Hey everyone, the last year or so I've been eyeball deep in 4e, but I am gearing up to run my first full blown PF game. However, I find myself a bit rusty with the rules. For the most part, the book itself has been very clear, but the following question came up.
Check the following stat blocks on the PF SRD:
Goblin Warchanter - Goblin Bard 1 (CR 1/2)
Goblin Commando - Goblin Ranger 1 (CR 1/2)
Orik Vancaskerkin - Human Fighter 3 (CR 2)
What am I missing here? I thought that a leveled creature, if it is the base, has a CR = to the level of their classes. Therefore in order the CRs should be 1, 1, 3?
What am I missing?
What am I missing here? I thought that a leveled creature, if it is the base, has a CR = to the level of their classes. Therefore in order the CRs should be 1, 1, 3?What am I missing?
Nope, the CR of a creature with just class levels is CL - 1.
Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
What am I missing here? I thought that a leveled creature, if it is the base, has a CR = to the level of their classes. Therefore in order the CRs should be 1, 1, 3?What am I missing?
Nope, the CR of a creature with just class levels is CL - 1.
Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
Thanks!
Thanks!
No problem.
Hey Rogue - good to see you back!
The CR of a "normal" creature with PC classes is Class Level -1, unless it has PC gear amount (independent of "encounter" treasure), then you typically add +1.
So a 10th level wizard with 12,750gp in gear is CR 9. A 10th level wizard with 62,000gp in gear is CR 10. Or something like that :)
Hey Rogue - good to see you back!
The CR of a "normal" creature with PC classes is Class Level -1, unless it has PC gear amount (independent of "encounter" treasure), then you typically add +1.
So a 10th level wizard with 12,750gp in gear is CR 9. A 10th level wizard with 62,000gp in gear is CR 10. Or something like that :)
Yep, here's the relevant rule.
NPC Gear Adjustments: You can significantly increase or decrease the power level of an NPC with class levels by adjusting the NPC's gear. The combined value of an NPC's gear is given in Creating NPCs on Table: NPC Gear. A classed NPC encountered with no gear should have his CR reduced by 1 (provided that loss of gear actually hampers the NPC), while a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table: Character Wealth by Level) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR. Be careful awarding NPCs this extra gear, though—especially at high levels, where you can blow out your entire adventure's treasure budget in one fell swoop!
So, even if you take a level 5 rogue (CR 4) and kit him up with 9th level equipment, he's still only a CR 5 (thanks to him being a glass cannon).
Also note that if it's got more than 1 racial HD it doesn't get the -1 reduction in CR.
Thus a Gnoll Barbarian 1 is CR 2 and an Orc Barbarian 1 is CR 1.
Also note that if it's got more than 1 racial HD it doesn't get the -1 reduction in CR.
Thus a Gnoll Barbarian 1 is CR 2 and an Orc Barbarian 1 is CR 1.
Right, so basically, you add the CR of the creature plus the class levels to get a new CR.
So a Minotaur (CR 4) with 4 levels of Barbarian would be CR 8.
Thanks for all the help everyone. While I have your ears, let me ask two more quick questions -- only one of which is rule related?
1. The Rules state - Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores -- So even a 1st level goblin bard would have these adjustments, correct?
2. So we now have 6 APs to choose from . . . any suggestions on which ones I should run for my home group? I am leaning CotCT as I already own the first two installments of it. I own RotRL, but since my group has played a lot of D&D, I thought they may want a more original story . . . How do Second Darkness and Council of Thieves stack up to Crimson Throne?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for all the help everyone. While I have your ears, let me ask two more quick questions -- only one of which is rule related?
1. The Rules state - Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores -- So even a 1st level goblin bard would have these adjustments, correct?
2. So we now have 6 APs to choose from . . . any suggestions on which ones I should run for my home group? I am leaning CotCT as I already own the first two installments of it. I own RotRL, but since my group has played a lot of D&D, I thought they may want a more original story . . . How do Second Darkness and Council of Thieves stack up to Crimson Throne?
Thanks in advance.
Standard NPCs (Commoners, Experts, Warriors) are typically built with a 3 point ability buy resulting in an array of 11,11,11,10,10,10.
NPCs with PC classes (Fighter, etc) are built with a 15 point array. This would typically be a 15,14,13,12,10,8 but if you want to customize the NPC you could do an 18,10,10,10,10,8 or a 14,14,14,10,10,10 if you really want. The +4,+4,+2,+2,0,-2 is just a short hand way of doing this.
You can build NPCs with significantly higher ability scores (20-25 point array - or higher) but those individuals should probably not recieve the -1 CR reduction.
I've liked all the APs thus far but CoT offers a significant advantage in that it's explicitly designed around the pathfinder rules and thus doesn't need any DM modifications.
Thanks -- It is likely going to be Curse of the Crimson Throne or Council of Thieves . . . though there is something to be said for going back to Sandpoint and starting from the beginning.
Read through the first couple of parts of CoT before committing to a choice. It might be worthwhile in doing a practice run in the short term and going with the Kingmaker AP when it comes out. CoT tops out at a lower character level whereas Kingmaker should finish in the 17-18 level range.
Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
What happens when a creature has both PC and NPC class levels, like an expert/rogue for example? Would that be -1 or -2?
The -2 only applies if the creature is 100% NPC class (no PC class levels and no racial hit dice).
What happens when a creature has both PC and NPC class levels, like an expert/rogue for example? Would that be -1 or -2?
Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
There is no solid rule for it, but an npc class should not add as much to CR as a pc class will.
In the case they are mixed classes it might be good to treat the npc class as a non-associated class for multi-classing.For example rogue 7 would be CR 6, adding 6 expert level will then make it CR 9. I'd just give it gear as it were a 10th lvl rogue.
What happens when a creature has both PC and NPC class levels, like an expert/rogue for example? Would that be -1 or -2?
Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.
There are definitely going to be judgement calls. I'd be tempted to go with a rule of if the majority of levels are PC then the cumulative reduction is -1. If the majority of levels are NPC then the cumulative reduction would be -2.
Examples:
Human Rogue 7/ Expert 3 would probably be CR 9
Human Rogue 3/ Expert 7 would probably be CR 8
It gets a bit trickier with creatures with racial HD.
A Bugbear Ranger 4/ Adept 2 would be CR 7(base CR 2 + 4 CR (4 associated levels from ranger) + 1 CR (2 non-associated levels-NPC level are always non-associated)
A Minotaur Sorceror 4/ Expert 2 would be CR 7(base CR 4 + 2 CR (4 non-associated levels from Sorceror) + 1 CR (2 non-associated NPC levels)
A Lillend Fighter 2/ Bard 2/ Expert 2 would be CR 12 (base CR 7 + 2 CR (Lillend has the Combat role so Fighter levels are associated) + 2 CR (Lillend has the skill role so Bard levels are linked) + 1 CR (Expert levels are never associated).
In the case of mixed classes (NPC and PC) you should apply the adjustment to the CR gained by each.
For example :
Human Fighter 5/Warrior 5 = CR 4 (Fighter 5 - 1) + CR 3 (Warrior 5 - 2) = CR 7
Minotaur Warrior 4/Druid 4 = CR 4 (Base Monster) + CR 2 (Warrior 2 - 2) + CR 3 (Druid 4 - 1) = CR 9
If your NPC levels are 2 or less, you don't add anything the CR for them, same with the PC levels being 1.
Human Warrior 5/Fighter 1 = CR 3
Human Fighter 5/Warrior 1 = CR 4
EDIT : And, if you equip them at the same level as the PC's, boost their CR by 1 at the end, not 1 per class.