It's there, seek down to "Natural Attacks" and read the full entry (including the table linking primary/secondary to the attack types).
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On page 53 under Animal Choices it says that "All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted."
So how does my druid's ape companion attack. Is it bite +2 (1d4), 2 claws -3 (1d4+1)?. That sentence confuses me when it mentions getting Multiattack at a later level. Surely that means that the bite or claws aren't at their full base attack bonus?
Cheers
Bite and Claw are primary attacks, so your Ape companion would have three attacks at its full BAB (+2).
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On page 53 under Animal Choices it says that "All animal attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus unless otherwise noted."
So how does my druid's ape companion attack. Is it bite +2 (1d4), 2 claws -3 (1d4+1)?. That sentence confuses me when it mentions getting Multiattack at a later level. Surely that means that the bite or claws aren't at their full base attack bonus?
Cheers
It's Bite +2 (1d4+1), 2 Claws +2 (1d4+1); since all of these are Primary Natural Attacks, they use the Full BaB and the Full Strength bonus to damage.
The Multiattack bonus Feat gained at 9th level is really useful only for 1) creatures with a single Primary Natural Attack (like a Wolf, or a Boar), since by the special rules for Animal Companions, they gain a second attack at -5 (think of an 'iterative' attack with the Natural Weapon; it even uses the full x1,5 Str bonus to damage, since it's a single Primary Natural Attack, like a Two-Handed weapon), and 2) creatures with Secondary Natural Attacks (like a Horse), whose penalty changes from -5 to -2.
Of the Animal Companions in the Core Rulebook, these are the animals which benefit from the bonus feat:
- Boar (second 'iterative' Gore attack at -5)
- Camel (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Crocodile (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Dog (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Horse (Hooves penalties becomes -2 from the initial -5)
- Shark (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Snake, Constrictor (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Snake, Viper (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Wolf (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
From the Bestiary, these are the animal which benefit from the bonus feat:
- Ankylosaurus (second 'iterative' Tail attack at -5)
- Auroch/ Bison (second 'iterative' Gore attack at -5)
- Brachiosaurus (second 'iterative' Tail attack at -5)
- Dire Bat (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Dire Rat (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Dolphin (second 'iterative' Slam attack at -5)
- Elasmosaurus (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Giant Frog (second 'iterative' Bite OR Tongue attack at -5)
- Giant Moray Eel (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Goblin Dog (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Hyena (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Monitor Lizard (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Orca (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Pteranodon (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
- Rhinoceros (second 'iterative' Gore attack at -5)
- Stegosaurus (second 'iterative' Tail attack at -5)
- Triceratops (second 'iterative' Gore attack at -5)
- Tyrannosaurus (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
And finally, from the Bonus Bestiary, these are the animal which benefit from the bonus feat:
- Axe Beak (second 'iterative' Bite attack at -5)
All others... gain nothing from it.
All,
One thing to consider. The "Animal" type description in the back of the Beastiary states that HERBIVORES treat all natural attacks as secondary, suffering a -5 to attack unless possessing the multiattack feat, at which point the penalty becomes -2.
Apes, and Horses are HERBIVORES.
I'm not really sure why this matters, and seems arbitrary and too specific mechanically, but that's just info.
Also, I was under the assumption that the first attack listed was the primary (supposedly by the animal's proclivity), and all other attacks were secondary. Evidence of this assumption permeates the books.
Just some FYI and discussion,
Thanks.
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All,
One thing to consider. The "Animal" type description in the back of the Beastiary states that HERBIVORES treat all natural attacks as secondary, suffering a -5 to attack unless possessing the multiattack feat, at which point the penalty becomes -2.
Apes, and Horses are HERBIVORES.
I'm not really sure why this matters, and seems arbitrary and too specific mechanically, but that's just info.
Also, I was under the assumption that the first attack listed was the primary (supposedly by the animal's proclivity), and all other attacks were secondary. Evidence of this assumption permeates the books.
Just some FYI and discussion,
Thanks.
Apes are most certainly not herbivores. Chimpanzees actively hunt monkeys.
And that's how it used to work in 3.5. In Pathfinder they've made it simpler by saying all attacks of this type are primary and all these are secondary rather than worrying about what order the attack should be run in.
My bad on apes.
What about the herbivore thing, and where do they tell you which animals are and are not herbivores.
It seems an insignificant rule without a subtype per animal, and if I missed it, my bad again.
I don't see anything resembling "herbivore" in the creatures' descriptions on the online reference documents. Horses have the special trait "Docile" explicitly saying that all their attacks are secondary when not war-trained.
Even when applying what we know of animals, most of those listed are carnivores. In the bestiary, there are only animals of interest when you have to fight and/or mount them. I didn't find Sheeps or Cows, for instance.
Not having the printed Bestiary nearby, I wonder if the "herbivore" was a general footnote or specific information on some entries.
It's in the description of the Animal type in the Bestiary. It reads:
"A noncombative herbivore treats its natural weapons as secondary attacks."
Bolded for reference. A Tryceratops is an herbivore, but surely is NOT a noncombative animal... hence his Gore is (effectively) a Primary Natural Attack.
A noncombative herbivore, for example, could be a gazelle (should the GM need to simulate a 'savannah hunting', for example... gazelle statistics are not provided, but he has the tools to create the animal).
I didn't realized that the besttiary had designatied primary and secondary attacks. I will read the bestiary and incorporate that into my game. Mostly I want to know for a character's animal companion.
I appreciate the discussion.
The herbivore rule in the back still seems pointless though since, as stated earlier, animals are arguably in the bestiary, with stats and all, for combative reasons only or else their appearance in a game would be narrative only.
I didn't realized that the besttiary had designatied primary and secondary attacks. I will read the bestiary and incorporate that into my game. Mostly I want to know for a character's animal companion.
I appreciate the discussion.
The herbivore rule in the back still seems pointless though since, as stated earlier, animals are arguably in the bestiary, with stats and all, for combative reasons only or else their appearance in a game would be narrative only.
Well, I would not call it pointless ; the Bestiary in fact includes rules for the creation of new creatures as a tool for the GM - not every animal has statistics in the Bestiary, nor could be possible to include every existant animal (or other fantastic creatures) in the future Bestiaries, too. However, as a tool for the GM, we know that if we want to create a noncombative herbivore, we should rememeber that all his Natural Attacks are considered Secondary (Horses trained for combat for example, since are not 'noncombative' anymore, follow the 'normal' rules for creatures with a Bite and two Hooves - the Bite is a Primary attack, while the Hooves are Secondary Attacks).
As a final note regarding Natural Attacks, please don't forget that:
"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on attack rolls."
(this is the reason why a Stegosaurus, for example, makes attacks with its tail at Full BaB - despite the Tail being described as a Secondary Natural Attack - and with enhanced damage from its Strength bonus)
and
"If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
(the reason why a war-trained Pony, for example, makes attacks with his 2 Hooves at Full BaB despite a Hoof is being described as a Secondary Attack - it doesn't follow the rule for a 'only one attack' as the Stegosaurus above, but still doesn't take the -5 penalty).
