When an Intellect Devourer is inside a host creature, should the abilities of the host be included in the stat block of the Intellect Devourer, or should they be a separate stat block? One stat block implies that it's considered 1 creature, whereas 2 stat blocks seems to imply that it's two creatures. Therefore my inclination is to combine them into one stat block.
Also, should the CR of the Intellect Devourer (not the encounter) change, implying one creature, or should the CR of the host and the Intellect Devourer be listed separately, implying 2 creatures?
I've read the Intellect Devourer entry several times, but either I'm missing the part where it is explained, or the entry seems to give no guidance on how the creature should be presented when encountered inside a host.
bump
So, assuming I'm writing an adventure, one stat block then?
Also, as I said, should the CR of the Intellect Devourer (not the encounter) change, implying one creature, or should the CR of the host and the Intellect Devourer be listed separately, implying 2 creatures?
You are correct, it doesn't really say.
I would say that the intellect devourer is itself a CR8 creature, but if it already has a body then said body is an adjustment to the CR. In other words, us the CR of the body, if the encounter is with that creature, and do not include the intellect devourer unless it is discovered or otherwise makes itself known.
Consider that an intellect devourer could have a stock of bodies kept helpless, and return to them periodically as each body dies in order to get a new one to better fight the party. The party, meanwhile, could be wondering why the monsters they are encountering always seem to know how best to fight them ...
Good to know. Separate CR, separate stat block. Thanks James.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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It seems odd to me that it would be two separate stat blocks, given the nature of the Intellect Devourer infestation.
I think that's a side effect of treating the creature as dominated, which is tremendously simpler than almost any other way of doing it. It does lose spells and spell-like abilities (but can use the ID's own spell-like abilities), so some creatures might need a drop in CR for that.
Some questions I can think of...
1) Does an intellect devourer inside a head retain blindsight? Or just the host's senses? I'd prefer they keep it.
2) Does an intellect devourer inside a head get its own actions, or just those of the host? Pretty sure the answer is "just those of its host"
3) Is an intellect devourer inside a head still hedged out by protection from evil as a summoned creature? I would hope no, since it makes them easier to detect, but as long as they keep their SR against it, not so bad. This one seems like it should go the way of (1), since both could be based on loss of line of effect.
4) Can an intellect devourer spellcaster cast (its own) spells with a host body? I'd hope yes, given that it can use its spell-like abilities. The idea of them having to crawl out to cast doesn't work that well for me :)
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It seems odd to me that it would be two separate stat blocks, given the nature of the Intellect Devourer infestation.I think that's a side effect of treating the creature as dominated, which is tremendously simpler than almost any other way of doing it. It does lose spells and spell-like abilities (but can use the ID's own spell-like abilities), so some creatures might need a drop in CR for that.
I'm halfway to convincing myself there need to be an Intellect Devourer Victim template.
1) Does an intellect devourer inside a head retain blindsight? Or just the host's senses? I'd prefer they keep it.
If it works like the psionic power 'touchsight' then they would lose it, as they are enclosed in the cranium of the host.
2) Does an intellect devourer inside a head get its own actions, or just those of the host? Pretty sure the answer is "just those of its host"
I would say that the intellect devourer's actions are controlling the host, so effectively 'just those of the host'. Remember, it is not dominating the host's brain, it is replacing it.
3) Is an intellect devourer inside a head still hedged out by protection from evil as a summoned creature? I would hope no, since it makes them easier to detect, but as long as they keep their SR against it, not so bad. This one seems like it should go the way of (1), since both could be based on loss of line of effect.
I don't know, but I would say that the host is not hedged out, insofar as it can reach through the PoE effect, even if the intellect devourer in its cranium cannot enter.
4) Can an intellect devourer spellcaster cast (its own) spells with a host body? I'd hope yes, given that it can use its spell-like abilities. The idea of them having to crawl out to cast doesn't work that well for me :)
Yes, I would assume that too - that it can use these abilities in addition to the host's abilities, but obviously not both at the same time due to restraints in the number of actions it can take.
Creative Director
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The easiest way to handle an intellect devourer encounter is to have the fight first be against the host body. Run that fight normally. Once the host body is slain, the intellect devourer clambers horrifically up out of the dead body's head and then you run a SECOND fight, this time against the intellect devourer (although the intellect devourer spends the first round of that second fight dazed).
1) Does an intellect devourer inside a head retain blindsight? Or just the host's senses? I'd prefer they keep it.
It uses the host's senses.
2) Does an intellect devourer inside a head get its own actions, or just those of the host? Pretty sure the answer is "just those of its host"
The host body, remember, is dead. It gets no actions. The intellect devourer is inside the body so it's just it's actions that happen. But it doesn't use its own stat block, really; it takes its actions using the host's abilities—only spellcasting and spell-like abilities aren't retained by the host (although the intellect devourer can use its spell like abilities or spells it may know through the host's body).
3) Is an intellect devourer inside a head still hedged out by protection from evil as a summoned creature? I would hope no, since it makes them easier to detect, but as long as they keep their SR against it, not so bad. This one seems like it should go the way of (1), since both could be based on loss of line of effect.
Nope; an intellect devourer inside a host doesn't have to worry about its protection from evil weakness.
4) Can an intellect devourer spellcaster cast (its own) spells with a host body? I'd hope yes, given that it can use its spell-like abilities. The idea of them having to crawl out to cast doesn't work that well for me :)
Yes; this is actually mentioned specifically in the monster's entry. As mentioned above, the intellect devourer couldn't use a host's spells or spell-like abilities, but it CAN use its own.
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Creative Director
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Ok, what about this.....once a host is damaged beyond the ability of the Intellect Devourer to operate it, does the Devourer have to exit? Or can it lay there playing possum in the body for a bit? I'd say yes, but I'd be interested to see a Paizo person's opinion.
As in: Once the host body is killed? Yeah; the intellect devourer has to exit; it can't lay possum inside the head.
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Creative Director
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How many Intellect Devourers does it take to kill an Ettin? (And what happens if there's only one of the little parasites?)
Now I'm picturing a turn-of-the-century Intellect Devourer getting ready to "drive" its latest victim, with goggles and a scarf.
Interesting idea!
Still, an ettin would be dead once the intellect devourer got in there. The intellect devourer would sit inside one of the ettin's heads and control the whole thing from there.
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How many Intellect Devourers does it take to kill an Ettin? (And what happens if there's only one of the little parasites?)
Now I'm picturing a turn-of-the-century Intellect Devourer getting ready to "drive" its latest victim, with goggles and a scarf.
Interesting idea!
Still, an ettin would be dead once the intellect devourer got in there. The intellect devourer would sit inside one of the ettin's heads and control the whole thing from there.
Could or would two or more share an ettin or hydra?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Still, an ettin would be dead once the intellect devourer got in there. The intellect devourer would sit inside one of the ettin's heads and control the whole thing from there.
Yep.
But, what if the coup de grace attempt doesn't kill the helpless victim? It does about 40 points of damage, on average. Ettins typically have 65.
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Creative Director
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Still, an ettin would be dead once the intellect devourer got in there. The intellect devourer would sit inside one of the ettin's heads and control the whole thing from there.Yep.
But, what if the coup de grace attempt doesn't kill the helpless victim? It does about 40 points of damage, on average. Ettins typically have 65.
Remember that there's a save to avoid death involved as well. In any event, an intellect devourer can only inhabit a dead body, so if its coup de grace doesn't kill a foe, it just has to try again next round.
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Creative Director
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Could or would two or more share an ettin or hydra?How many Intellect Devourers does it take to kill an Ettin? (And what happens if there's only one of the little parasites?)
Now I'm picturing a turn-of-the-century Intellect Devourer getting ready to "drive" its latest victim, with goggles and a scarf.
Interesting idea!
Still, an ettin would be dead once the intellect devourer got in there. The intellect devourer would sit inside one of the ettin's heads and control the whole thing from there.
Nope.
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Creative Director
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James thank you for official rullings I think however I will make mine able to inhabit a shared form if it has multiple heads. These ideas are just too good not to use.
No problem!
A few things to think about though:
Allowing multiple intellect devourers to run a single body would be like letting multiple people drive a single car. The car's not really built for it. You'll need to decide which intellect devourer is taking its turn, or you can throw the rules totally out of the window and let each intellect devourer take its own turn with the body—to the PCs, it'd look like the monster was cheating and taking multiple full-round actions in a single round, and that'd probably annoy your players greatly. And if you only let one intellect devourer run the show, then the others are kind of not really part of a major part of the encounter and that's kind of underwhelming.
From a purely flavor standpoint—Intellect devourers use other bodies to experience sensations and emotions and the like because their bodies cannot experience emotions or pleasure or pain or anything like that. This is a pretty personal experience for an intellect devourer, and they're not really into sharing that experience with others in the same body—sharing experiences with other intellect devourers in OTHER bodies is where it's at, because that way you don't have to deal with the distraction of having a bunch of other people in your ride or thinking in your thoughts.
The intellect devourer, in other words, steals an entire body, not just a brain or a mind. A creature with multiple bodies could do what you're looking for, but multiple-body creatures are not all that common. A creature with multiple heads still has one body.
The ability is called body-theft and not brain-theft for a reason, basically.
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A few things to think about
I was thinking along the lines of a queen ID telling the others what to do.
So the hyrda steps and moves plainly out of sync. Basically they are all moving against each other and trying to get the experiences and sense and just failing at it.
Maybe just one extra attack and yet lower the BAB for it to hit.
No problem!
A few things to think about though:
Allowing multiple intellect devourers to run a single body would be like letting multiple people drive a single car. The car's not really built for it. You'll need to decide which intellect devourer is taking its turn, or you can throw the rules totally out of the window and let each intellect devourer take its own turn with the body—to the PCs, it'd look like the monster was cheating and taking multiple full-round actions in a single round, and that'd probably annoy your players greatly. And if you only let one intellect devourer run the show, then the others are kind of not really part of a major part of the encounter and that's kind of underwhelming.
From a purely flavor standpoint—Intellect devourers use other bodies to experience sensations and emotions and the like because their bodies cannot experience emotions or pleasure or pain or anything like that. This is a pretty personal experience for an intellect devourer, and they're not really into sharing that experience with others in the same body—sharing experiences with other intellect devourers in OTHER bodies is where it's at, because that way you don't have to deal with the distraction of having a bunch of other people in your ride or thinking in your thoughts.
The intellect devourer, in other words, steals an entire body, not just a brain or a mind. A creature with multiple bodies could do what you're looking for, but multiple-body creatures are not all that common. A creature with multiple heads still has one body.
The ability is called body-theft and not brain-theft for a reason, basically.
Ah, but consider: Intellect devourers are psionic creatures that may have other powers not represented. A group could take control of a hydra or some other multi-headed creature and use their natural telepathic abilities to co-ordinate their actions effectively just as the original creature was able to do, forming themselves in to a single gestalt mind. Mindlink is a 1st level telepath power that could do this, and metaconcert is designed to form minds into a single powerful whole.
Now imagine the party going up against a 'stupid' hydra and suddenly being hit with a psionic blast as it moves to attack ....
Of course an group of intellect devourers wouldn't be doing this for any old reason, they'd need a good incentive such as defending a mutual lair, but the point is that they could do so. For pleasure and convenience they all use their own bodies, but for a coordinated defence, those that can withdraw and use the hydra to obliterate an attack would surely do so.
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Creative Director
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Well... Intellect Devourers are not psionic creatures in the Pathifnder RPG, and having powers not represented more or less is a cheat; you can make any monster anything by calling upon its "powers not represented."
Anyway... multiple intellect devourers in a single body just doesn't do it for me.
Contributor
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From a purely flavor standpoint—Intellect devourers use other bodies to experience sensations and emotions and the like because their bodies cannot experience emotions or pleasure or pain or anything like that.
This is the reason I came up with the idea for a cult of intellect devourers worshipping the demon lord, Socothbenoth. They were driven out of their vault in Orv by something even scarier, but their leader managed to take over the body of an elf cleric of Calistria and is setting up a "temple" where all manner of debauchery is encouraged.
I haven't sprung this on the party, just yet. The "cleric" will become a useful contact for some time, allowing the party to see the strange influence she is having on the town each time they return from an adventure.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Well... Intellect Devourers are not psionic creatures in the Pathifnder RPG, and having powers not represented more or less is a cheat; you can make any monster anything by calling upon its "powers not represented."
Anyway... multiple intellect devourers in a single body just doesn't do it for me.
Seems more like a job for a lawful brain-eater to me :)
In regards to the ID, does it share powers with its stolen body?
Can an ID make its host invisible?
Does the SR 23 apply to spells cast on the host? Obviously the host body would be immune to mind-affecting, since it's dead.
What if somebody cast animate dead on the body while the ID was in it?
Does the body now gain 3d6 snake attack? If so, and the body already has sneak attack, do you use the higher sneak attack or combine them?
Can the ID use Weapon Finesse or any other feat it knows with the stolen body?
Does it still gain +4 initiative from Improved Initiative while in a body?
Can it still use its skills inside the host? Can it choose to use the host skill check if better? I'm assuming no since it doesn't have specific memories, but what about physical memory like the hosts climb or acrobatics check?
I plan on using a cabal of ID's soon in my game. One of them as a 5th level wizard can keep itself and 4 friends swimming in gentle reposes. I just want to make sure I do the encounters correctly.
EDIT: If the host body can be maintained indefinitely could the ID "level" the body up, thus increasing the effectiveness of the host over time?
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EDIT: If the host body can be maintained indefinitely could the ID "level" the body up, thus increasing the effectiveness of the host over time?
The host body is dead. It will rot, in time, without application of gentle repose and the like. It certainly cannot level up, although the brain-lion can level up while driving the body.
Well... Intellect Devourers are not psionic creatures in the Pathifnder RPG, and having powers not represented more or less is a cheat; you can make any monster anything by calling upon its "powers not represented."
Anyway... multiple intellect devourers in a single body just doesn't do it for me.
True, but they weren't psionic in 3.5 either before the psionics supplement came out. Yes it is a bit of a cheat, but if it takes a cheat to make something 'cool', then I'm not adverse to bending the rules a little.
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Creative Director
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Again, the thing to remember is that the intellect devourer gets to use ALL of the host's powers but spellcasting and spell-like abilities, but the intellect devourer gets to use all of its spells and spell like abilities while in the host as normal. And although it's not totally spelled out, this also extends to mental actions and effects.
In regards to the ID, does it share powers with its stolen body?
Partially. All of the intellect devourer's spell-like abilities are usable by the host as long as it's got the intellect devourer inside it. None of the other abilities possessed by the intellect devourer are available for use at this time though.
Can an ID make its host invisible?
Yes.
Does the SR 23 apply to spells cast on the host? Obviously the host body would be immune to mind-affecting, since it's dead.
Only if those spells affect the intellect devourer directly. It would not get its SR against fireball or something that affects the body. It WOULD against spells that directly affect the intellect devourer (but remember that the intellect devourer is immune to mind-affecting effects, so I'm not sure there's any spells that would ever reach it in this case).
What if somebody cast animate dead on the body while the ID was in it?
Animate dead won't work on the body while the intellect devourer is in it, since the body is not technically an object while it's serving as a host.
Does the body now gain 3d6 snake attack? If so, and the body already has sneak attack, do you use the higher sneak attack or combine them?
SNAKE ATTACK! Cool typo! :-) The host does not gain the intellect devourer's sneak attack, but if the host already has sneak attack, it retains that ability.
Can the ID use Weapon Finesse or any other feat it knows with the stolen body?
The intellect devourer uses the host's feats, not its own feats.
Does it still gain +4 initiative from Improved Initiative while in a body?
Only if the host has the feat.
Can it still use its skills inside the host? Can it choose to use the host skill check if better? I'm assuming no since it doesn't have specific memories, but what about physical memory like the hosts climb or acrobatics check?
It uses the host's skill checks for Strength and Dexterity based skills, but its own skill checks for Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma based skills.
I plan on using a cabal of ID's soon in my game. One of them as a 5th level wizard can keep itself and 4 friends swimming in gentle reposes. I just want to make sure I do the encounters correctly.
A wand of gentle repose works wonders too. An elixir of gentle repose too. As long as they get gentle repose spells cast at least once every seven days between spell durations, they can wear their suits forever.
EDIT: If the host body can be maintained indefinitely could the ID "level" the body up, thus increasing the effectiveness of the host over time?
Nope. The intellect devourer could level itself up though, and when it gets powerful enough it can try to find a new, better body.
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Creative Director
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Again, the design goal of the intellect devourer is to allow an unusual combat in which you fight two foes back to back. When the intellect devourer is in the host's body, it's not just physically inside it. It's mentally and magically and even spiritually inside of it. For all intents and purposes, the intellect devourer IS the host body while it's inside the host body.
It doesn't retain the host's memories or knowledge, but it DOES get to use the vast majority of the host's skills, feats, and abilities. It can be a complex thing to run, and there's certainly not enough room in the monster stats to cover ALL possible permutations. Some day, I suspect that there'll be a bigger article or entry that talks about intellect devourers at which point we'll have the luxury of saying more about them. Until then, of course, these messageboards work great as a forum to clear things up!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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True, but they weren't psionic in 3.5 either before the psionics supplement came out. Yes it is a bit of a cheat, but if it takes a cheat to make something 'cool', then I'm not adverse to bending the rules a little.
They didn't have stats in 2nd edition or 3rd edition until the psionics books for those editions came out. Likewise, their 3.5E update was in 3.5E's Expanded Psionic Handbook. Since the 1st edition rules had psionics already in place, I don't think there was ever a non-psionic version of the intellect devourer until now.
James - thanks, your answers have been a big help. Wasn't sure how literally the "dominated" line should be taken, and now I know!
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Creative Director
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James can you give any specifics, or not specifics if you wish, about the ecology of the ID? I mean how do they breed? Do they leave little slime trails behind them ? Do they smell? ect.. Or has there already been an article I am as of yet unaware of?
That's far more than a mere messageboard post. We haven't done an intellect devourer ecology yet, but some day I would love to do one for a Pathfinder AP or book. We WILL have some intellect devourer elements in upcoming books, though. But I'm not really ready (nor do I have the time) to unleash the full force of the pent up words about them that are bubbling in my brain quite yet.
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James can you give any specifics, or not specifics if you wish, about the ecology of the ID? I mean how do they breed? Do they leave little slime trails behind them ? Do they smell? ect.. Or has there already been an article I am as of yet unaware of?That's far more than a mere messageboard post. We haven't done an intellect devourer ecology yet, but some day I would love to do one for a Pathfinder AP or book. We WILL have some intellect devourer elements in upcoming books, though. But I'm not really ready (nor do I have the time) to unleash the full force of the pent up words about them that are bubbling in my brain quite yet.
Yeah I thought that this would be a lot, I was hoping for maybe a suggestion for an old module or dragon magazine article. However since they are being re-imagined I guess that would not fit either.
Leaving a sad little jester.
~kicks can out of thread.
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Creative Director
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Intellect devourers kind of got ignored for much of 3rd edition, alas, due to the fact that they got updated in the "psioncis ghetto." I hope to be able to eventually bring them up to mind flayer status as popular scary underground brain-eating slaver race... but it's gonna take a few years.
That's far more than a mere messageboard post. We haven't done an intellect devourer ecology yet, but some day I would love to do one for a Pathfinder AP or book. We WILL have some intellect devourer elements in upcoming books, though. But I'm not really ready (nor do I have the time) to unleash the full force of the pent up words about them that are bubbling in my brain quite yet.
You know, that could be a really interesting 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' type AP, full of tasty paranoia and lots of dangerous, sneaky adversaries ...
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Intellect devourers kind of got ignored for much of 3rd edition, alas, due to the fact that they got updated in the "psioncis ghetto." I hope to be able to eventually bring them up to mind flayer status as popular scary underground brain-eating slaver race... but it's gonna take a few years.
They have already hit my "must use soon" group. Just need a couple of more to start a new campaign.
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Maybe we should resurrect THIS THREAD! :D
It has been blocked from my thread necromancy. Dratted anti-magic technology!!!!