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While I understand the arguments being made here, I have to disagree. As someone who subscribes to every Pathfinder line, I would be sort of miffed to discover that a large portion of the content I'd already paid for was being sold to me again in another book. Paizo's flagship product is their Adventure Path, so angering people who support that line is probably not in their best interest. I imagine their position on this issue might change if another line becomes their bread and butter.
Additionally, I don't really understand why you need all the crunch. If you want it, it's available for you to purchase. If that's too high a cost for you to get another bloodline or more monsters or some new spells and magic items, then just play with the Core Rulebook and Bestiary. Any crunch on top of that is gravy.
+1. I don't mind paying for the crunch twice (such as the Graveknight, hopefully, being in Bestiary II), but at the same time I don't want every core book to be a simple compilation of all the crunch in APs. And I love the current content in APs, i.e. I wouldn't want to see them losing adventure-speficic crunch, either.
Creative Director
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The kicker is that Jason said they do have exactly what I'm looking for, and they won't give it to us. :(
Someone even offered to convert it to a web page for them and they said "no."
Jason didn't say that, I did. I'm sorry that disappoints you, but as it turns out, we can't give away everything.
The Pathfinder RPG is completely playable as-is. It works, period. We did not specifically hold out things that we consider a necessary part of the game just to make you buy a second book.
If you buy a car, and they offer to sell you a radio separately for it, does that mean your car is incomplete, and won't run?
If a video game later offers downloadable content providing a new gun, or a new map, does it mean the original release was flawed?
If I sell you a book full of photos of Kirsten Bell in her skivvies, and later she releases *more* photos of her in her skivvies, is the original book broken? (Sorry for the analogy... there was a lot of Veronica Mars going on at my house last night.)
The concept that offering you more options later invalidates the totally functional original is ludicrous. It's not even like a cell phone, where if you want one with the latest camera you have to buy the whole thing over again. With us, you can buy *just* the add-on... and we're working toward letting you know whenever those become available.
Also, I'd like to point out that the original question was asked at 6:48pm on a Friday, and some people were disappointed that it took James Jacobs - the biggest workhorse in the Paizo stable - until Sunday to answer it. That's SUNDAY, people. A theoretical day of rest. We all love our jobs, and the folks on the messageboards, but let's have a little perspective. All work and no play means people coming through the door with an axe on Monday morning, and then NOBODY would get any new content. :P
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Creative Director
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James are the rules in the AP's open content? For example is the bloodline in the #29 AP open? If it is then there is really no reason for complaint as it can be added to SRDs everywhere.
ALL of the rules content we've published in Pathifnder, with the exception of two monsters (the Deep Crow and the Coeurl) are open content. We spell that out on the legal page at the front of every volume.
This does include the bloodline in #29.
Just remember that if you pick up open content, you have to comply with the Open Gaming license and reprint the OGL in your product, etc.
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You're misunderstanding the analogy. The mystery trilogy is the core books. The bits and pieces ripped out of core are the crunch being spread out amongst all the adventure paths. I'm being asked to buy 20 other books at $10 to $20 a pop for a single 'page' of mystery novel (a page of crunch for my core).
... Again, that's my complaint. I understand why you are doing it, you need to make money. It just doesn't sit well with me to waste my money like that. And no offense, it is a waste of my money. Not because you're putting out a bad product, not because it's not a quality book, but because I...
There is no analogy, there is no special effort to squeeze extra dollars out of people. Paizo is continuing to produce and sell the same product they produced before they went into the business of selling core rules. Look into the history of the product line, the core books were made so Paizo could continue making their AP product line.
In defense of James and the Paizo folks in general... this is one strange unfortunate side effect of making yourselves so available. Not that I would remotely argue in favor of a more WoTC style relationship with the fans/customers but by being so approachable AS WELL as available, this kind of thing is bound to happen. People get used to responses within minutes. A day is untenable. A few days and people start to imagine conspiracies.
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Again, that's my complaint. I understand why you are doing it, you need to make money. It just doesn't sit well with me to waste my money like that. And no offense, it is a waste of my money. Not because you're putting out a bad product, not because it's not a quality book, but because I get 0 (zero) use from anything other than the 1 page of crunch. Going back to my analogy, it's like paying for a romance novel to get the 1 page of my mystery. The entire romance novel is a waste of money to me, I only get any use from the one page.
I'm afraid that argument just seems unreasonable. I wouldn't mind paying for a compilation of crunch annually, because I like having it all in one book. I won't complain to them, however, for running a business in a way that makes it profitable.
I also wanted to chime in and say that I think you guys should keep doing it as you have. The balance of crunch to other content is nice and to me, this thread just screams that more people should get involved with the various databases to make this great OGL content more easily accessible. That applies to me, as well.
For those than don't want to comb through the APs there is an easy answer: don't.
The core rules line is where paizo makes large hardcover rule books. You can play the game just fine with only two books. There will be more rulesbooks coming. I'm sure there will be more bloodlines in the APG.
Everything else is really just extra. Cream for your coffee. It is the exact same products Paizo used to make and wants to continue to make. While I certainly would like for them to make more hardcover rulebooks, I know they will need to grow before they can produce more than 4 or so a year. I don't want them to stop producing the fine softcover books that they are known for.
The bloodline in question isn't really one that players would use, it's a villain bloodline. Sure, some players like to play villains. But that is fairly rare. In those rare cases, spend the cash to buy the pdf. The rest of you, don't worry about it and move on.
They have said they won't release an index unless it is up to their professional standards. I'm sure when they have caught up on all of their higher priority tasks (bringing book production back on schedule, compiling errata for reprints of core books, etc) they will eventually produce an online index. In the meantime the community has lots of resources to do these things. Who is up for the task?
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The crunch and new stuff in the monthly releases keeps me coming back. It is the main reason. Our group uses the Core rules. If I find something in the companions, chron, or AP's I can print them off from my handy PDF. I also keep a Onenote book of all the various rules my players might be interested in. The new content currently sits at 77 pages, counting prestige, spells, traits, feats and magic items. The mix in the AP is my ideal, half adventure, half new s!@$. This makes me happy and it would fill my heart with sadness and make my eyes rain if you changed it.
Who is up for the task?
It looks like a couple people have contacted me willing to invest some time and energy in this. I'd say for anyone interested in this keep an eye on d20pfsrd.com over the coming days and weeks to see if something develops. I'm optimistic we might have something cool shortly.
Ok fine, I won't bother complaining...
...I also won't waste my money. I was complaining in an attempt to get a Paizo compilation that has all the crunch in the adventures annually. I'd have given Paizo money for this product.
However, it's obvious that the attitude is, love the AP's or go suck lemons you athiest. I've had it up to my eyeballs with that sentiment. I'll buy rulebooks when they come out and that's it. I'll just take the OGL content that makes it onto websites and compile my own 'annual' and use it. I'm sorry Paizo has lost that income that they could have had from me, but, the flaming of people who don't like AP's has got me fed up with this. I won't bother commenting on anything even remotely connected to AP's going forward, it's a waste of breath.
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Ok fine, I won't bother complaining...
...I also won't waste my money. I was complaining in an attempt to get a Paizo compilation that has all the crunch in the adventures annually. I'd have given Paizo money for this product.
However, it's obvious that the attitude is, love the AP's or go suck lemons you athiest. I've had it up to my eyeballs with that sentiment. I'll buy rulebooks when they come out and that's it. I'll just take the OGL content that makes it onto websites and compile my own 'annual' and use it. I'm sorry Paizo has lost that income that they could have had from me, but, the flaming of people who don't like AP's has got me fed up with this. I won't bother commenting on anything even remotely connected to AP's going forward, it's a waste of breath.
This isn't what you asked for, your very first post in this thread you asked Paizo to pull crunch out of APs and put it where it "belongs":
mdt demands!: "Things like new bloodlines and such should be part of the core books, not spread out piecemeal in 20 or 30 adventure supplements. :("
If you'd said "PLEASE compile your content into a single rules supplement every year" then no one would complain. Instead you suggested Paizo pull the fun crunchy bits from their APs which many people know and love. If you don't want the APs then fine, but making demands about what sort of content belongs in a product you aren't interested in is ridiculous.
MDT you have a sense of entitlement that I do not understand.
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The self-centered whinging I've seen here has literally flabbergasted me.
I work IT. I work long hours. And it's work I enjoy - or I wouldn't be able to do it all the time. But if I got complaints because I didn't devote my weekend to answering random questions from customers, I'd go postal. I already sometimes resent being on call one week every other month, and that's much less intrusive than these demands on Paizo employees' free time and business models.
Really? I mean...really?
I'll stop here before I lose it.
And everyone at Paizo? Thank you for your time, your excellent products, your standards, your attention to detail and your passion for producing gaming products.
This complaint makes negative sense.
It makes little enough sense to complain about additional rules in other books. Beyond the "we need money to buy food to eat" part of the vile, money-grabbing scheme, which is a generally very viable argument, there is that thing about it making sense to invent new stuff to better suit an adventure.
For example, we have a really disgusting hag in a book. They made her a sorcerer. And then they thought "wouldn't it be great to have a new bloodline that focusses on pestilence?" and did it, making it a better book for it.
It's not as if it is one of those really, really important and necessary bloodlines, anyway. If we were talking about the devil bloodline or something like that....
Sure, they could release it in a rulebook and then reference it in the adventure, but then they would lose a lot of spontaneity.
And let's even forget the part where we don't even know whether a compilation of "disjointed rules stuff we released this year" annual compilation is actually a good idea.
If this was the whole story, I probably would not share your point of view, but I would understand it. Completionist being forced to buy a 20-dollar product for a single bloodline.
But there's that other thing that not only robs this tantrum of any sense, it actually catapults it into negative sense territory:
The bloodline is open content!
Like almost everything rules-related Paizo releases.
And here comes the fun part:
If you had not complained about this while being hostile, compared the Paizo fans to religious fanatics, and played the little boy who doesn't get his will and so he runs into the woods, digs a hole and sits in it crying - if you had just said that you didn't buy APs but would like the bloodline, could maybe someone tell me about it or reprint it somewhere because it's open content, I'm sure one of those crazed sun cult idiots you despise so would have proven the helpful type and made the thing available to you.
And everyone at Paizo? Thank you for your time, your excellent products, your standards, your attention to detail and your passion for producing gaming products.
I can only agree with her there.
I also want to thank you for your accessibility and that you basically give away all your rules.
I'm sure I'll be slaughtered by the hordes of fanboys but whatever...
I don't think saying "I have a handful of money. I'd like to give some of it to you in exchange for Product X which does not exist at this time" is demonstrating a sense of entitlement.
I don't see why people want to jump on the posters case for wanting something and saying he's willing to pay for it. In fact I happen to think his idea is a good one, a yearly "best of" compilation. I too would probably pay for such a thing. I do not run Adventure Paths, nor do I use the official Pathfinder setting material. However, I'd sure like to use lots of the crunchy bits for my homebrew.
I just...
1) have no idea what is in what book, and even though a list exists telling me where I could find something, I can't have it, and
2) even if I knew what book X was in, I don't want to spend X dollars which is of course more than a fair price for an entire book, but I just want article Y, which comprises 1/25th of that products entire word count (if that). I just want that one bit. Fine, I can't have just that one bit right away. I'll wait a year for that one bit plus a lot of other bits to be collected into a compilation and then gladly pay for it.
I don't know why that's a bad thing to want. Maybe someone can help me understand.
Now, in general, while I greatly appreciate the quality of much of the product Paizo produces I have no special need or desire to imagine them as any more special than the guys who assembled my van. They build a product I purchase. I don't have to tell the people at GM how special they are, I don't have to thank them, I don't have to do anything other than sign the check and drive my van off of the lot. GM needs to keep me happy if they want me to buy my next car from them. I don't know why this industry should be any different. You make the customer happy and provide the things he wants or he goes elsewhere. Some people will say "screw him we don't need customers like that" but man I tell you, you can only make that decision so many times.
There is an exchange of $ for product. some people seem to want to idolize the designers of the game. Again, while I appreciate their work, I don't fall all over them telling them every 5 seconds how awesomely cool they are either. I mean sheesh its not like they resuscitated your mother after a heart attack or something. They create a game book or two. Let's keep things in perspective lol
James/Jason/Sean/everyone at Paizo, that does *not* mean I do not appreciate your work and the incredible responsiveness you guys show on these boards. You do certainly seem to go above and beyond when it comes to responding to customers, even if sometimes those responses aren't what people want to hear.
a bunch of uncalled for stuff
I don't think saying "I have a handful of money. I'd like to give some of it to you in exchange for Product X which does not exist at this time" is demonstrating a sense of entitlement.
That isn't what he said, though:
Things like new bloodlines and such should be part of the core books, not spread out piecemeal in 20 or 30 adventure supplements.
He wants there to be no new rules in the adventures. No items, no bloodlines, no spells, no monsters, nothing. They have to be 100% recycled content from the core rulebooks to satisfy mdt.
That isn't what he said, though:
Things like new bloodlines and such should be part of the core books, not spread out piecemeal in 20 or 30 adventure supplements.
I do not agree with that sentiment. Paizo can distribute their product however they like (obviously).
He wants there to be no new rules in the adventures. No items, no bloodlines, no spells, no monsters, nothing. They have to be 100% recycled content from the core rulebooks to satisfy mdt.
Admittedly I did not read every post in this thread (mostly the last dozen or so).
In the end however, I got the impression he was saying "Fine, if you won't do it my way, then give me a compilation which I would be happy to pay for" at which point everyone was already in mad feeding frenzy stage, happily destroying him for dissing Paizo. I'm simply saying that people should relax and stop attacking people who have negative opinions of the great and powerful oz.. er Paizo.
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I'm sure I'll be slaughtered by the hordes of fanboys but whatever...
I don't think saying "I have a handful of money. I'd like to give some of it to you in exchange for Product X which does not exist at this time" is demonstrating a sense of entitlement.
I don't see why people want to jump on the posters case for wanting something and saying he's willing to pay for it....
Please go back and read my previous post and Zurai's post refer to. No one is irritated that mdt asked for a compilation of rules. People are irritated that he is asking Paizo to change the way they publish APs (which he doesn't buy) so he can have every bit of rules without having to waste money on APs.
It's not what he wants, it's that he wants to trash a great product line so paizo staff can dedicate their time to making rules only splat books for him.
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I too think a compilation of where various feats or other nuggets of crunch exist throughout Paizo's published works is a grand idea. An official one would be nice, a fan created one would be nice as well.
I think I made it clear in my response that I was upset with the OP's attitude about being "ignored" by not getting an official response from Paizo over the weekend.
To be clear, I'd be perfectly happy to buy a PDF of any rules compilation Paizo puts out. I don't object to the idea at all. As the Ogre said, it was mdt's stance on removing all that from the adventures that caused me to respond. The ability to create high-quality adventures would be crippled (not eliminated, but very badly harmed) if the writers had to stick to only what was available in the core rules.
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That isn't what he said, though:
Things like new bloodlines and such should be part of the core books, not spread out piecemeal in 20 or 30 adventure supplements.I do not agree with that sentiment. Paizo can distribute their product however they like (obviously).
He wants there to be no new rules in the adventures. No items, no bloodlines, no spells, no monsters, nothing. They have to be 100% recycled content from the core rulebooks to satisfy mdt.Admittedly I did not read every post in this thread (mostly the last dozen or so).
In the end however, I got the impression he was saying "Fine, if you won't do it my way, then give me a compilation which I would be happy to pay for" at which point everyone was already in mad feeding frenzy stage, happily destroying him for dissing Paizo. I'm simply saying that people should relax and stop attacking people who have negative opinions of the great and powerful oz.. er Paizo.
Perhaps, but mdt repeatedly suggests that rules content should be separate from the APs and Golarian material. It's not ONE post but almost all of his posts except for his last seem along this line.
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Again, I'd be happy to have this list on d20pfsrd.com but for whatever reasons, Paizo can't share what they have (probably a legal thing). With that said there is nothing stopping us fans from compiling such a list and maintaining it ourselves. If anyone wants to step up on this you probably know where to find me. If not, its jreyst@gmail.com.
Jreyst, just sent you an email
Jreyst, just sent you an email
Got it! Glad to have you on the ever growing team! Oh and by the way, I think you are officially (well as soon as I add you in) collaborator #100!
:)
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Creative Director
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A compilation product that brings together all of a year's rules crunch is an interesting idea... but a complex one that, in the end, is probably not worth the additional trouble. The main problem is that we don't create additional rules content with the goal to fill a book of a specific size. As a result, every year, this theoretical compilation product would either be a different size, or we'd have to add NEW content to it to bring it up to a standardized size (cutting content from a compilation being a silly idea to begin with). We can't just decide how big a book is on a whim like that. Our books are the sizes they are because of a lot of factors; the way the printing industry works, our break-evens on cost versus size, shipping concerns, bookstore requirements, and so on and so on.
Nevermind the concern about where we'd get the time and resources to add a book like this to our schedule (replacing a book in an existing line isn't an option due to budget concerns and the fact that we don't want to ask our subscribers to buy what'd essentially be a reprint). We COULD add a compilation product to the hardcover line, I guess, but that'd mean doing only 2 original hardcovers a year rather than 3. And to be honest, a hardcover that's a grab-bag of all sorts of rules content is a MUCH harder sale to bookstores and distributors over a focused rulebook.
And even if someone doesn't like the Adventure Paths... the truth of the matter is that our Adventure Paths are what keeps Paizo in business. The rulebooks are a GREAT way to grow our business, but the steady, solid, dependable income we get from the Adventure Path line is our baseline; it's what pays the bills, basically. It's also a multiple award-winning line, and it's one that the VAST majority of our customers love and adore. The format basically saved Dungeon back in the day at about issue #100 from being cancelled, in fact. We've basically BUILT Paizo on the back of Adventure Paths, and with every one we get better at building them, I hope. As a result, drastically changing the way we build Adventure Paths and the content we put in them (which specifically includes new rules content... we've been doing that from the very first adventure of the very first Adventure Path back in Dungeon #95) is NOT in Paizo's best interest.
In closing, I do want folks to try to stay friendly. And that goes for both sides of the issue.
MDT, again, I'm sorry if what works for Paizo doesn't work for you. But in this case, I feel very confident in saying that you're an exception to the norm when it comes to what folks want. I listen to every comment and criticism and suggestion folks post here, even if I don't reply to them all, but in this case, your suggestion simply isn't one that's viable for Paizo to tackle. The gracious thing at that point would be to accept that and simply support us by buying the books you DO like (or perhaps vote with your wallet by not buying Paizo products). Insulting other posters and lashing out at the way we do things with comments like "love the AP's or go suck lemons you athiest" do not engender feelings of goodwill toward you.
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Creative Director
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In any case, since this thread's got a really ugly tone to it in places and is threatening to explode into a flame war, I'm locking it down. I feel that I've addressed the OP's requests and concerns. If folks want to talk about building a list compilation of rules content or the like, please start a new thread.