Vancian magic is often thought of as "gamist." For a very long time, I really hated it, because I had come to like the skill-driven magic of Shadowrun and Mage: the Ascension. But in my dotage I have come to realize that there is only one fantasy magic system that truly requires you to pore over heavy tomes and memorize obscure formulas... and that is the Vancian system which has been preserved in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder is now the steward of the Vancian magic tradition in fantasy games. It is often maligned, but I think that animosity stems mainly from how ambiguous the rulebooks have been with respect to how magic works, how it looks, feels and relates to the world.
Once I made the conceptual leap away from magic-is-skill to magic-is-power, I grew to love Vancian magic intensely. A Vancian wizard performs rituals at the outset of the day, patterning his own soul with auras that he carries around like loaded weapons. It is not his skill that he wields, but the very fabric of the world that he has stolen and re-purposed for his own whims.
Recent discussion about the finer points of magic, such as interactions between detection spells and illusions, have left me with a rekindled desire to see a robust treatment of Pathfinder's metaphysics. I want to see a 328+ page unapologetic romp through inner planes, conjurations, spell preparation, verbal, somatic, and material components. I think a book on Magic — not segregated by arcane and divine, but magic in general — would be an excellent read. Of course, you could put some great new spells in there.
Paizo has wonderfully reclaimed the word "Bestiary" for their "Monster Manual". This could not make me happier, linguaphile that I am, because if there is a word in the English language for "monster book" I think it ought to be used. Likewise, a word exists for a treatise on things magical, and it is "Grimoire".
I originally proposed this during the Beta Playtest, but these are calmer times. I should like to hear whether the players and the Paizo staff share my enthusiasm for this idea. Glancing now at my bookshelf, it would look so natural; a sleek blue-black volume adjacent to my Bestiary and Core Rules, in Paizo's elegantly selected spinal font...
What say you Paizo fans, yea or nay?
A collection of magic spells into a Grimoire would definitely be a plus. In another suggestion, one for Arcane and one for Divine would be simpler for Players' and GM's. Could it include 3pp spells also such as happened in Green Ronin's Pocket Grimoire's? If I am wrong about the publisher please correct me.
Just my 2 cp.
Addendum: I would like Jeff Grub to write it. Ideally.
I have to admit, the Complete Mage was one of my favorite splat books. Not that is was a *good* book- I mean, hell, it nearly broke the game with the unbalanced crap it threw out (ultimate magus, anyone?) but it was one of the first wotc books to really discuss how magic worked on a roleplaying level. Sure, the book made tons of unoptimized suggestions, yet it really explored magic as a roleplaying concept and I dug the crap out of that.
So yeah, count me in for a grimoire. Anything to discuss magic as a concept would be welcome!
Sure, a grimoire for arcane spell casters would be awesome.
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Yea, yes, absolutely. The revamped classes and extra options added by Pathfinder offer the perfect opportunity to really flesh out the flavor of magic and support it with interesting new rules systems.
Currently, I am borrowing some of the magic rules from Imperial Age Magick for d20 Modern to add some more flavor to my Council of Thieves campaign. I'd love to see Paizo come up with something in a similar vein.
I am also a reformed Vancian-Hater. I like how the system actually encourages you, as a player, to think like a wizard. A highly intelligent scholar of the arcane arts should be able to anticipate what spells they will need on any given day and come up with a reasonable arsenal. Vancian magic requires forethought, cunning, and ingenuity--all traits every wizard should have.
Also, I completely agree, one thing I've noticed lacking from the Golarion source books is a thorough discussion of magic as an independent subject.
Sure, a grimoire for arcane spell casters would be awesome.
Respectfully, Mai, I must reinforce that I think it should be about magic in general, not just arcane casters. Divine magic has the same trappings — spell prep, components, tapping into other planes etc — that could benefit from a robust exploration of the metaphysics of magic.
What I want is a large sourcebook useful to the understanding of all players... even the fighter who must know the limitations of his arms and armor. I like to think the era of the "splatbook" is at an end, and that the kind of hardcovers Paizo will periodically release will be well-conceived and useful to all players.
Heh, have we had this discussion before, Evil Lincoln? Don't mean to beat a dead horse, just can't always remember who I've had this discussion with. If yes, probably you and I would just have to vote our own way and then be happy with however it came out. :D
Treating divine magic under the heading "grimoire" gives me the hebbie-jebbies.
If it was Golarion specific, it'd be easier for me to agree with you (because of my looking for ways to push divine and arcane apart in my own setting).
Treating divine magic under the heading "grimoire" gives me the hebbie-jebbies.
If using the term Grimoire for Divine magic creeps you out, how about calling the book a "Prayer" book or something to that effect. They would basically be the same just under different names. In my games, I try to supply new Divine spells by having the Divine casters find Prayer books with different spells in them.
Just my 2 cp.
I think we have, Mai, you're not imagining it. I see your point and respectfully differ on the matter. Glad you feel similarly reasonable about it!
But the exact form of such a book is for Paizo to determine. This thread is for voicing your support of a general "Magic book" idea, regardless of what they call it!
EDIT: Yes, most historical Grimoires deal extensively with the invocation of angels and demons, or so I have read.
Yeah, Kyrt-ryder, I think I see why you're reading the entry that way, but I think that's a stretch, based on the Church's historical attitude towards magic, the changing meaning of the word over time, etc.
Yep, Silverhair, we've generally referred to books with divine spells as being Prayer books.
Geez...we're disagreeing and being reasonable? Wait a minute, are we still on the internet? Something's not right!
EDIT: And either way, I'd want it to be a big fat hardback, as you say!
Just to nudge it back on topic — I don't think it matters what it is called. I suggested what I thought was a cool title. Does the concept sit well with players, is what I want to know!
There were certainly Christian magicians, but they were always viewed as heterodox by the clergy, even when tolerated for various reasons (usually because they were a part of court).
Concept: Good.
Title: Great, with my caveat. (I actually love the word itself.)
Okay, don't hate me, but I have a weird opinion on this one. I actually don't want a highly detailed tome explaining magic in Pathfinder. Why not? Because you run the risk of creating absolutes when you start to detail things in this manner.
I've actually got two examples from D&D over the years that make me a bit leery of this idea. In the Forgotten Realms, we got details on the Weave and the fact that magic, as it is known in D&D, isn't possible without the Weave. It took a while, but eventually some of this started to clash with the core D&D concepts. The Shadow Weave and how it related to the Weave became a nightmare, with different designers not even being able to agree on it (one designer would say the Shadow Weave is separate from the Weave and would still exist if the Weave were destroyed, another would say that the Weave would be fine without the Shadow Weave, but the Shadow Weave would fall apart without the Weave, another source treated the Weave and the Shadow Weave like the Light and Dark Side of the Force, and another source implied that all Shadow magic of any kind drew power from the Shadow Weave).
Dragonlance also became a bit of a mess, as reading the original novels and Raistlin's descriptions of magic, it sounded like the standard Arcane/Divine set up of D&D. However, over time, apparently prepared Arcane magic also came from the gods and wouldn't work without them, but spontaneous arcane magic would . . .
I'm really starting to think that magic is best left ambiguously define. Arcane magic is what someone can learn to do themselves, without belief or outside power source, to alter reality, whereas Divine magic is powered by belief or higher powers, not by power collected from the "ambient" universe, to create specific effects that are pretty much like miracles.
I could be wrong. The Paizo guys are great, and this product might be awesome. It probably would be. But I do worry that you could create a lot of "absolute" land mines hiding in the backstory ready to get tripped over.
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Paizo has wonderfully reclaimed the word "Bestiary" for their "Monster Manual". This could not make me happier, linguaphile that I am, because if there is a word in the English language for "monster book" I think it ought to be used. Likewise, a word exists for a treatise on things magical, and it is "Grimoire".
The Grimoire portion of the Player's Handbook (or Core Rules for Pathfinder RPG) always stands out as something I thought would be nice to have seperate from the core rules. I think D&D 3.5 did publish a spellbook which contained the spells from the PH and other sources. A Grimoire and another book dedicated to items (is there a word for this besides Sears Catalog?) would be handy.
@KnightErrantJR
I actually share your concern. That's one of the reasons I would have Jeff Grub or a similar cosmology vet write it. The planar/Planescape crowd were really good at compiling information on mysterious things while preserving their basic mystery.
I can think of a number of game writers who I would not let near this book, but I shan't name names (never seen the write for Paizo though).
Thank you for raising a valid concern, but I still want the book!
I'd like it to be a book bounded in tortured stitched flesh like the Necronomicon released by the Evil Dead special DVD. The pages on the inside would have that weathered look and the paper crisp to the touch. Have the text in sort of a psuedo-scribed font that looks as if it were copied by hand.
But that's what I want my Psalter ... er Grimoire to look like. :P
See? Mix grimoires and prayer-books and you bring the Urizens out!
Guys, I've just got to say, go over to the Folio Society and take a look at the prices on some of those reproduction psalters over there. Woo-wee!
This could be a very interesting book. I'd be even more sold on the idea if it included a section on the "physics of magic items". Given how the detection spells work, I've often wondered about making short-lived magic items - it should be possible, right? - like an extended/expanded version of Greater Magic Weapon.
To clarify, I'm not interested in rules for this, I want to see a much more setting-based book.
Peace,
tfad
See? Mix grimoires and prayer-books and you bring the Urizens out!
** spoiler omitted **
Am I getting that predictable?
Dude, you named yourself after a Blake figure.
Oh yeah, I did.
That reminds me, I happened to snag a small illustrated version of the Book of Urizen @ HPB back on Monday. But the guy that checked out my purchase told me I was a day late on a large illustrated coffee book size of his more famous prints. I was bummed.
If I were brave enough to do such stuff, I would love to have that Dragon tattoo that Ralph Fiennes (sic) had in Red Dragon. But alas, I can't imagine having body art and being 85 years old and trying to wonder to myself what the hell I was thinking.
I love it if cool names like Bestiary and Grimoire became a trend.
I'd love a book actually explaining the metaphyscis of magic! that would be AWESOME!
Really don't see it happening though, and definately not as a hardback from Paizo.
You might be able to get a 64 page Chronicles style book out about, or a find a very good third party publisher who's interested in it.
I'd love the book, but it would have to be very, very carefully and exactingly put together, or it would be terrible, or have bits that are easy to manipulate and complain about by over-obsessive fans, i.e. nerds.
So it's maybe a long-term project, and most likely to be a third-party one.
Then again, SKR Games is third party, and I'd say he'd actually do a damn good job, and/or get someone very capable to do a damned good job.
But why? would it sell well enough to justify the heart ache? Sadly, probably not. :'(
In summary, love the idea, it just not going to be hardback, and we'd be insanely lucky to get from paizo, or even at all.
I very much like the idea of this book, as it's something I always end up thinking about when making a campaign setting.
A side benefit for Paizo in developing the ideas of how magic works, is that it might give them an idea on how to approach Psionics.
I know for myself, nothing helps me come up with the details of making a new "unique" *thing* better than to detail the specifics of what that thing will be compared to.
So if they can come up with all the flavour reasons of why Vancian magic works the way it does, and why Arcane and Divine (and other) magic exist the way they do... it might be easier to come up with a way to fit Psionics in the whole mess.
In order to properly get where you are going, you need to really understand where you are now.
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Also, I agree with EvilLincoln's sentiments of Vancian magic. For the longest time I felt like spell slots were an inhibiting mechanic. However, after coming up with (or trying out) various skill or point based systems, I found that the strategy and tactics involved with the resource management of spell slots really adds to how you play the game.
Plus, I was given an explanation on how Vancian magic could be explained that helped me picture it in character. Basically, treat spell slots and levels like electron valences. As you add more power to the nucleus (character), it fills up a valence until you jump to the next valence; like how the electron shell needs to add more electrons to previous valences before adding a new "level".
"Memorized" spells would be spell energy floating around the caster, in defined paths that, with more layers outward the higher level you get.
It explains why Arcane Sight tells you the strength of the highest level spell/ability, as it's the outermost "shell". Stuff like that.
In the explanation, epic level spells were called "trans-valence" magic. Heh.
This is the kind of stuff I feel could make Vancian magic flavour more acceptable, and give DMs a way to add flavour (imagine spells that could allow seeing the magic working this way, with colors indicating the auras of the spells prepared, etc).
I know how magic works = Just ask your DM. :) becuase they will always, ALWAYS have house rules about something.
I do NOT want to know how magic works. (Meta Phystical).
I do WANT a book with Magic spells for: Bards,Clerics,Druids,Rangers & Wizards/Sor.
I would like for it to have a Chapter in the back of the book better explaining how to make Magic items with examples of how to put the stuff & Spells Together for a more legal way of making magic items.
((ps i already have Psionics = It usally called Divine magic in most Medivel Fantasy Worlds tho......On some backwood worlds they still think it comes from Gods instead of thier own minds)).
I'd love a book actually explaining the metaphyscis of magic! that would be AWESOME!
But why? would it sell well enough to justify the heart ache? Sadly, probably not. :'(
I could see it working if they included rules for expanding on the spell system.
It could be combined with cosmology expansion, as the two go hand in hand most of the time.
It could even act as a grimoire itself. A book just filled with spells tends to be a dry read (my eyes glaze over the spell compendium), so making this a book "all about magic", with the first part of the book all about the metaphysics and campaign ideas for DMs, and the last 2 thirds being new spells for the casters out there, would be a much better read overall.
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I'd be up for something along this line, but think it would be best to present multiple reasons so that it's left to the DM to decide which is actually correct. As mentioned the Planescape boks were good at leading you to believe something worked one way only to end with you doubting what you'd just read. That's how it should be presented.
I'd be willing to drop 40 bucks for an in depth "scientific" analysis of magic in Pathfinder. While they probably couldn't get away with an unabashed technical manual, it would certainly be a very interesting expansion and I'd love to read it.
I definitely want to see something like this for certain!
A Grimoire and another book dedicated to items (is there a word for this besides Sears Catalog?) would be handy.Welcome to Wacko's Wonders Emporium, where you can find any magic item under the sun, or in it!
The Book of Artifice?
I would like to +1 this thread. A Grimoire filled with suggestions on how magic works, why a Wizard isn't just a different type of math geek, what's the visual difference between a healing spell from a god of war as opposed to a god of healing? Ideas, ideas, ideas! Even if I don't use 90% of the book, I'd still buy it.
*Looks up at his book shelf o' gamery and notes how many books he has with "grimoire" in the title. Not enough, I need at least 1 more*
I'd love a book actually explaining the metaphyscis of magic! that would be AWESOME!
I've found this one to be fantastic. But I need more.
*casts raise thread*
Should a Grimoire (or your magic book name of choice) be a Rulebook or Pathfinder Chronicles book? I can think of pros and cons for each.
Rulebook: Well, the spells are there, and what I want is an extrapolation of the function of spells in the Core Rule Book. A lot of these spells are based on older gaming traditions, like "Elemental Planes" which could be explained in a setting-independent way that was useful to all the settings that make use of the CRB. On the other hand, it is hard to dance around which cosmology might be employed in a setting — summoning in the Great Wheel vs. the Great Beyond is apt to be different on a nuts-and-bolts level.
Chronicles: This is probably the better choice. As a Pathfinder Chronicles GM, I really want to know the details about my world — how spells interact with the inner planes and the great beyond.
What do you all think?
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*casts raise thread*
Should a Grimoire (or your magic book name of choice) be a Rulebook or Pathfinder Chronicles book? I can think of pros and cons for each.
Rulebook: Well, the spells are there, and what I want is an extrapolation of the function of spells in the Core Rule Book. A lot of these spells are based on older gaming traditions, like "Elemental Planes" which could be explained in a setting-independent way that was useful to all the settings that make use of the CRB. On the other hand, it is hard to dance around which cosmology might be employed in a setting — summoning in the Great Wheel vs. the Great Beyond is apt to be different on a nuts-and-bolts level.
Chronicles: This is probably the better choice. As a Pathfinder Chronicles GM, I really want to know the details about my world — how spells interact with the inner planes and the great beyond.
What do you all think?
Chronicles +1
I think it is a great idea, but I'd like it to be Glorion specific. Perhaps touching on how magic works from planet to planet in the solar system. (sidebars would do for me.)
I don't really need any Paizo works that are not setting specific at the moment. But that's just me.