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First, some other threads on Acrobatics and Grappling:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/acrobatics
[...] Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
So my basic question is, "Is it appropriate to add a creature's Acrobatics ranks to their CMD?" Note that I'm not asking about the Acrobatics modifier, as that would add the Dex modifier twice. I'm only asking about ranks (with or without the +3 bonus for a class skill).
I'm asking because it seems like a situational bonus: a creature that spends points on Acrobatics should be much more difficult to grapple. Or at least the initial grab should be more difficult although once grappled perhaps it shouldn't apply.
Opinions?
So my basic question is, "Is it appropriate to add a creature's Acrobatics ranks to their CMD?" Note that I'm not asking about the Acrobatics modifier, as that would add the Dex modifier twice. I'm only asking about ranks (with or without the +3 bonus for a class skill).Opinions?
The same logic would imply that the acrobatics rank should be added to AC, since someone trained in acrobatics would be harder to hit.
Actually, there is a mechanic-in-place to reflect this:
Special: If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.
You just need to be actively evading, and if you're skilled enough, it does help.
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Hmm.
I have a grapple monster in my PC party whose solution to every problem is to walk up and grapple the opponent. With a CMB of 32+ depending on raging or not (for the Str bonus) I need some way to tone him down. The last encounter was with stone giants throwing rocks, but his normal AC is very high as well. :-/
Since the CMD description says other relevant modifiers can be added, I was hoping others might agree that ranks in Acrobatics would be relevant. ;-)
Okay, thanks for the input. :)
Hmm.
I have a grapple monster in my PC party whose solution to every problem is to walk up and grapple the opponent. With a CMB of 32+ depending on raging or not (for the Str bonus) I need some way to tone him down. The last encounter was with stone giants throwing rocks, but his normal AC is very high as well. :-/
Since the CMD description says other relevant modifiers can be added, I was hoping others might agree that ranks in Acrobatics would be relevant. ;-)
Okay, thanks for the input. :)
That's a toughie. It's hard to counter it without making every monster an escape artist.
Off the top of my head, I'd suggest multiple opponents. He can only grapple one target at a time, right?
Or ranged attack monsters/characters. Can't close, can't grapple.
Don't forget that he gains the grapple condition as well! Is he vulnerable to other attacks while he's grappling? Oh, and how's his CMD? Can HE be pinned? Also remember that characters don't have to try to break a grapple. They can also attack, try to cast spells or other actions. Recently we had a dwarf grappled by a giant frog. Instead of breaking the grapple, he just hammered on it (literally).
Granted, you don't want to completely trash his ability, after all, he made the character, let him be wonderful where he wants to be. But if it's crashing the fun, remember that at the heart of the game, it's all just rock-paper-scissors. He may be the rock, but you've got the paper (just not all the time).
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Hmm.
I have a grapple monster in my PC party whose solution to every problem is to walk up and grapple the opponent. With a CMB of 32+ depending on raging or not (for the Str bonus) I need some way to tone him down. The last encounter was with stone giants throwing rocks, but his normal AC is very high as well. :-/
Since the CMD description says other relevant modifiers can be added, I was hoping others might agree that ranks in Acrobatics would be relevant. ;-)
Okay, thanks for the input. :)
I have found the only remedy for a munchkin is swift death, removal of the Spell Compendium from play, an evil cursed book that lowers their prime specialty attribute, or uninviting them. lol
If the CMB is 32+ legitimately - well, more power to him. Just ensure your encounters include diverse creatures, and plenty of them. While powerful, he will be wrestling with the Dire Bear Mauler until the cows come home, and the rest of the party will point out to him that they're drowning in targets, so "wrestling games" need to stop. lol
As for the addition of Acrobatics.......... I am not fond of enhancing the CMB with skill bonuses other than those already defined in the rules... Base, str, size. As a GM, if it made sense, I would add the aforementioned +3 for acrobatics as a synergy bonus - but I don't think that is the solution path for your problem.
If your player is a true grapple monster (meaning that's ALL he does in-gam) then he's probably found something he's trying to exploit. This is munchkanism imho. If he's a legitimate barbarian with a high CMB, - then hey - - - - let him have his day in the grapple sun. We don't bawk at evokers who blast with fire, so shouldn't punish the barbarian who happens to give good hugs. lol
-just my 2 cp
=Pax
I'm asking because it seems like a situational bonus: a creature that spends points on Acrobatics should be much more difficult to grapple. Or at least the initial grab should be more difficult although once grappled perhaps it shouldn't apply.
I certainly agree that a creature with (many) ranks in Escape Artist should be difficult to grapple. But what is it about the Acrobatics skill in particular that should make it hard to grapple someone?
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Thanks everyone. :)
I believe this Bbn has a legitimate 32 CMB, meaning that while the entire build is focused specifically on CMB/CMD, there doesn't appear to be anything illegal. It is a strange build however, Bbn2/Mnk2/Sor1/DD4. The bbn's Animal Fury(Ex) power combined with Greater Grapple makes the character nigh unstoppable. The Animal Fury power allows for a bite attack prior to any maintain/escape grapple checks, so he can use the bite twice per round with Greater Grapple. Add in an amulet of mighty fists and that bite attack by itself is pretty hefty! I'm thinking of toning it back to once per round, but I'm not sure how much of a nerf that is. I need to crunch some numbers.
I'm asking because it seems like a situational bonus: a creature that spends points on Acrobatics should be much more difficult to grapple. Or at least the initial grab should be more difficult although once grappled perhaps it shouldn't apply.I certainly agree that a creature with (many) ranks in Escape Artist should be difficult to grapple. But what is it about the Acrobatics skill in particular that should make it hard to grapple someone?
I'm thinking of a football player's ability to dodge out of a tackle. They may have a high Dex to begin with, but training (in the form of ranks spent on Acrobatics) would also apply. Isn't that why football players take dance lessons? That would be Acrobatics, not Escape Artist.
I haven't decided what I'm doing about this yet. Still considering...
Regarding keeping the player busy, the last encounter was against multiple opponents using ranged attacks (stone giants and one stone giant elder) so the mud slowed him down, but the ranged attacks with rocks didn't hit him -- a string of lousy rolls. However, I'm keeping tactics such as mentioned above in mind for future opponents. Some of the NPCs have been scrying on the party and are aware of some of their tactics...
Thanks everyone. :)
I believe this Bbn has a legitimate 32 CMB, meaning that while the entire build is focused specifically on CMB/CMD, there doesn't appear to be anything illegal. It is a strange build however, Bbn2/Mnk2/Sor1/DD4. The bbn's Animal Fury(Ex) power combined with Greater Grapple makes the character nigh unstoppable. The Animal Fury power allows for a bite attack prior to any maintain/escape grapple checks, so he can use the bite twice per round with Greater Grapple. Add in an amulet of mighty fists and that bite attack by itself is pretty hefty! I'm thinking of toning it back to once per round, but I'm not sure how much of a nerf that is. I need to crunch some numbers.
I'm asking because it seems like a situational bonus: a creature that spends points on Acrobatics should be much more difficult to grapple. Or at least the initial grab should be more difficult although once grappled perhaps it shouldn't apply.I certainly agree that a creature with (many) ranks in Escape Artist should be difficult to grapple. But what is it about the Acrobatics skill in particular that should make it hard to grapple someone?I'm thinking of a football player's ability to dodge out of a tackle. They may have a high Dex to begin with, but training (in the form of ranks spent on Acrobatics) would also apply. Isn't that why football players take dance lessons? That would be Acrobatics, not Escape Artist.
I haven't decided what I'm doing about this yet. Still considering...
Regarding keeping the player busy, the last encounter was against multiple opponents using ranged attacks (stone giants and one stone giant elder) so the mud slowed him down, but the ranged attacks with rocks didn't hit him -- a string of lousy rolls. However, I'm keeping tactics such as mentioned above in mind for future opponents. Some of the NPCs have been scrying on the party and are aware of some of their tactics...
If i am not mistaken wouldnt you lose the ability to rage when you become lawful for gaining monk levels.
If i am not mistaken wouldnt you lose the ability to rage when you become lawful for gaining monk levels.
It doesn't look like that's the case in PF. Nor does he lose monk abilities if he goes neutral or chaotic.
Though I would be hesitant to let him switch alignments so casually (i.e. to qualify for a class doesn't count as a significant enough reason to change alignments). Now, if he could put it in the story, that's different.
I'm curious where the +32 comes from. Here's my breakdown of the abilities
BAB +6, (which just barely peeks over the greater grapple requirement)
Improved Grapple +2,
Greater Grapple +2,
Animal Fury (if he succeeds on his attack)+2,
STR (assuming a normal 18 max +2 for race(if he's a half-orc, human or half-elf), +2 for level increases, +4 for Rage, +4 for dragon disciple equals STR 30), +10
That's only +22.
If he's ENLARGED, he gets another +1 for STR, and a +1 for size. Total +24.
You mentioned an amulet of mighty fists. Even at a +5, and if you allow it (a combat maneuver check isn't the same as an unarmed/natural attack, putting aside the fact that it is waaay out of the assumed wealth level for lvl. 9), he's only at +29. Which isn't quite +32. I suppose he could have an belt of strength or other str enhancement, too.
Still, that's pretty fierce. A stone giant is only at CMD 30!
I'd still point out that he's grappled as well. Meaning that he takes a -4 to DEX, can't move, and suffers a -2 to all attacks and maneuver checks (including his bite). If he's fairly squishy, he's vulnerable to heavy damage from friendly local melee fighters. Even an escape artist/freedom of movement character has to spend actions to wriggle out.
Also, when he's fighting reach critters, don't forget that they can get attacks of opportunity when he closes (not due to the grapple, but to movement). Also, remember to fight smart. Have the baddies use cover, difficult terrain, pack tactics (like fighting defensively with combat expertise and acrobatics as above) or each other to delay and damage. Also, remember to put in encounters that might not be able to be solved by grappling. Diplomacy, puzzles or traps can't be grappled with that well ;)
On the plus side, he really can't get THAT much better at it. Dragon disciple doesn't have any more strength boosts (other than dragon forms). He'll get BAB boosts, but that's about it. At level 16 he's at around an even chance to grapple an even CR critter (planetar, horned devil, ancient brass dragon). At 20th, he's down to around 50-60 percent chance (such as the pit fiend or ancient gold dragon). And if all else fails, he can try to grapple the Tarrasque.
While the build is extreme, it also seems to be roughly legal. But I would imagine it might get boring playing it. Maybe the novelty would wear off.
But remember, too, that it's OK to let the PCs be fantastic sometimes, though. Let him enjoy the fight--he's still probably not dealing as much damage as a straight fighter, after all (sure, he gets two attacks with his bite, but a 9th level fighter would get two attacks (or more) with a sword. A cleric or wizard would be laying down the heavy spells and deal way more damage (unless that annoying barbarian/monk/sorceror/dragon disciple is always in the area effect of their spells...heh.) A rogue could be sneak-attacking like a fiend, too. There's no reason to penalize him.
All in all, it seems rough, but not that bad. He's not cleaving, he's disabled himself by focusing on one opponent. He's not threatening attacks of opportunity, so baddies can move around him. He's taking tons of damage. He's not invulnerable to spells. I'd say he's not too bad.
As for acrobatics, dodge bonuses add to CMD if you actively evade. If you're equating Escape Artist mechanics and Acrobatics mechanics, then it should be an Acrobatics check or 10+acrobatics (which, maxes out at 10+hit dice (max ranks) +3(for class skill)+ dex bonus), or at 10th level(a CR9 opponent), with a 20 dex, 28.
Even if you add max ranks (say 9) to a CMD, a critter is still going to be easily grapple-able by this guy. AND he's going to get harder to break away from (since he'll probably pump his acrobatics, so his CMD will go through the rooof (imagine it with another 9 points added, which is what you're suggesting). It's a can of worms that gets nasty, since the CMD already includes a level dependent variable (base attack). Then you'll also hear the argument that acrobatics should increase normal armor class (which, again, it does when you're actively evading).
I would also say that football players probably take dance to get xp (since they can't defeat monsters), so it could also equate to 'base attack' and feats like 'dodge' and 'mobility'. Truthfully, it might also fall under 'peform (dance)'. ;) As a football player wriggles from an opponent's grasp, he probably slows down (i.e. spends a standard action to either break the grapple or to 'fight' defensively).
Went on too long, but I hope that helps.
Whoops, also, has anybody found a rule that limits sizes when grappling?
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Thanks, Makarnak.
Your math is good, except a reincarnate spell brought him back as a bugbear so he gets Str +4.
The amulet is +0 with shock/fire energy damage so the bite attack deals 1d3+15(Str)+1d6(elec)+1d6(fire), an average of 23.5 and he can use for free as part of a grapple. :-/ In fact, if he hits he gets a +2 on his CMB for the associated grapple check.
I agree that he is sort of a "one trick pony". But try having your BBEGs pinned by this thing! There's literally nothing they can do to get away unless they have freedom of movement, dimension door, gaseous form, or huge ranks in Escape Artist (which often isn't enough). Some NPCs have been scrying the party though, so maybe a properly timed grease or similar would be a good idea. >D
The next section of the AP is against undead though, and he may find that grappling a spectre or wight isn't a particularly good idea! ;-)
I appreciate all of the effort you put into your previous post. It helps me to have someone else's point of view.
Oh, and I don't know of any size limits while grappling. I think the size modifiers are too small, though. I'm thinking of doubling them. We do have a house rule that extremely heavy creatures gets bonuses against tripping but not grappling. (Similar to the four-legged bonus.)
Thanks, Makarnak.
Your math is good, except a reincarnate spell brought him back as a bugbear so he gets Str +4.
The amulet is +0 with shock/fire energy damage so the bite attack deals 1d3+15(Str)+1d6(elec)+1d6(fire), an average of 23.5 and he can use for free as part of a grapple. :-/ In fact, if he hits he gets a +2 on his CMB for the associated grapple check.
Hmm. Interestingly enough, in a 3.5 game that's on hold right now, we have a reincarnated clerical bugbear grapple monster (with permanent enlarge). I can't complain, though, I have a massive damage-dealing barbarian in that one.
Unfortunately, it is a problem when the BBEG is constantly grappled. But, a few suggestions: 1) damage resistance, like stoneskin (his bite isn't a magical attack/silver/adamantine, right?) 2) Fire shield (or similar spells and effects--salamanders, acid oozers, local area energy drainers and the like). Auto damage spells (like acid fog) at least should give him pause. 3) energy resistance: a tiefling enemy will at least block most of the energy damage. 4) grease spells on clothing, especially in preparation. 5) Illusion spells. If he grapples the wrong thing, then the right thing isn't grappled. Heh. 6) dispel magic works on items (amulet).
It's tough to deal with it, but sometimes if you just let the party win easily often enough, they'll say something about it, too. Incorporeal critters are a good foil as well (just let him grab some things occasionally). Grappling vampires, succubi, wights and the like can be...bad as well. Oh and vampires with gaseous form? Heh.
Also, you can 'target' him with things that hit his weaknesses: intelligence drainers, trips, knockdowns and the like.
Good luck! Maybe you should make a BBEG be a wrestler like himself, or his opposite. Give him a real fight and then make the baddy a recurring villain.
Oh, and one more suggestion (granted, I don't know what the rest of the party is like). Have combat goals that don't involve killing the bad guy: protect someone or something, try to flip the switch to stop the super-bad-magical-thingy, and the like. It can throw dedicated folks off and makes for a fun challenge.