, and I'll be back with a sample progression or two.
I like all of them except Mage Killer. That one seems to be a corner case thing better saved for a prestige class, rather than a core branch of fighter.
I see that, and I like it. If you were really wanting to play a Mage Killer, you would have to pick up at least some magic, if only for counterspelling / spell resistance and what not.
I could also see the "magical fighter" or the "epic hero" as being a prestige class, as they're not necessarily a consummate fighter.
The real trick with all of these, honestly, is to make sure that they don't diverge so far from the fighter as to warrant their own classes. Brawler, duelist, guardian, and weaponmaster all seem straightforward enough in this regard, but when I start puzzling out the warlord, he almost wants his own progression. It's a close thing, but to do them proper justice, I think they deserve a good will save progression and a number of additional class skills that just don't make sense for the other subclasses.
For the others, the core fighter metrics (full BAB, d10 hd, good fortitude, base skill list, feats at every even level) seem quite workable. I'm gonna go brainstorm for a bit, and I'll be back with a sample progression or two.
You know, this is all very useful feedback! Thank you.
Now I'm thinking of whether Warlord would work better as a prestige class or as a martial-type fighter. Better to go off a standard PC class and see if we can modify it to meet our expectations, that's my strategy! Now... for a martial bard, it seems like the use of spells would be outside of the "core concept" of a warlord/general, so I'll pass on that. However, a fighter who rises through the ranks and distinguishes himself as a leader might take charge of an army, and through the course of training as a leader of men (hint, hint) he would add abilities to his repertoire that would be unavailable to other fighters of the same power level.
So, I think we've come to the conclusion that we have a couple of "core concepts" of consummate fighters, out of which a fighter can take prestige classes to meet specific, super-heroic concepts. These prestige classes would be:
- Mage Killer
- Warlord
- Epic Hero (maybe?)
- Magical Hero (maybe Cloud?)
What do you think?
Those look like decent prestige classes, but honestly, there are so many prestige classes out there that I'd sooner leave their creation to others.
As for the core fighter, however, how does this strike you?
HD: d10
BAB: full
Saves: good fortitude
Skills: 2/level
Progression:
1: Bonus feat, Style technique
2: Bonus feat, bravery +1
3: Style defense 1
4: Bonus feat
5: Technique mastery 1
6: Bonus feat, bravery +2
7: Style defense 2
8: Bonus feat
9: Technique mastery 2
10: Bonus feat, bravery +3
11: Style defense 3
12: Bonus feat
13: Technique mastery 3
14: Bonus feat, bravery +4
15: Style defense 4
16: Bonus feat
17: Technique mastery 4
18: Bonus feat, bravery +5
19: Style defense 5
20: Bonus feat, style mastery
And for a sample style:
Style Technique (Ex): The guardian specializes in keeping his allies protected. Once per round as a free action, he may redirect an attack aimed at an adjacent ally to himself. He must be aware of the attack, not flat-footed, and declare use of this ability before the outcome of the attack is determined.
Style Defense (Ex): The guardian is a master at making the best possible use of his armor. Starting at 3rd level, he reduces the armor check penalty of armor he wears by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and and increases the effective armor value by 1 for any armor he wears. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1 (to a maximum of 5 at level 19). This ability does not apply to shields.
Technique Mastery (Ex): The guardian may use his style's technique one additional time each round for every level of technique mastery, and the guardian and each adjacent ally gain the guardian's mastery level as a bonus to AC and reflex saves against damaging area of effects (such as a fireball spell or a dragon's breath weapon). The guardian adds his mastery level to his CMD, and starting at level 9, the guardian may redirect combat maneuver attempts made against adjacent allies to himself, in addition to attacks.
Style Mastery (Ex): The guardian may use his style's technique any number of times per round. He may apply his technique and it's benefits to all allies within 10 feet.
The specific terminology is, of course, fluid.
Also, I should note that this particular form of level progression owes some debt to tejón's Iron Mage class found in this thread.
Incidentally, that very same class seems to be a pretty excellent spellcasting fighter variant - that is to say, Cloud and his kind.
Those look like decent prestige classes, but honestly, there are so many prestige classes out there that I'd sooner leave their creation to others.
As for the core fighter, however, how does this strike you?
HD: d10
BAB: full
Saves: good fortitude
Skills: 2/levelProgression:
1: Bonus feat, Style technique
2: Bonus feat, bravery +1
3: Style defense 1
4: Bonus feat
5: Technique mastery 1
6: Bonus feat, bravery +2
7: Style defense 2
8: Bonus feat
9: Technique mastery 2
10: Bonus feat, bravery +3
11: Style defense 3
12: Bonus feat
13: Technique mastery 3
14: Bonus feat, bravery +4
15: Style defense 4
16: Bonus feat
17: Technique mastery 4
18: Bonus feat, bravery +5
19: Style defense 5
20: Bonus feat, style masteryAnd for a sample style:
** spoiler omitted **...
I can't say how profoundly I like this setup. Thank you, and it's exactly what I was looking for!
It also looks like it would fill up the same amount of space as, say, a sorcerer bloodline or a wizard's specialty school. I also really, really like the term "fighting style," and it seems about as modular as any other class specialization. The only problem I might have is that it somewhat overlaps with ranger's "fighting style," which we might want to distinguish it from.
Would this mean that the typical fighter build is already a Weaponmaster?
I haven't read through the most recently posted build yet, though I will when I get a chance.
In the meantime, I'd suggest that around 13th-14th level seems to be the core fall-off point for fighters, at which they start playing a noticeable second fiddle. Might want to focus improvements at those levels and up.
I can't say how profoundly I like this setup. Thank you, and it's exactly what I was looking for!
It also looks like it would fill up the same amount of space as, say, a sorcerer bloodline or a wizard's specialty school. I also really, really like the term "fighting style," and it seems about as modular as any other class specialization. The only problem I might have is that it somewhat overlaps with ranger's "fighting style," which we might want to distinguish it from.
Would this mean that the typical fighter build is already a Weaponmaster?
I'm glad you like it. It feels a bit generic, unfortunately, but that's going to end up happening when you try and make it adaptable to multiple themes within a single class. Fighters always were generic anyhow, so it's no great loss.
We could replace 'fighting style' with 'martial style', for differentiation from the ranger abilities. On that note, actually, martial is just a good word to use in general.
L1: Martial style
L3+4x: Martial defense
L5+4x: Martial mastery
L20: Style mastery
And yes, I figure the base fighter is already pretty much a weapon master. I think I'd rewrite him thus:
Martial Style (Ex): At first level, the fighter chooses one weapon group (per the core book). He adds +1 to all attack and damage rolls with weapons of this style, and to his CMB when using one of those weapons as part of a maneuver.
Martial Defense (Ex): Starting at third level, the fighter reduces the check penalty of armor he wears and increases its maximum dexterity bonus. These bonuses are equal to his martial defense level (1 at level 3, 2 at level 7, etc)
Martial Mastery (Ex): At level 5 and every 4 levels thereafter, the may select an additional weapon group to apply his martial style bonuses to. Each time he selects a new weapon group in this way, his bonus increases by +1 for all the groups - thus, a level 9 fighter would have a +3 bonus to three different weapon groups.
Style Mastery (Ex): At level 20, whenever the fighter wields a weapon he has selected for his martial style, he may treat its critical multiplier as one higher than it normally is (x3 becomes x4, etc).
I'm glad you like it. It feels a bit generic, unfortunately, but that's going to end up happening when you try and make it adaptable to multiple themes within a single class. Fighters always were generic anyhow, so it's no great loss.
I think that more and beefier fighter-only feats could help differentiate different fighters.
We could replace 'fighting style' with 'martial style', for differentiation from the ranger abilities. On that note, actually, martial is just a good word to use in general.
L1: Martial style
L3+4x: Martial defense
L5+4x: Martial mastery
L20: Style mastery
Likey likey.
And yes, I figure the base fighter is already pretty much a weapon master. I think I'd rewrite him thus:
** spoiler omitted **...
Sounds great.
What would a brawler look like? I imagine that the "martial defense" might involve multifighting, like when fighting more than one opponent, the brawler identifies one opponent: against all other opponents, he gains a +1 AC (scales up to +2, +3, etc. etc.). Would that be balanced, do you reckon?
And the brawler's "martial style" technique might involve grappling bull rush, and overrun attempts, perhaps. I have a great idea for a complicated (and higher prereq) technique where he would grab an opponent and throw him into a crowd, knocking the entire crowd down. Or being able to bull rush a crowd at one time.
And then "style mastery" might be being able to grapple anything.
A quick suggestion on a high level ability, drawn from house rules in the campaign I'm playing in now:
The ability to make an iterative attack on a standard action at a certain level. A fighter's effectiveness starts to really fall off at 11-12 or so if he can't full-attack, whereas a wizard can always fit in a move while still taking his most effective action (standard action spell). Current campaign houserules that Bab +11 grants one iterative attack on a standard action, which I think helps a lot. Could work well as a higher level fighter ability.
I've always thought that fighter could use some sort of anti-tactics style ability. A Barbarian goes in with his fury backing his own strength, a Paladin fights using his faith, but a fighter is like a boxer or MMA fighter. He reads what the opponent does and adjusts and counters. So maybe an ability that allows them to negate certain melee based feats used against them by making some sort of check. Haven't really thought this through, just figured I'd throw it out there and someone might run with it.
A quick suggestion on a high level ability, drawn from house rules in the campaign I'm playing in now:
The ability to make an iterative attack on a standard action at a certain level. A fighter's effectiveness starts to really fall off at 11-12 or so if he can't full-attack, whereas a wizard can always fit in a move while still taking his most effective action (standard action spell). Current campaign houserules that Bab +11 grants one iterative attack on a standard action, which I think helps a lot. Could work well as a higher level fighter ability.
Sounds like a good candidate for a fighter-only feat. It would certainly help with the problem of fighters' damage not scaling up, especially if they move. Let's see... how would that work?
Lightning Strike [Combat]
You can strike multiple times while you attack, even if you move.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 11th-level fighter.
Benefit: While taking a standard action to make an attack action, you may make an additional attack at your second iterative attack bonus. You may choose a second target or maneuver (such as a trip attempt) for this attack. At 16th level, you make take an additional attack at your next highest iterative attack bonus.
A quick suggestion on a high level ability, drawn from house rules in the campaign I'm playing in now:
The ability to make an iterative attack on a standard action at a certain level. A fighter's effectiveness starts to really fall off at 11-12 or so if he can't full-attack, whereas a wizard can always fit in a move while still taking his most effective action (standard action spell). Current campaign houserules that Bab +11 grants one iterative attack on a standard action, which I think helps a lot. Could work well as a higher level fighter ability.
Sounds like a good candidate for a fighter-only feat. It would certainly help with the problem of fighters' damage not scaling up, especially if they move. Let's see... how would that work?
Lightning Strike [Combat]
You can strike multiple times while you attack, even if you move.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, 11th-level fighter.
Benefit: While taking a standard action to make an attack action, you may make an additional attack at your second iterative attack bonus. You may choose a second target or maneuver (such as a trip attempt) for this attack. At 16th level, you make take an additional attack at your next highest iterative attack bonus.
I like this solution, and have been contemplating something sort of like it myself for awhile (since before Pathfinder), but then what of the Vital Strike feats? A good houserule would be to simply roll all three into one scaling Vital Strike.
I like this solution, and have been contemplating something sort of like it myself for awhile (since before Pathfinder), but then what of the Vital Strike feats? A good houserule would be to simply roll all three into one scaling Vital Strike.
So, how about
Greater Vital Strike
Prerequisites: Vital Strike, base attack bonus +11
Benefits: Whenever you use Vital Strike, you roll the damage dice for your weapon once per iterative attack your base attack bonus would normally allow you on a full attack. The bonus dice are multiplied on a critical hit, just as though they were part of the base damage for the weapon. Other precision and strength-based effects are unaffected.
Does that seem too good for a move-and-strike action? Including the bonus dice in the crit multiplication might do too much damage, since it lets you pile a hefty chunk of your damage-accuracy ratio into a your highest attack bonus... math time!
Level 12 fighter, 2-handing +3 greataxe, str 24, power attack, improved critical..
Full attack: greataxe +18/+13/+8 (d12+25/19-20/x3). Average damage vs. AC 27 is ~39.1
Vital strike multiplying bonus dice: greataxe +18 (3d12+25/19-20/x3). Average damage vs AC 27 is ~32.4
Vital strike *not* multiplying bonus dice: greataxe +18 (d12+25/19-20/x3 + 2d12). Average damage vs. AC 27 is ~ 30.0
Hrmmm... whatcha guys think? Personally, I'm a bit intimidated at a guy charging in with vital strike and critting for ~130 damage. Only happens 6% of hits (7% charging), but when it does, oof...
On the Improved Vital Strike feat above, bonus dice never multiply on a crit, no need to break that trend. The Vital Strike feats do suck as written now though, so otherwise this is a good update.
It's also opening a large can of worms for Spirited Chargers with lances and such. Bonus dice should not multiply on an anything, on general principle.
On the Improved Vital Strike feat above, bonus dice never multiply on a crit, no need to break that trend. The Vital Strike feats do suck as written now though, so otherwise this is a good update.
It's also opening a large can of worms for Spirited Chargers with lances and such. Bonus dice should not multiply on an anything, on general principle.
Fair enough. Personally, I was just surprised to find the difference in average damage was so small between including it and not. My motivation was mostly just to just make the templating simpler for the attack, since it's so messy to have that (d8+10/x3 +2d8 +d6 electricity +2d10 sonic on a critical hit) type junk :)
As a feat, the Lightning Strike feat would need to be split into at least two (one for each iterative attack). Even then I'm not seeing any melee fighter build that wouldn't take it, which for me is an indication that it probably isn't balanced with other feats. If you make a feat that much better than all the others, it might as well be a class feature.
As a class feature, either grant it to all characters at a certain BAB, or perhaps fold it into weapon training/greater rage/TWF combat style or something. Granting it only to the fighter would certainly accomplish the goal of powering up the fighter, but at the relative expense of other meleers, especially the barbarian and TWF ranger.
It probably also shouldn't stack with Vital Strike. I suspect it could simply replace Vital Strike.
IN original D@D, the fighting man gave up nothing to elf, cleric or magic-user, because the Fighter reigned supreme in BAB and weapon mastery. They also got multiple attacks faster then elf or dwarf, and clerics and mages NEVER got them.
Seriously, the base problems to fix the Fighter are well known.
Skill points: to Four. Fighters tend to be extremely focused individuals, and prize brains as much as brawn.
Skills: Definitely add Spot, and Craft. Most fighters do SOMETHING in their down time, and all martial characters end up as sentries at some point. Diplomacy? how many diplomatic boxers you know?
Saves: Fighters are in better physical shape then any other class, and awesomely disciplined to do what they do. They SHOULD have all good saves. A monk is going to have a high Wisdom, and be better at will. But the Fighter has as much or more martial discipline on his side. He practices...the monk meditates. He is NOT a mere warrior. You know you're dealing with the fighter when the rest of the party is bedding down, and he's going off to practice forms.
Feats: Warblades have ~42 feat-equivalents, and manuvers often scale by level. Yes, Fighters should have LOTS more class abilities.
======
But the problems with Fighters are not just with fighters. The problems with Fighters are that MELEE in general got shafted as their schtick.
Melees used to be able to get multiple attacks EVERY time...not wait for this FULL ATTACK action. Why don't you send those spellcasters back to needing Full Round Actions to cast every spell, mmm?
Melees used to have the best BAB. Still do, except spells can replicate it, and the other classes ALL got TH boosts. Clerics used to be 2/3, Rogues 1/2, and mages 1/3, y'know?
Melees were the ONLY classes with multiple attacks. Think about that. the only way other classes got two attacks was with two weapons.
Multiple attacks were a CLASS ABILITY. None of this BAB-based stuff. You didn't reach 6 BAB, you reached 7th level in FIGHTER, and you got your attack.
Unlimited ability scores destroyed the importance of a good BAB. Who cares if your Druid doesn't have a 20 BAB, if he's got a Str of 46?
Unlimited ability scores destroyed the importance of a good Hit Dice. Once, ONLY melees got the HP advantage of a 17+ Con. All other classes were stuck with +2 hp/hit die. Look at any video game out there...all the melees have WAY more hit points then any other class. Now, hit points are based on Constitution. WHo cares if you've got a d4, if you've got a 22 Con? Fighters could easily have almost twice the hit points of a cleric. Once.
Fighters/melees once had the best saves. Why? Cause they ate the most spells. Not anymore. Having no magic once meant RESISTANCE to magic, instead of vulnerability to it.
Fighters/melees once had exclusive access to Str benefits greater then 18. Only Melees could get better then +1/+2 to hit. Now, Str scores throw around TH/DMg easily. Take a look at 4e and how very, very carefully they regulate TH/DMg scores, saves, and ability scores. There's a reason for that, and the main one is that it is TONS easier to get good physical stats then it is good mental ones.
And full Dex bonuses used to apply in all armor, so having armor prof meant something. Doesn't...but go over to 4e, and yeah, armor prof is damn important there.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not touting 4E, but if you want to address the problems with melee vs. casters, there's more fundamental things you need to redress then a simple class fix.
I'd start with the Vital Strike being applied to all melee classes automatically.
Make attacks a function of class level, NOT BAB. This encourages people to stay in one class. If not, they defer attacking power...it's a tradeoff.
Give armor and shield profs teeth.
Make martial weapons prof mean something.
Cap ability scores, and benefits for other classes...or give melees more of those benefits.
In short, make the melees best at melee again, bar none. Don't LET other classes sub for them...don't give them the choice or chance. Then, even if they are less effective out of melee, they are still mandatory and neccessary.
==Aelryinth
IN original D@D, the fighting man gave up nothing to elf, cleric or magic-user, because the Fighter reigned supreme in BAB and weapon mastery. They also got multiple attacks faster then elf or dwarf, and clerics and mages NEVER got them.
Seriously, the base problems to fix the Fighter are well known.
<snip>
Whew, friend, mind you don't stray too far from that handle.
I generally appreciate the sentiment you're trying to get across, but I think you're missing the point of the thread - rewriting the fighter to be more competitive and/or dynamic - in favor of a personal vendetta against some of the fundamental design ideas behind the 3.x system.
There's entirely too many separate arguments in your post to address individually; I agree with a few, disagree with more, but mostly they're just very far off topic. Perhaps you could render some of your ideas into an actual class rebuild that we could discuss?