I think they are doing more re-evaluating. The players series hasn't sold as well as they hoped, I heard somewhere.
I think they are doing more re-evaluating. The players series hasn't sold as well as they hoped, I heard somewhere.
The players series sucked, IMHO. I didn't buy a single one of those. And I'm sure you'll agree that it's getting to the point where the price is going up and the quantity is inverse.
Agreed, and if they think they can just sell the same miniature models via heroscape, then they seriously need to re-evaluate.
I have bought heroscape miniatures and converted them to 1 inch bases, so why they do not make that a standard (user D&D miniature standard base sizes) is beyond me. But the only reason I did buy them, is because they offered some different choices, e.g. shades and orcs, or orc grunts.
I think they are doing more re-evaluating. The players series hasn't sold as well as they hoped, I heard somewhere.The players series sucked, IMHO. I didn't buy a single one of those. And I'm sure you'll agree that it's getting to the point where the price is going up and the quantity is inverse.
Yeah, too expensive, rehash of COMMON past miniatures, I mean maybe if they had been rares, that would be something. Get those miniatures that you missed, but commons? WTF? I mean if there was a pack with Warduke, King Obould Many-Arrows, Orc Wardrummer, and the Warforged Barbarian from the Wardrums set, hell I buy that and I already own 3 of those 4. But commons? Seriously?
Yeah, too expensive, rehash of COMMON past miniatures, I mean maybe if they had been rares, that would be something. Get those miniatures that you missed, but commons? WTF? I mean if there was a pack with Warduke, King Obould Many-Arrows, Orc Wardrummer, and the Warforged Barbarian from the Wardrums set, hell I buy that and I already own 3 of those 4. But commons? Seriously?
Exactly. Release some of the rares in packages and they'd be getting my dollars (and/or it'd bring down the price in the secondary market to make the individuals more reasonable to acquire).
Well the miniatures quality hasn't improved very much, the loss of the actual game that goes along with it was probably a huge factor in sales.
Plus the damn monster boxes still being random for absolutely no reason at all doesn't help either.
Actually the reason they scrapped the DDM game and went to the current model is because sales sucked. So it's unlikely they will go back to that.
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Actually the reason they scrapped the DDM game and went to the current model is because sales sucked. So it's unlikely they will go back to that.
The model is the same thing just without a game! You just get to see one of the monsters in the box first. They still even come with stat cards.
So you take nearly the exact same product, remove one of it's uses and sales aren't suddenly going to improve obviously.
I liked the D&D Miniatures game. We could just play 4e to the same effect, but it's not the same. :(
Actually the reason they scrapped the DDM game and went to the current model is because sales sucked. So it's unlikely they will go back to that.The model is the same thing just without a game! You just get to see one of the monsters in the box first. They still even come with stat cards.
So you take nearly the exact same product, remove one of it's uses and sales aren't suddenly going to improve obviously.
I liked the D&D Miniatures game. We could just play 4e to the same effect, but it's not the same. :(
The reason why the dropped the game line was because they saw that very few people were buying the miniatures for the actual miniature game, but instead were using it for roleplaying. The miniature game was therefore just an added bonus ultimately, and so they dropped it in favor of just making for roleplaying.
While I prefer to purchase non-random miniatures, random distribution lowers the costs on many individual miniatures. This is why the PHB sets have had sucky sales. Half the miniatures are repeats of commons from other sets, and since there were no rares or commons, they all costed pretty much the same, so no cheapies.
Just make all good miniatures and charge a fair price for them. The hunk of plastic, paint, and mold cost varies very little from a crappie mini to a great one. The fact is, they are just tiny plastic toys and should cost what little plastic toys cost. Greedy douche-bags.
Randomness and collectability were the two things that made the line feasible.
Randomness allowed the production of large enough runs to make plastic and pre-paint a valid option, because game shops and suppliers did not need to choose which miniatures to stock. They could simply order identical boosters. With the low margins a game specialist store usually endures, anything that can reduce the risk of overstocking is welcome. Randomness allowed the scale of production that could pay someone to paint your miniature for you, and the plastic reduced the weight for online orders, including orders for singles from middlemen, a new industry that created much of the momentum of the mini line.
Collectability rewarded purchase of multiple sets, again lifting the size of each production run, and thus lowering the unit price enough to create larger runs of minis, and thus, more variety. The main lesson of MtG was nothing new. Baseball cards created the idea of 'chase' cards. Applying the idea of rarity to miniatures increased volume enough to move thousands of types of mini.
We never had it so good.
That said, the actual choice of minis was often made by which molds were available cheapest. It is no secret that many of the minis were retreads of minis by other companies that went bust trying to sell non-random, non collectable minis made of pewter.
It was not, and is not the optimal choice for the gamer, who would be best served by packs of clearly themed minis. It was, and is the business model that best serves the company that makes them.
If I had my druthers, minis would be sold by CR, to match the players as they progress. One would buy a box of orcs, animals, goblins, kobolds, skeletons, zombies and similar at the start, and would buy sets of tougher opponents later on. Great for the consumer, but I would have bankrupted the mini line if I were in charge.
What about all the people who hate randomness and thus refuse to buy in who otherwise would? I don't think I'm buying it, although, yeah, it clearly is a strategy to make a lot more money off of something that is pretty cheap to make.
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I hit the pre-owned miniatures case at my FLGS all the time, its good to be able to see whichever minis are in the case and purchase them on an individual basis. A good hobby shop will probably have a similar case, but someone still has to purchase the base box to trade them back in. That means that much of the time the case remains empty until a new set arrives.
What about all the people who hate randomness and thus refuse to buy in who otherwise would? I don't think I'm buying it, although, yeah, it clearly is a strategy to make a lot more money off of something that is pretty cheap to make.
Yeah, they're definitely losing out on customers like yourself. If they were to switch to non-random, though, inevitably the packs that include the more desirable minis (let's face it, dragons are popular, aboleths not so much) will disappear faster while the less desirable packs collect dust on store shelves and in warehouses.
I don't pretend to speak for everyone, but I know that, given the choice between a minis pack with a green dragon and a pack with a grey unicorn, I have and I will buy the dragon first.
What about all the people who hate randomness and thus refuse to buy in who otherwise would? I don't think I'm buying it, although, yeah, it clearly is a strategy to make a lot more money off of something that is pretty cheap to make.Yeah, they're definitely losing out on customers like yourself. If they were to switch to non-random, though, inevitably the packs that include the more desirable minis (let's face it, dragons are popular, aboleths not so much) will disappear faster while the less desirable packs collect dust on store shelves and in warehouses.
I don't pretend to speak for everyone, but I know that, given the choice between a minis pack with a green dragon and a pack with a grey unicorn, I have and I will buy the dragon first.
That's the thing that they have said time and time again on why they haven't wwent full singles route. They realize that for them to make good money the quality needs amped and the minis ALL need to be sell outs or they lose out. Every game store will buy a ton of beholders, dragons, kobolds and gobs etc. because they sell. But that production run on Kuo-toa would be niche at best as would any non orc/goblin humanoid. So yes the big names would fly off shelves so to speak, but the little stuff the niche stuff wouldn't so they wouldn't get made and then people would complain and etc. Thus the model they have employed. Now that is all regardless that some of us are of the opposite mind having our fill of goblins and orcs etc. but there you have it.
On a personal note I did buy one of those ugly unicorns off the secondary market for a dollar, because its cheaper than the warhorse and the same size so it does the same job, and FWIW the female human barbarian hero mini is a cool repaint of the frenzied berserker rare that is uber expensive and she was free from a game day event so take that for what it's worth. :)
Regarding the argument:
What, people are going to buy all dragons and no goblins and orcs? Sell the dragons separately and price them higher. Sell niche packs that focus on certain environments or creatures for a more limited time and make the stuff that people need regularly and buy more of available long term. Not buying the argument. Collectible randomization is based on a greed model instead of a natural demand model.
(let's face it, dragons are popular, aboleths not so much)
Funny, I would so buy an aboleth mini. In two years my game has "fought" one dragon. By fought I mean rescued, befriended, then went on a side quest to gain the blessings of a god to make it smarter.
I understand the need to have popular monsters in packs, but I would certainly buy more packs if I had a better idea if what I was getting.
(let's face it, dragons are popular, aboleths not so much)Funny, I would so buy an aboleth mini. In two years my game has "fought" one dragon. By fought I mean rescued, befriended, then went on a side quest to gain the blessings of a god to make it smarter.
I understand the need to have popular monsters in packs, but I would certainly buy more packs if I had a better idea if what I was getting.
But did you buy an aboleth. I know my FLGS still has dangerous delves packs with aboleths and unicorns sitting on the display.
Regarding the argument:
What, people are going to buy all dragons and no goblins and orcs?
People will buy dragons, and they'll buy goblins and orcs. But people will buy fewer kuo-toas, half-illithid lizardfolk (not kidding), minotaur statues, and other such relatively unpopular miniatures. Basically, I'm sure WotC could do decent business producing only minis for things that would sell like hotcakes - the staples of adventuring campaigns, like dragons, goblins, orcs, etc. But the less frequently used monsters would not be represented among these, and that would be a real shame.
The "natural demand" model is simply not feasible at a price point, and with a decent variety, that consumers are happy with. Randomization brings the cost down, allows them to include less popular but still important monster miniatures, and creates a relatively inexpensive secondary market where you can individually purchase whatever minis you might be looking for in particular.
(let's face it, dragons are popular, aboleths not so much)Funny, I would so buy an aboleth mini. In two years my game has "fought" one dragon. By fought I mean rescued, befriended, then went on a side quest to gain the blessings of a god to make it smarter.
I understand the need to have popular monsters in packs, but I would certainly buy more packs if I had a better idea if what I was getting.
Be that as it may, when I go into a store that carries minis I am consistently seeing few or no dragon packs and lots of aboleth and unicorn packs. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Be that as it may, when I go into a store that carries minis I am consistently seeing few or no dragon packs and lots of aboleth and unicorn packs. I do not believe this is a coincidence.
Having just looked at the pics of the Aboleth Slime Mage, I'm not surprised. It doesn't look very good.
Reaper has a Goroloth model that looks better.
If wizards made an aboleth that looked like the one here I'd snap it up.
Ok, I may grab the ugly one for cheap since they seem to be less than $2 on ebay.
I think the lesson is they need to make all of the visible minis A-list type and quality.
IMO they should have stuck with the random boosters (and accompanying lower price per unit). Buying by the case at least helps mitigate the random factor.
The comment upthread about how we never had it so good was spot on. I remember when a 16-booster case of archfiends came out: The price was still $10 a booster, so a case went for $144 (10% case discount at the FLGS; who knows what it was online), and they'd really gotten the figures looking pretty good. One hundred twenty-eight (largely very handsome) minis for under $150. *sigh*
The heroes series was a mistake from the get-go, as the price was simply too high.
EDIT: Hey Scott, is Tales from the Rusty Dragon dead? :(
Plus, Deinol, they changed the size. Sheer, unadulterated genius. No wonder I still can't understand their business model...the one they are likely changing even now.
EDIT: Bugley, good numbers.
Plus, Deinol, they changed the size. Sheer, unadulterated genius. No wonder I still can't understand their business model...the one they are likely changing even now.
*sigh* Yup. For everything WotC does that I like, they do two things I don't. Honestly, my best-case scenario is that Hasbro sells D&D. I know it isn't likely, but I can dream...
I like the quality of reaper pre-painted plastic miniatures, but the bases they choose are horrible. Like it or not, there is alot to be said about the tried and tested D&D miniature base, as the expense of realism (ground, terrain, etc.)
An from the discussion above I would support random miniatures again at the right price point, as the third party market will pick up the singles.
Perhaps add in specific purchases for large creatures, like Giants, Dragons, Troll, Ogres, etc. but at a premium.
Lets say you have a pack of 6 miniatures for $10. That comes out to be $1.67 a miniature, not bad. But lets say now it is random and some are more rare than others. That means the market value for those miniatures individually might be something like:
1 for $5
1 for $3
4 for $2 ($0.50 for each).
As for the reaper paint plastics, they are priced almost if not exactly the same as metal miniatures. I find that a bit silly personally, but I am miser and almost never pay more than $1.50 for a miniature, even after shipping.
But did you buy an aboleth.
When I saw the aboleth I totally dived onto it and wouldn't let go until I purchased it. I thought it was one of the coolest things ever. (not to mention the miniaturized 'mucus' cloud that he was rising from...)
Just had to say that...
While I disliked the random, I did like the pre-painted plastic packs.
Let's face it, even poorly painted minis still look better arrayed on a tabletop game than a wall of pure pewter minis. (well painted plastic or pewter still wins, though).
I liked the more obscure minis, and the fact that I could and did end up with a variety of common critters (or close to them anyways) as well as some more rare or bizarre ones.
Never bought a player pack because the price per mini was too high (and I already had minis for PCs from other sources).
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Wizards has been oddly quiet about DDM for a while now. Does anyone have any news on what they're planning for it? Are they going back to fully random or merging with Heroscape?
Random news has been leaking... supposedly (from the rumors I've heard online)the next set is supposed to be back to fully random (no visibles) while Heroscape and Ravenloft games reuse old minis sculpts (Ravenloft has the Huge Dracolich in it) and the heroes line is done. These are the rumors I have heard.
Maybe I'll just switch to heroscape and reaper. That would really be a disappointing change. Ugh.
My suggestion is that if you dislike random lots, then purchase the minis through a secondary market like ... Paizo's online store for example. Pick and choose what you want.
I've done that, with some satisfaction at scotching some. My suggestion: a big enough competitor come in and take their business from them, showing them how to turn an profit and make customers happy.
The problem is that we may want something and they're charging $50 bucks for it.
EDIT: Hey Scott, is Tales from the Rusty Dragon dead? :(
Nope! I'm just very behind on updating the site! D:
Well, WotC has promised that we'll hear SOMETHING regarding the future of minis at D&D Experience, and that they're not canceled (WotC_Trevor posted this over at the Wizards Community).
That said - Player's Handbook Heroes 3 got cancelled. Lisa confirmed with Alliance in the product thread that Streets of Shadow got cancelled.
I hate to be doom and gloom, especially because I want more D&D Minis, but I don't think the future is good. I think the announcement is going to be along the lines of "we make Heroscape now, buy that!"
If that's true, I don't see myself interested in Heroscape, so, trying to find the upside, now I can start purchasing Star Wars minis.
Unfortunately, on that front, there's rumblings over on the Wizards Community about the SW license coming up on expiration, and the possibility of it not being renewed by Lucas.
LAME, IF TRUE.
Anyone have any more information on that front, or care to speculate?
That said - Player's Handbook Heroes 3 got cancelled. Lisa confirmed with Alliance in the product thread that Streets of Shadow got cancelled.
Really? Streets of Shadow is still listed as being released on 4/21/10 on the products catalog at wizards.com.
Let me rephrase - Lisa confirmed that Alliance pulled this from their catalog. I interpreted that as cancelled (as did a couple of dealers I spoke to).
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I hope all goes well, but I do not see signs indicating it will.
WOTC has done well with Star Wars line except for a few massive failures.
No Revan, Basila, or HK for the KOTOR line? really!?
I know they have already been done; but Luke, Han,and Leia are in every set.
I did not need or want six or seven different gungans and another version of Panaka. They should have done a light side Revan, a dark side Basila, and a HK rocking a large repeater blaster or twin blasters. Like the one the mando rocked in the KOTOR game.
Its things like that, that come up and cause problems.
I had to step back and tell myself, Hey they have done well before this, they can make a mistake. Albeit a large one.
I think another one of their troubles is that their playtesters are so happy to be on board, they dont speak up when they should.
I mean how awesome was the large blue dragon from deathknell and the horned devil from blood war?! They were beautiful! So many great ones, like the chimera, ice devil, vampire count with the huge cloak, and on and on.
But then comes the weretiger that looks like its bowling, the green slaad that looks so happy I swear he is going to sing, not to mention all the weird combos. Where was the halfling sneaky classes, the gnome wizards, etc. I do not want a halfling paladin, and demand online indicates no one else did either.
Deinol, that Goroloth mini from Reaper looks absolutely beautiful! THAT is what an aboleth should look like. I think I need to get me one.
I'm slowly breaking into pewter minis... still use a lot of my WotC plastic ones... but, WOW that Goroloth... is just AWESOME looking.
(Any idea if it's a "Huge" size... or would it be "Large")?
I just started Second Darkness for my twice-a-month Sunday group... and if they make it that far... they do face-off against an aboleth or two during that Adventure Path. If it's closer to being Huge... I am so buying it.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
Nope! I'm just very behind on updating the site! D:
EDIT: Hey Scott, is Tales from the Rusty Dragon dead? :(
Awesome; thanks. :D
While I'm hoping the minis continue on for a while, I'm probably more bummed about the potential for Star Wars minis to go away. You can find minis of orcs and goblins in various places, and a lot of fantasy creatures aren't too hard to mimic with other minis, but there is nothing like actually having a Togorian mini, or a squad of Sith assassins to use on your players in a Star Wars game.
Plus, Galaxy at War (the miniatures release) was pretty weak. Not only did the models look awful, but unlike most of the other series, almost everything in the set was from the Clone Wars cartoon, which meant it didn't do much for my KOTOR era game (and I could never find a Cad Bane for our party "cowboy" Duro).
Tell me about it.
I wasn't too interested in SW anything for the longest time. I saw Jedi in the theater 17 times when I was 6-7, but lost my interest between then and the prequel trilogy.
I mean, I watched the prequels after the rush died down. Watched Clone Wars in the theater. Everything was "OK", but just catch my interest.
Then a buddy started running a SW game (D20/RCR), and I started reading Wookiepedia, and I've certainly recharged a fair amount of my inner fanboy.
I want droid armies, I want clone trooper battalions, storm trooper companies, tons of Jedi, all on my battlemat!
I just hope I've got enough time to buy up a supply!
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Deinol, that Goroloth mini from Reaper looks absolutely beautiful! THAT is what an aboleth should look like. I think I need to get me one.
I'm slowly breaking into pewter minis... still use a lot of my WotC plastic ones... but, WOW that Goroloth... is just AWESOME looking.
(Any idea if it's a "Huge" size... or would it be "Large")?
I just started Second Darkness for my twice-a-month Sunday group... and if they make it that far... they do face-off against an aboleth or two during that Adventure Path. If it's closer to being Huge... I am so buying it.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
I just looked on the reaper forums and found one with a dwarf for comparison link to thread , about half way down the thread
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Jeez, that thing looks very creepy.
Look for Reaper's P-65 line, they're very affordable and very good quality.
The Goroloth P-65 is $15 cheaper then the Dark Heaven's mini after all.
Hey there sanwah68 and Morgen thanks for the additional info.
It (looks) sounds like the Goroloth is fairly close to WotC mini "Huge" (at least close enough for me and my needs) and I so WANT that for a REAL aboleth... :D
Oh and Morgen thanks for the P-65 hint... but the one I've been looking at was from that line... it says the Goroloth is $29.99 which I don't mind paying for something of that quality. (So the Dark Heaven variety is $15.00 more huh?)
Well... I see from the Reaper site that they accept PayPal... so I think very soon I'm going to purchase me a Goroloth... and some paints/brushes and get to work on that bad boy.
Regards,
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
Just so that people know about the p-65 line.
The high lead content might not matter for most people, but it is something that people should be aware of, especially if they are women who might become pregnant or if they have young children.