I'm a player in a Council of Thieves game, so please avoid spoilers except in blocks. Our group enjoys roleplay more than dungeon crawls, and I'm always usually the GM. I heard great things about Council of Thieves, so I bought it for one of the others in our group to run it. I had heard that PCs that are too mercenary can mess with the intro hook to the adventure, so every player carefully read the Player's Guide and we started with three good-aligned PCs (ironically, the more mercenary guy was the only one who DIDN'T have a problem). Those three were all Neutral or Lawful Good (no one in the party was Chaotic--a huge problem later on). A Paladin and Cleric of Shelyn and a shy but kind Summoner. We had read all of the Player's Guide and Cheliax book and were really into the 1984-like Cheliax mindset.
We made it just past the sewers now, and I don't know how to spell her name, but Jenoven is insane and has turned off everyone in the party except for the more-opportunistic gnome. The GM specifically toned her down from the module, so how is everyone getting their groups to side with her without taking the Westcrown Firebrand trait?
Let me try to explain in detail:
Considering that Jen would be executed instantaneously for her beliefs, it makes sense that she has to be extremely careful, but apparently the module takes her vagueness to incredible extremes. The GM modified her to give more information than she was supposed to give, and she still wound up sketching out pretty much everyone in the group due to her incredible vagueness. The Summoner (me) made a Knowledge[Local] check to know that the bar had been purchased but sketchily not actually put into use, and flat-out stated to 'Jen' that this implies that the bar was a front for a thieves' guild or shadowy organisation. The Shelyn duo wanted to hold the meeting in their own temple and didn't seem convinced because Jen was still avoiding specifics (they thought that helping Westcrown could be best done under the perview of the church of Shelyn rather than some vague sketchy statements by Jen). Because of this, they were extremely hesistant to come along, and did so with some reluctance only because an NPC Paladin acquaintance of all non-Gnome characters (an idea I had to help the GM tie us all in) recommended that it was a good idea to listen to what Jen had to say. Same with the Summoner, who was an abused Tiefling and trusted the NPC Paladin more than anyone else.
The Gnome was offered 3 GP and dinner to hear her out and gladly accepted, since he lives in the slums and that can feed him for at least a week. So the more mercenary character had the least issue so far.
After arriving at the bar, there was some great roleplaying (I do think the content of the adventure is top-notch, and the Shelyn Cleric player said at the end 'at the very least it will be an awesome one-shot'), but then the NPC Paladin left (the GM didn't want us to have too much help in the sewers) and Jen gave her speech.
The beginning of the speech was pretty reasonable, though still very vague, and a few uncomfortably seditious implications were spread throughout, but the end of the speech brought a collective gasp to all of the PCs. "Bring down the Thrice-Damned House of Thrune!" (or something very similar) Jen shouted with great gusto.
Immediately, no one in the party wanted to be there. The Summoner started shaking and eyed the door (which she had requested be kept unlocked). She nearly bolted right then. Pretty much every PC pointed out that noe the moment one of her friends was captured (a moment that we hadn't realised yet had already occurred), the trail of people who heard of these statements would lead to the PCs, and they could either turn her in now or be killed for withholding that information when they were caught (to be fair, we expected to be caught, in a 1984 way, as we had a respect and fear for the Hellknights commensurate with the description in the two books we'd read; we had no idea how incompetent they would turn out to be when we actually fought them). The Paladin pointed out that while the Hellknights were not a legitimate authority, House Thrune is, and they hold the country together no matter what other ills they perform, and her Code of Conduct explicitly states that she shouldn't be working with someone who wants to overthrow the government. It's funny--I've heard about groups who wanted to overthrow Thrune after starting this AP and I assumed it was just overzealous players, but the text does sort of throw that at you, eh? If we had very Chaotic characters, it might have caught on, but...
Anyway, then the boy came with news that the half-elf guy had been captured. Again, everyone in the party was into the Cheliaxian mindset and were afraid of the Hellknights. The Summoner started crying and said they were all going to be caught and tortured unless they turned themselves in--when they questioned the half-elf, he'd lead the Hellknights to Jen, and she would lead the Hellknights to the PCs, through torture, truth-telling magic, or whatever it took, it would happen.
Jen managed to convince the party to get into the sewers, but the Eidolon wound up trapped in the bar's back room above because no one knew about him but the Summoner (she thought he was an imaginary friend). At this point, Jen tried to show us the sign, but we all rolled 9 or less on Perception and didn't see it. The module apparently wanted Jen to run away and leave the party to find their way through alone (or in our case, get lost), never mind the young lad she had with her which would stop her from using her feat to outrun all the encounters. The GM, who had been trying to make Jen less of a loony than written to get us more likely to take to her, had her stick along.
The Summoner didn't like the creepy atmosphere of the sewers--and as an aside, this sewer thing, as it turned out was probably the most successful creepy sequence our group has seen in a long time, though I don't know if that's as intended--the player of the Gnome said that the whole thing could have been an hour long sequence in a horror movie.
When the Hellknights split into groups of three, the Eidolon killed them off except three, and the Summoner announced that the Hellknights were gone and the group could just go back to the bar. Jen insisted that we go forward and after running back slightly and finding the Hellknights' unconscious bodies, the group acquiesced. Meanwhile, the Summoner was taking some of the Eidolon's wounds, causing her to cry out in pain as slashes appeared over her body seemingly without cause.
The Eidolon continued ahead of the group and killed the encounters. When the last three Hellknights caught up with the party, the Gnome freaked when he realised they knew his face now, and he Colour Sprayed them all and starting hacking them to bits with his Waraxe. The Paladin tried to stop him and was horrified at his failure, causing him to go into an OCD fit that later led to cleaning his room five times.
When we left the sewers, everyone except the Gnome (who was fine working on with Jen) insisted that they leave immediately and take the poor Summoner to the temple of Shelyn. The Cleric went to the high priest to say that she thinks Jen is dangerous and preys on those with troubled pasts to recruit them for her own anarchist agenda. The Paladin went for his OCD cleaning spree.
Meanwhile, especially since we were quite enjoying all the RP and character interaction, this left the GM with the best option of just having us scrap our characters and make new ones who are already members of Jen's organisation.
I came up with an idea that we will probably use that maybe the NPC Paladin was captured too by the Hellknights when she left the bar (the timing was right). This gets us to work with them for at least the next mission, but the Cleric still pretty much hates Jen and the other Good characters think (because of her vagueness and the way she says crazy things) that she wants to cause anarchy more than she wants to help people. The Gnome is fine because the pay is good (a few gold is a lot to him). Obviously I suggested that the GM find another member of the organisation who can explain that Jen is not really representative of their actual goals, is a bit of a psycho, and is extra-tense right now because her lover is about to be tortured. I hope this is true. The party would be happy to help Westcrown, but Jen just doesn't genuinely seem like she wants to do that in a reasonable way for sane Cheliaxians who are okay with Thrune but just want to make a difference to help Westcrown to want to associate with her at all. I've heard people say that the authors of the path looking back think they might have overused the Hellknights as early antagonists. This report of what happened to us confirms this, at least for our groups.
Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas? I think the NPC Paladin being captured will keep us at least for a while (or should we all just make new really Chaotic PCs?) If your ideas have spoilers for anything past where we are (just left the sewers, refused to talk to anyone in the secret base until we regrouped with just the four PCs and worked things out) please hide them in a spoiler block (and I'll have the GM read them, but I don't want to be spoiled about the rest of the AP). We can't be the only group this sort of thing happened to, can we?
I just want to point out again that aside from the issues with the hook, we've all been extremely pleased with CoT and I am very much looking forward to our next session. It's an extremely flavourful and evocative adventure (as evidenced by how it evoked fear, helplessness, and horror for us so much in the sewers), and this hook seems to be the one big problem that could potentially force us to abandon our PCs after having so much fun with them so far.
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To tell you more than the following would be to spoil the game for you:
1) Janiven is not the leader of the resistance; the half-elf guy is. Janiven is a ranger specialized in urban warfare, but not a leader... so you'll have to excuse her for not being the charismatic leader you would hope her to be... she's an athletic, deadly chick that's full of passion and has had enough of the current devil-worshipping regime.
2) You guys are overthinking the whole thing.
3) The CoT player's guide is clear that some of the responsibility to buy into this campaign must come from the player, in that you must create a character with similar goals (i.e. one that has had enough of the current situation in Westcrown). Heroes are men and women of action. If your PCs cannot be driven into action by a rebellious, "for la RESISTANCE!", impassionate speech by Janiven, they are probably not the heroes Westcrown needs at this point. The way you describe the reaction of your PCs is reminiscent of scared, cowed commoners who should not, will not risk their own life for a cause. PCs are heroic figures driven to action. They have PC levels, not NPC levels...
4) The CoT player's guide also has guidelines on how to handle paladin and other LG characters in this campaign: Aroden died 70 years ago... that's just two generations. The old ways, laws and traditions are not being respected by the new leaders. Not only do the new leaders don't care about the old ways and customs, but they also woship DEVILS and constantly try to ingrain the teachings of HELL into this new order they are creating. That would be cause for all self-respecting LGs in town to say "HELL NO!"
To tell you more than the following would be to spoil the game for you:
1) Janiven is not the leader of the resistance; the half-elf guy is. Janiven is a ranger specialized in urban warfare, but not a leader... so you'll have to excuse her for not being the charismatic leader you would hope her to be... she's an athletic, deadly chick that's full of passion and has had enough of the current devil-worshipping regime.
2) You guys are overthinking the whole thing.
3) The CoT player's guide is clear that some of the responsibility to buy into this campaign must come from the player, in that you must create a character with similar goals (i.e. one that has had enough of the current situation in Westcrown). Heroes are men and women of action. If your PCs cannot be driven into action by a rebellious, "for la RESISTANCE!", impassionate speech by Janiven, they are probably not the heroes Westcrown needs at this point. The way you describe the reaction of your PCs is reminiscent of scared, cowed commoners who should not, will not risk their own life for a cause. PCs are heroic figures driven to action. They have PC levels, not NPC levels...
4) The CoT player's guide also has guidelines on how to handle paladin and other LG characters in this campaign: Aroden died 70 years ago... that's just two generations. The old ways, laws and traditions are not being respected by the new leaders. Not only do the new leaders don't care about the old ways and customs, but they also woship DEVILS and constantly try to ingrain the teachings of HELL into this new order they are creating. That would be cause for all self-respecting LGs in town to say "HELL NO!"
First of all, thanks for reading and giving suggestions--I know it was a long post to read through, and hearing thoughts like yours can help us decide whether we need to make new PCs. I'm not sure I got the same idea out of the Player's Guide as you did, though (and hey, I love me my CG freedom fighters--if the Player's Guide suggested to make an Andoren spy to rouse rabble for this AP or something like that, that would have been an awesome character to try out).
According to the Player's Guide: "In this Adventure Path, you and your fellow adventurers help restore the crumbling honor of Westcrown, fight against a decades-old curse, and do battle with an enemy far more deadly than any simple fiend, all in the hopes of returning a measure of splendor to this long-beset metropolis."
I think all of the characters are very much for this. This isn't what Janiven was actually advertising, though. I've also heard that the adventure path is *not* actually about trying to overthrow Thrune or anything like that--if a non-sketchy NPC came up and said something like that snippet from the Player's Guide, they'd have hooked in all the PCs easily. The characters are interested in doing something, not just hiding. They just are very very leery of Janiven.
3) The CoT player's guide is clear that some of the responsibility to buy into this campaign must come from the player, in that you must create a character with similar goals (i.e. one that has had enough of the current situation in Westcrown). Heroes are men and women of action. If your PCs cannot be driven into action by a rebellious, "for la RESISTANCE!", impassionate speech by Janiven, they are probably not the heroes Westcrown needs at this point. The way you describe the reaction of your PCs is reminiscent of scared, cowed commoners who should not, will not risk their own life for a cause. PCs are heroic figures driven to action. They have PC levels, not NPC levels...
Any character with the Westcrown Firebrand trait would obviously be just like this. I almost made a more Chaotic character who would have had that trait or the Conspiracy Theorist trait that would have fit right in with Janiven. Our PCs are men and women of action. But action doesn't have to mean rebellion. I don't think the Player's Guide made it clear that you are doing 'la resistance' in this AP, and I have heard that the AP actually is not about that and that other GMs have had players get carried away wanting to overthrow Thrune. If it's more about (and this is a guess) fighting the Shadow Beasts, dealing with the influence of the Council of Thieves (whatever that is), getting thugs off the streets, you could get our PCs to do that for free just by mentioning where we could go about doing these things.
4) The CoT player's guide also has guidelines on how to handle paladin and other LG characters in this campaign: Aroden died 70 years ago... that's just two generations. The old ways, laws and traditions are not being respected by the new leaders. Not only do the new leaders don't care about the old ways and customs, but they also woship DEVILS and constantly try to ingrain the teachings of HELL into this new order they are creating. That would be cause for all self-respecting LGs in town to say "HELL NO!"
The material suggests that anyone like that would not be alive in Cheliax for long. The nation's tolerance of Paladins and those sorts despite their enforced state worshup of Asmodeus exists (according to the PG and the Cheliax book) in main part because Paladins respect the order that the current regime holds, and they work tirelessly to help as many as possible within the system, and perhaps reform the system if they can, but never tear it down.
From the Player's Guide "Paladins face many of the same challenges clerics do in Cheliax. Worshipers of Asmodeus openly walk the streets, protected by the sadistic but nonetheless legitimate House of Thrune. A paladin in Cheliax, particularly a major city such as Westcrown or Egorian, must take care to rein in her righteous impulses and work with the existing law rather than attempting to barge through it. A wellintentioned strike against evil could result in brutal government-sanctioned retaliation, and an imprisoned paladin combats evil far less effectively than a free one.
Yet for all the corruption of the country’s rulers, there are many more evils to face within the country, and a paladin might work great deeds in the eyes of Cheliax’s people by combating subtler and potentially even more destructive evils. Paladins of Abadar, Iomedae, and Shelyn most often find their way to Cheliax, their devotion to order typically being well satisfied within the rigid society even as they crusade to make the land a better place for its people."
The Paladin player followed that Roleplaying advice perfectly, as far as I could see.
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What can I say. I'm not getting the same vibe you are getting about this AP. I am DMing this to a group of four and they are loving it. I as a DM love it too. I don't find anything wrong with the way Janiven is portrayed throughout the APs. Advice: you'll have to get used to the fact that you guys are the heroes, the "stars" of the resistance, and these NPCs become more of a support / logistics / reconnaissance organization between the PCs' missions.
3) The CoT player's guide is clear that some of the responsibility to buy into this campaign must come from the player, in that you must create a character with similar goals (i.e. one that has had enough of the current situation in Westcrown). Heroes are men and women of action. If your PCs cannot be driven into action by a rebellious, "for la RESISTANCE!", impassionate speech by Janiven, they are probably not the heroes Westcrown needs at this point. The way you describe the reaction of your PCs is reminiscent of scared, cowed commoners who should not, will not risk their own life for a cause. PCs are heroic figures driven to action. They have PC levels, not NPC levels...
This is not actually true.
The Council of Thieves Player's Guide is an amazingly unhelpful document when it comes to creating characters that will be motivated to participate in this adventure path.
A no point does it actually say that the Player Characters should have specific grievances with the government of Westcrown. (That information is actually on page 10 of The Bastards of Erebus - which no player is likely to read.)
Some of the Campaign traits make this worse. "Child of Infamy" (page 8), and "Diabolist Raised" (page 9) are particularly bad in this respect.
Even the less extreme "The Pathfinder Exile" (page 9), "Conspiracy Hunter" (page 9) and "Shadow Child" (page 9) give only the vaguest reasons why the characters would be even the slightest bit interrested in joining a "rebel" faction.
So only "Infernal Bastard" (page 9) and "Westcrown Firebrand" (page 10) would be strongly motivated.
In another thread, someone asked if this AP's plot misstep has appeared. I think it started with one.
3) The CoT player's guide is clear that some of the responsibility to buy into this campaign must come from the player, in that you must create a character with similar goals (i.e. one that has had enough of the current situation in Westcrown). Heroes are men and women of action. If your PCs cannot be driven into action by a rebellious, "for la RESISTANCE!", impassionate speech by Janiven, they are probably not the heroes Westcrown needs at this point. The way you describe the reaction of your PCs is reminiscent of scared, cowed commoners who should not, will not risk their own life for a cause. PCs are heroic figures driven to action. They have PC levels, not NPC levels...This is not actually true.
The Council of Thieves Player's Guide is an amazingly unhelpful document when it comes to creating characters that will be motivated to participate in this adventure path.
A no point does it actually say that the Player Characters should have specific grievances with the government of Westcrown. (That information is actually on page 10 of The Bastards of Erebus - which no player is likely to read.)
Some of the Campaign traits make this worse. "Child of Infamy" (page 8), and "Diabolist Raised" (page 9) are particularly bad in this respect.
Even the less extreme "The Pathfinder Exile" (page 9), "Conspiracy Hunter" (page 9) and "Shadow Child" (page 9) give only the vaguest reasons why the characters would be even the slightest bit interrested in joining a "rebel" faction.
So only "Infernal Bastard" (page 9) and "Westcrown Firebrand" (page 10) would be strongly motivated.In another thread, someone...
Lord Fyre--Good, my fellow players and I are not crazy then. Your analysis is exactly what we got out of the document as well, and you can imagine how disappointed we were that our character concepts were all at odds with the AP when we spent hours of time specifically trying to be helpful to the GM by reading the PG and making characters appropriately.
I will say that the PG is great for making characters that scream Cheliax. The players other than myself were either inexperienced with or totally new to Golarion, and all the PCs made this way oozed Cheliax flavour (as well as NPCs and situations, but I knew it would be true for the AP stuff).
To add to your list of why it was unhelpful in determining that the PCs would join rebels, the Paladin entry almost tells you a Paladin wouldn't do so, and the fact that Westcrown Firebrand is listed as a trait sort of implies that if you don't take that trait, you probably aren't like the description there (in other words that the character described in that trait is relatively rare), whereas it seems like all the PCs should be Westcrown Firebrand types.
As I said above to PDK, I have nothing against La Resistance, and I suppose we could all just make characters who fit in with it, but since you got the same vibe as I did from the PG, do you have any suggestions for how to continue the AP with the same characters? What did you think of my ideas for the GM?
Thanks to everyone else who replied as well--each post and perspective is useful (though I'll admit to be relieved to see one that agrees with our group here). When I have time, I'll reply to every post.
To add to your list of why it was unhelpful in determining that the PCs would join rebels, the Paladin entry almost tells you a Paladin wouldn't do so, and the fact that Westcrown Firebrand is listed as a trait sort of implies that if you don't take that trait, you probably aren't like the description there (in other words that the character described in that trait is relatively rare), whereas it seems like all the PCs should be Westcrown Firebrand types.
Actually, the "Real" Hellknights would make sure that this character is not too common. :)
Other traits then the "Westcrown Firebrand" would work, such as the "Lost Nobility" from the Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax p. 19. (I feel that it would have made a better Campaign Trait then most of the ones offered.)
The real problem is that, while all of the traits provide useful bonuses for the Adventure Path, they fail in what is most needed. They do not give the characters a grievence with the government of Westcrown (or Cheliax) sufficiently serious that the players would not promply attack and capture Janiven and turn her over to the Hellknights.
(House Thrune reacts poorly to sedition. - Which Janiven commits on Page 13 of Bastards of Erebus.)
As I said above to PDK, I have nothing against La Resistance, and I suppose we could all just make characters who fit in with it, but since you got the same vibe as I did from the PG, do you have any suggestions for how to continue the AP with the same characters? What did you think of my ideas for the GM?
Well, your suggestions may well be the only way to proceed. Hopefully, by the end of this path, they will have made enough connections to want to continue.
All in all, I am not a Huge fan of this Adventure Path. :(
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A no point does it actually say that the Player Characters should have specific grievances with the government of Westcrown. (That information is actually on page 10 of The Bastards of Erebus - which no player is likely to read.)
You mean the bit that specificity states the Dm should explain all this before the game starts?
Actually, the "Real" Hellknights would make sure that this character is not too common. :)
I imagined this was the case--the characters didn't know the HKs in the module were such pushovers, and we treated them like the 1984 Thought Police.
Other traits then the "Westcrown Firebrand" would work, such as the "Lost Nobility" from the Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax p. 19. (I feel that it would have made a better Campaign Trait then most of the ones offered.)
I remember that one--Grr, I should have rejiggered my CN Sasserine noble character from an aborted Savage Tides game...I mainly didn't because he was 3.5 and no appropriate class for him exists in PF yet.
The real problem is that, while all of the traits provide useful bonuses for the Adventure Path, they fail in what is most needed. They do not give the characters a grievence with the government of Westcrown (or Cheliax) sufficiently serious that the players would not promply attack and capture Janiven and turn her over to the Hellknights.
(House Thrune reacts poorly to sedition. - Which Janiven commits on Page 13 of Bastards of Erebus.)
Oh, I know what you're talking about--it's in my big long post at the top. All the characters were shocked to hear that from her, and while we were all good-aligned and thus found the idea of turning her in to be morally distasteful, we bandied it about due to the fact that we were now all accessories to her sedition if we didn't (and the characters wanted to be heroes and help Westcrown from the 'other troubles' mentioned in the PG, not arrested and tortured to death). We weren't rich enough to afford the appropriate bribe to get out of 'blasphemy' or its equivalent (1000-10000 gp according to the Cheliax book).
What can I say. I'm not getting the same vibe you are getting about this AP. I am DMing this to a group of four and they are loving it. I as a DM love it too. I don't find anything wrong with the way Janiven is portrayed throughout the APs. Advice: you'll have to get used to the fact that you guys are the heroes, the "stars" of the resistance, and these NPCs become more of a support / logistics / reconnaissance organization between the PCs' missions.
It seems a very fun path, I just wish the PG had told us to make these types of characters, if it is necessary. Our GM has told me that the stuff you wind up doing in the path is like what the PG says (hero things, not revolutionary things), so I think maybe just the problem for some groups (mine and Lord Fyre's at least) is just that this organisation of Janiven's is too extreme for them; it seems like they could have presented an organisation that is more moderate in the path and still had it cohere (with an optional sidebar for a more revolutionary group if your players preferred). The Player's Guide even suggests that the players might want to think about becoming a Hellknight(!), which really really seemed to imply a different direction.
Granted, as you mentioned in your first post, Janiven is a fiery and interesting character, and I think that's a good thing. She's thus a far cry from Jenya in Shackled City, the world's most boring NPC patroness (though I still quite like playing in SCAP, one of my favourite campaigns so far, Jenya was so boring that we pretty much ignored her except when she was telling us things).
One of the things that all my players did, whether by accident or on purpose, was they all created non-human characters. They all hated the idea of the Humans being the ones that did all of the ruling in Westcrown and they wanted that to change. There were a few other things but a few of their backgrounds involved bad history with human nobles of Westcrown.
Interesting--our characters except the priestess are non-human, and my Summoner is a Tiefling. However, she believes that improving the lot for Tieflings in Westcrown is more likely through acts of kindness, compassion, and courage against thugs and shadow beasts than it is from sowing revolution--after all, if House Thrune hears about a Tiefling insurrection in Westcrown that actually was major enough to concern them, I wouldn't put it past them to order a retributive Tiefling genocide or otherwise make matters worse for Tieflings.
Is your GM on these boards? Maybe we can help him directly.
So at this point what is it that your characters want to do? They're involved, and you've said that they don't want to turn anyone in, so what's their current motivation?
I imagined this was the case--the characters didn't know the HKs in the module were such pushovers, and we treated them like the 1984 Thought Police.
Well, those Hellknights, admittedly, are raw recruits. So, not the cream of the crop. Nevertheless, the rep of the Hellknights should pretty well have served to get you running if you were thinking of them as 1984's Thought Police. Tortured if you get caught? Yep. Tortured if you turn yourself in? Yep. Better not be caught.
That said, remember that the Hellknights don't run Westcrown. It's far to big for them to routinely police effectively and the local dottari are a lot less dangerous. The size of the city at over 100,000 residents works in your favor.
I'll be starting running the campaign as soon as we finish wrapping up Shackled City. It's not grabbing me quite as much as Crimson Throne is, but it's got some good ideas in it. I don't really think, based on my reading of the first 4 segments, that the Hellknights have been overused so far.
My suggestion is to ride it out a bit more and keep an open mind. It may be that your DM hasn't really portrayed Janiven as deftly as he might have. She's a good egg. Just a bit excitable. And while she was the one who made the contacts, she was not the one who was meant to make the pitch to recruit you. That was her half-elf friend had he not been captured. So, she's not really at her best. Try to forgive her.
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I am running this campaign, and two of the four original characters were skeptical at Janiven's speech. One of the others had the firebrand trait and the fourth was a fairly passive player. One character was upset with the lax security, so I had Arael make some new rules the player would be more comfortable with.
I had and can see the most problems with hooks during the first one-and-a-half modules only.
The most skeptical person LOVED Cheliax the way it was and was disappointed with the campaign. His character had problems the entire time with why he would continue to adventure with them. It eventually turned out he left the gaming group due to outside reasons.
Janiven is sketchy BECAUSE the Hellknights are to be feared and she doesn't fully trust you PCs yet because you may turn her in. You'll learn more soon enough.
I will tell you that the Hellknights you fought weren't full-fledged Hellknights. You can tell because they aren't even wearing full-plate, they are wearing splint mail. (still heavy armor)
You mean the bit that specificity states the Dm should explain all this before the game starts?
A no point does it actually say that the Player Characters should have specific grievances with the government of Westcrown. (That information is actually on page 10 of The Bastards of Erebus - which no player is likely to read.)
While this is true, is still feel that this information should have been put into both the Player's Guide and the Campaign Traits.
Thus it would be more "organic" to the design of the Player Heroes, rather then a "tack on" at the last minute.
Interesting--our characters except the priestess are non-human, and my Summoner is a Tiefling. However, she believes that improving the lot for Tieflings in Westcrown is more likely through acts of kindness, compassion, and courage against thugs and shadow beasts than it is from sowing revolution--after all, if House Thrune hears about a Tiefling insurrection in Westcrown that actually was major enough to concern them, I wouldn't put it past them to order a retributive Tiefling genocide or otherwise make matters worse for Tieflings.
Give it enough time to work past your first impression and I think you'll get along with the gist of the adventure path just fine. But keep in mind that not all tieflings have a very positive attitude in Westcrown and may serve as some of those very thugs you'd be interested in knocking down.
Oh, I know what you're talking about--it's in my big long post at the top. All the characters were shocked to hear that from her, and while we were all good-aligned and thus found the idea of turning her in to be morally distasteful, we bandied it about due to the fact that we were now all accessories to her sedition if we didn't (and the characters wanted to be heroes and help Westcrown from the 'other troubles' mentioned in the PG, not arrested and tortured to death). We weren't rich enough to afford the appropriate bribe to get out of 'blasphemy' or its or its equivalent (1000-10000 gp according to the Cheliax book).
Janiven is very fortunate that your heroes did not want ther to be tortured.
Darker (or even more neutral) heroes would likely have given her to the Hellknights that show up presently.
The immediate "Citizen's Arrest" would likely have gotten your heroes off without having to actually endure torture yourselves.
Janiven is sketchy BECAUSE the Hellknights are to be feared and she doesn't fully trust you PCs yet because you may turn her in. You'll learn more soon enough.
She is not "sketcy" enough. What she says to the player characters is still more then enough to get her exicuted by the authorities.
Is your GM on these boards? Maybe we can help him directly.
So at this point what is it that your characters want to do? They're involved, and you've said that they don't want to turn anyone in, so what's their current motivation?
She reads them occasionally but isn't a forum poster.
For now, our GM is probably taking our advice and having the NPC Paladin friend captured, so given that, character motivations are roughly as follows (in order of importance and immediacy):
Summoner(Me)--Save Laeniaxis (the NPC Paladin), remove her Tiefling curse / find a way to look human (Hat of Disguise, etc), not be tortured and killed over hearing Janiven's pitch (hopefully without turning Janiven in, not out of any love for Janiven, but only since Laeniaxis has been involved with this group, so turning in Janiven will probably get Laeniaxis killed too), help people (potentially dealing with the problems in Westcrown, but her confidence has been shaken by this whole thing right now--maybe she'll be ready for that after she gets something to boost morale).
Gnome Sorcerer--Make money for food and such (seems like he's on board with Janiven because she paid him 3 gold), not being tortured and killed over hearing Janiven's speech (for him, this means making sure all Hellknights who could link him to any of this must die and have their bodies lost in the sewers, away from Speak with Dead. Fortunately, this is the case, and all those who knew of the sewer search are also dead thanks to the Eidolon)
Paladin--Try to forget that he just saw Hellknights being slaughtered in the sewers / come to grips with everything vis-a-vis his code, help people with the problems in Westcrown
Cleric (she's the toughie, and the player, who most dislikes making new characters, will probably have to make a new one)--Find some way (without turning her in) to prevent Janiven from recruiting troubled youths and indoctrinating them: the player saw Janiven's MO and choice of people to gather (going so far as to say she picked us all because we had suffered) as highly reminiscent of the way real life terrorist groups get their members, produce works of beauty and happiness for people in Westcrown, help with the problems in Westcrown
As you can see, helping with the problems is on there for everyone, so with the right hook to start (for instance, a different sort of NPC offering them to join a non-anti-government group that just wanted to help Westcrown's folk), the group could have been roped in easily.
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No offence but I think you and your players are seeing way to much into this and are coming to conclusions that aren't there. I mean the way you make the children of westcrown sound is nothing like the way it came across to me in the books. Unfortunately I cant really go into details without spoiling the entire Ap. Although I will say Janiven is supposed to pitch the idea like a neighbour hood watch to protect the people so it is possible your Dm has came on to strongly with Janiven
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As you can see, helping with the problems is on there for everyone, so with the right hook to start (for instance, a different sort of NPC offering them to join a non-anti-government group that just wanted to help Westcrown's folk), the group could have been roped in easily.
I mean this is what gets me the thing you want is exactly how the children of westcrown are described in the book
Janiven is very fortunate that your heroes did not want ther to be tortured.
Darker (or even more neutral) heroes would likely have given her to the Hellknights that show up presently.
The immediate "Citizen's Arrest" would likely have gotten your heroes off without having to actually endure torture yourselves.
I admit, the thought crossed the characters' minds for a time. Our good alignment and the fact that Janiven's torture might lead to the NPC Paladin's torture and death clinched it (sidenote--I'm really happy that I invented this NPC Paladin that tied together my PC and the two Shelyners, she's been absurdly useful, and I do recommend having a PC friend who's already involved like that to GMs who plan on running it).
She is not "sketchy" enough. What she says to the player characters is still more then enough to get her exicuted by the authorities.
The funny thing is, if she just left off the line at the end of her speech, it would have been fine--mildly inappropriate in the middle for a bit, and if she said it straight to a Hellknight's face, they'd find things to take offense at it, but nothing of the level of the last line.
Actually, I would like to make a couple of points about these characters.
Paladin--Try to forget that he just saw Hellknights being slaughtered in the sewers / come to grips with everything vis-a-vis his code, help people with the problems in Westcrown
Janiven is right. While House Thrune and their Allies are the Lawful authority, they are actively evil. I, personally, do not believe that a Paladin must cooperate in this situation.
Cleric (she's the toughie, and the player, who most dislikes making new characters, will probably have to make a new one)--Find some way (without turning her in) to prevent Janiven from recruiting troubled youths and indoctrinating them: the player saw Janiven's MO and choice of people to gather (going so far as to say she picked us all because we had suffered) as highly reminiscent of the way real life terrorist groups get their members, produce works of beauty and happiness for people in Westcrown, help with the problems in Westcrown
In a semi-spoiler, later in this adventure you meet another member of the Children of Westcrown who would be able to help shorten Janiven's leash a bit.
The funny thing is, if she just left off the line at the end of her speech, it would have been fine--mildly inappropriate in the middle for a bit, and if she said it straight to a Hellknight's face, they'd find things to take offense at it, but nothing of the level of the last line.She is not "sketchy" enough. What she says to the player characters is still more then enough to get her exicuted by the authorities.
Agreed.
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Agreed.The funny thing is, if she just left off the line at the end of her speech, it would have been fine--mildly inappropriate in the middle for a bit, and if she said it straight to a Hellknight's face, they'd find things to take offense at it, but nothing of the level of the last line.She is not "sketchy" enough. What she says to the player characters is still more then enough to get her exicuted by the authorities.
The speech the hellknights know nothing about? I mean the hellknights aren't there because she is giving a speech they are there because...
As you can see, helping with the problems is on there for everyone, so with the right hook to start (for instance, a different sort of NPC offering them to join a non-anti-government group that just wanted to help Westcrown's folk), the group could have been roped in easily.I mean this is what gets me the thing you want is exactly how the children of westcrown are described in the book
It probably got lost in my long post, but I already could guess that this is the truth of the organisation. However, the GM read the text directly from the adventure and Janiven sells it as what it isn't, directly shouting that her goal is to overthrow the House of Thrune as her final line in her speech (for those of you who like Roman history, I compared her with my group to Cato and his final line of 'Carthage must be destroyed').
The fact that I was pretty sure we weren't supposed to be rebels or something is exactly why I was upset with the hook so much (I mentioned in an earlier post "I don't think the Player's Guide made it clear that you are doing 'la resistance' in this AP, and I have heard that the AP actually is not about that and that other GMs have had players get carried away wanting to overthrow Thrune. If it's more about (and this is a guess) fighting the Shadow Beasts, dealing with the influence of the Council of Thieves (whatever that is), getting thugs off the streets, you could get our PCs to do that for free just by mentioning where we could go about doing these things.")
I can't blame the GM for misportraying Janiven as too extreme--she has revealed specific instances where she made Janiven actually less crazy than as written. Janiven is a firebrand and that's okay--hey in fact having someone like her in the group is actually pretty darn cool, but I think maybe she should have been a subsidiary character and someone more level-headed should have been chosen to recruit the PCs. We want to save Westcrown, we really do. We just don't want to fight the authorities.
The speech the hellknights know nothing about? I mean the hellknights aren't there because she is giving a speech they are there because...Agreed.The funny thing is, if she just left off the line at the end of her speech, it would have been fine--mildly inappropriate in the middle for a bit, and if she said it straight to a Hellknight's face, they'd find things to take offense at it, but nothing of the level of the last line.She is not "sketchy" enough. What she says to the player characters is still more then enough to get her exicuted by the authorities.
True. But this is really about the character's motivations.
Loyal Chelaxians may have a minor problem with her speach, but they would have a major problem with how she ends it.
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I can't blame the GM for misportraying Janiven as too extreme--she has revealed specific instances where she made Janiven actually less crazy than as written. Janiven is a firebrand and that's okay--hey in fact having someone like her in the group is actually pretty darn cool, but I think maybe she should have been a subsidiary character and someone more level-headed should have been chosen to recruit the PCs. We want to save Westcrown, we really do. We just don't...
Ah I see what the problem is now you see Janiven is not the one that is supposed to give the speech...
So I can assure you that what the players guide describes is actually pretty accurate
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My take on the OP's situation is a little different than most's, it seems. From my perspective (with one major exception that I will address in a moment) it isn't so much that the GM failed to depict Janiven accurately, it's that he failed to depict Westcrown accurately.
The OP's reaction and those of the other players would be far more in line with what I would expect for a group operating in, say, Egorian, right under the eyes of the House of Thrune. Westcrown, however, works rather differently. First, unlike the OP's apparent belief, the Hellknights aren't everywhere, watching everyone, for the greater glory of House Thrune. They aren't, strictly speaking, even aligned with Thrune directly - they support them because they share similar goals and Thrune is the legitimate government, but they are independent entities with occasionally very different perspectives on things. Moreover, in Westcrown, they are only barely tolerated, even by the city authorities, who consider them meddling zealots that don't do much except make the city harder to control. So while everyone does, in fact, fear the Hellknights, for most people it's a somewhat distant fear, distant enough to transmute itself into resentment or even hatred anytime the 'Knights aren't actually breathing down their necks.
Second, Thrune just doesn't keep that close an eye on Westcrown. They consider it the past, and Egorian the future; they have more or less shoved all the remnants of the old Empire (the pre-diabolist nobility, in particular) inside Westcrown's walls and forgotten about it. They are, in fact, aware that this likely means there are Aroden-worshipping rebels or somesuch nonsense there, but they consider the city's will to be "broken," effectively, and just not a threat to Cheliax's power in the grand scheme of things. (A large part of the AP, in fact, is trying to prove them wrong...) All of which means that sedition, while still dangerous, isn't the sort of thing that most people would utterly freak out about in Westcrown, because the Secret Police aren't listening outside every door, and most people have at some point or other thought - or even said - similar things, if only to themselves or their closest family and friends. (Which is not to say that there aren't agents provacateurs in Westcrown - but there probably aren't that many of them, and they probably consider it a lousy assignment.)
Finally, the Wiscrani still, on some level, hold onto the idea that once upon a time, they were prophesied to be the future center of the world, the home of a living god and the holiest place on the planet. The fact that this turned out not to be the case did, in fact, break a lot of people, but it's still there, burning in their memories and their subconscious, waiting to find a way to break back out again. That's the awareness that Janiven and her associates are trying to tap into, and it's why they have already managed to acquire the followers they have.
There is one point, however, where I do think the GM screwed up in his depiction of Janiven. Yes, she really does want to see Thrune fall, but she has been convinced by Arael's arguments that revolution isn't the answer, and it's extremely important to the plot and the overall tone of the "rebellion" that this point gets emphasized. What the "rebels" are planning isn't actually illegal, beyond the end goal of seeing a non-diabolical Westcrown. They aren't planning to challenge the city's legitimate authority. They aren't going to incite rebellion in the streets, or even say mean things about Hell or Cheliax. They just want to be heroes, so as to make the citizens of the city want to return to the old ways - evolution, not revolution, just by demonstrating there's another, better way to live. The entire plan was developed by a priest of Iomedae, fer cryin' out loud! He's not going to argue for armed rebellion, and Janiven should make that very clear to the PCs right from the start.
Well, those Hellknights, admittedly, are raw recruits. So, not the cream of the crop. Nevertheless, the rep of the Hellknights should pretty well have served to get you running if you were thinking of them as 1984's Thought Police. Tortured if you get caught? Yep. Tortured if you turn yourself in? Yep. Better not be caught.
That said, remember that the Hellknights don't run Westcrown. It's far to big for them to routinely police effectively and the local dottari are a lot less dangerous. The size of the city at over 100,000 residents works in your favor.
I'll be starting running the campaign as soon as we finish wrapping up Shackled City. It's not grabbing me quite as much as Crimson Throne is, but it's got some good ideas in it. I don't really think, based on my reading of the first 4 segments, that the Hellknights have been overused so far.
My suggestion is to ride it out a bit more and keep an open mind. It may be that your DM hasn't really portrayed Janiven as deftly as he might have. She's a good egg. Just a bit excitable. And while she was the one who made the contacts, she was not the one who was meant to make the pitch to recruit you. That was her half-elf friend had he not been captured. So, she's not really at her best. Try to forgive her.
Thank you, those are some good insights to think about. Ironically, you and I are of the same mind with your last few statements about Janiven. I figured as much as a player, just not as a character. That's why my suggestion to our GM was to have another member of her organisation come tell us a similar thing in character. Good to know that an experienced AP GM also came to the same conclusion about Janiven.
Give it enough time to work past your first impression and I think you'll get along with the gist of the adventure path just fine. But keep in mind that not all tieflings have a very positive attitude in Westcrown and may serve as some of those very thugs you'd be interested in knocking down.
Awesome, and understood. The character thinks of Tiefling status as a curse. Those like you describe have earned their curse. The others should be as good as they can, and maybe the curse will be lifted, or maybe it won't, but they'll prove to the gods that they were worthy to be consider people too.
Actually, I would like to make a couple of points about these characters.
Janiven is right. While House Thrune and their Allies are the Lawful authority, they are actively evil. I, personally, do not believe that a Paladin must cooperate in this situation.
To be fair, the Paladin was 100% down with evading or KOing them, he just didn't want them killed. They were brutally chopped into bits with an axe while helpless by the Gnome.
To be fair, the Paladin was 100% down with evading or KOing them, he just didn't want them killed. They were brutally chopped into bits with an axe while helpless by the Gnome.Actually, I would like to make a couple of points about these characters.
Janiven is right. While House Thrune and their Allies are the Lawful authority, they are actively evil. I, personally, do not believe that a Paladin must cooperate in this situation.
At which point, the Paladin would have been morally correct to chop the Gnome to bits. :(
Killing helpless "prisoners" is hardly honorable, and rarely good - especially when these prisoners were officers of the law attempting to do their duty. (Killing one in combat would be iffy enough for a Paladin, but what the Gnome did is murder.)
My take on the OP's situation is a little different than most's, it seems. From my perspective (with one major exception that I will address in a moment) it isn't so much that the GM failed to depict Janiven accurately, it's that he failed to depict Westcrown accurately.
The OP's reaction and those of the other players would be far more in line with what I would expect for a group operating in, say, Egorian, right under the eyes of the House of Thrune. Westcrown, however, works rather differently. First, unlike the OP's apparent belief, the Hellknights aren't everywhere, watching everyone, for the greater glory of House Thrune. They aren't, strictly speaking, even aligned with Thrune directly - they support them because they share similar goals and Thrune is the legitimate government, but they are independent entities with occasionally very different perspectives on things. Moreover, in Westcrown, they are only barely tolerated, even by the city authorities, who consider them meddling zealots that don't do much except make the city harder to control. So while everyone does, in fact, fear the Hellknights, for most people it's a somewhat distant fear, distant enough to transmute itself into resentment or even hatred anytime the 'Knights aren't actually breathing down their necks.
Second, Thrune just doesn't keep that close an eye on Westcrown. They consider it the past, and Egorian the future; they have more or less shoved all the remnants of the old Empire (the pre-diabolist nobility, in particular) inside Westcrown's walls and forgotten about it. They are, in fact, aware that this likely means there are Aroden-worshipping rebels or somesuch nonsense there, but they consider the city's will to be "broken," effectively, and just not a threat to Cheliax's power in the grand scheme of things. (A large part of the AP, in fact, is trying to prove them wrong...) All of which means that sedition, while still dangerous, isn't the sort of thing that most people would utterly freak out about in...
Whoa, awesome post Shisumo! This is full of good stuff. I'll point out that the GM didn't tell us anything about Westcrown. We got this impression from Paizo's awesome Cheliax, Empire of Devils, and the Player's Guide. CEoD told us things about the whole country, and the PG didn't tell us that Westcrown was an exception to those.
Just a few questions--it says that Westcrown is the height of power for the Order of the Rack, the very base of those history-revisionists is right next door and book-burnings are a regular event, so it doesn't seem like they're so distant from the PG perspective.
There is one point, however, where I do think the GM screwed up in his depiction of Janiven. Yes, she really does want to see Thrune fall, but she has been convinced by Arael's arguments that revolution isn't the answer, and it's extremely important to the plot and the overall tone of the "rebellion" that this point gets emphasized. What the "rebels" are planning isn't actually illegal, beyond the end goal of seeing a non-diabolical Westcrown. They aren't planning to challenge the city's legitimate authority. They aren't going to incite rebellion in the streets, or even say mean things about Hell or Cheliax. They just want to be heroes, so as to make the citizens of the city want to return to the old ways - evolution, not revolution, just by demonstrating there's another, better way to live. The entire plan was developed by a priest of Iomedae, fer cryin' out loud! He's not going to argue for armed rebellion, and Janiven should make that very clear to the PCs right from the start.
To be fair to the GM, Janiven never argued for armed rebellion. She simply called for Thrune's downfall. One of the posts from PurpleDragonKnight upthread had some very helpful stuff, but one of the things he said seemed to indicate that the characters should be 'viva la resistance' types, and any comment on rebellion is in reference to that idea, not anything Janiven said specifically.
To be fair, the Paladin was 100% down with evading or KOing them, he just didn't want them killed. They were brutally chopped into bits with an axe while helpless by the Gnome.Actually, I would like to make a couple of points about these characters.
Janiven is right. While House Thrune and their Allies are the Lawful authority, they are actively evil. I, personally, do not believe that a Paladin must cooperate in this situation.
At which point, the Paladin would have been morally correct to chop the Gnome to bits. :(
Killing helpless "prisoners" is hardly honorable, and rarely good - especially when these prisoners were officers of the law attempting to do their duty. (Killing one in combat would be iffy enough for a Paladin, but what the Gnome did is murder.)
They were helpless due to being Colour Sprayed. The Gnome's justification is that they knew everyone's faces and we were all dead if they told the other HKs. I mean, my Neutral Good character bought it as legit but was still extremely sketched out and stayed way out of reach of the Gnome and his axe.
I can't blame the GM for misportraying Janiven as too extreme--she has revealed specific instances where she made Janiven actually less crazy than as written. Janiven is a firebrand and that's okay--hey in fact having someone like her in the group is actually pretty darn cool, but I think maybe she should have been a subsidiary character and someone more level-headed should have been chosen to recruit the PCs. We want to save Westcrown, we really do. We just don't...
Ah I see what the problem is now you see Janiven is not the one that is supposed to give the speech...
** spoiler omitted **
So I can assure you that what the players guide describes is actually pretty accurate
Cool! That was my first thought (as mentioned in my first reply post). That means we're probably okay if the GM does what I suggested to her and has another NPC come and tell us Janiven was just being extreme.
On the other hand, Shisumo is saying some very interesting things, and I'm still very interested in the ideas coming in this thread.
Thanks to everyone so far for the great discussion and suggestions--you guys in the Paizo community are great!
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I'm running CoT (we're about to start into the big first part of Part 2), and other than the player who chose to not heed my advice about what kinds of characters to make (and made a fully into himself backstabbing con-artist), our group (including our Paladin) have had absolutely no problems with the motivations in this campaign. I've read the thread and I see almost a twofold problem. First, it sounds like the DM didn't read ahead far enough to give the players the right kind of advice and campaign feel (and isn't trying to clarify things), and second, the players aren't willing to be flexible in the slightest.
The module is about helping Westcrown (the former capital and social hub of Cheliax) gain back its honor, reputation, and make it safe for its citizens again. Read Shisumo's post for a very good description of why this is so (it's VERY important). Janiven and Arael believe the re-integration of Westcrown's glory cannot be done through violence and killing (and in fact, Janiven states on several occasions that killing Hellknights is a very bad thing), but instead by making its citizens believe in themselves again by acts of heroism meant to help them. It's about overthrowing Thrune not by violence, and not even by "terrorism" as you put it, but instead by making people believe again. If your DM isn't trying to portray that, then maybe that's one area that things need to be beefed up in your campaign.
Alternatively, it sounds like you are all so hellbent on certain ways of thinking and keep turning to the "it's written that way, so I'm going to think this way" school of thought. Too many times I've seen you write, "it says X in the campaign book." I know that it's the place where you go for a basis of your information, but you have to be flexible when playing APs (I made sure my players knew before we started playing that this was an set of adventures with a theme, and that failure to buy into the theme meant they weren't going to have fun).
Other's have posted good ideas on what kinds of things you could be doing as a player. The Paladin code for example wouldn't outright prohibit a Paladin who believes in the "old law" of Westcrown from participating, or your Cleric, who brought in real-life "modern" opinions of what makes people Terrorists into her reasoning of why she didn't want to help Janiven (one person's "terrorist" is another person's "freedom fighter"), or the Gnome who sounds like he just has to done down his fears to a level more consistent with the Hellknight's power (I don't think I'm ruining anything by mentioning that their prominence in the campaign is about as high as their prominence in Westcrown)
All I'm trying to say is that you guys need to be a little more flexible (both player and DM), and give it a chance. It really is a fun AP.
I'm running CoT (we're about to start into the big first part of Part 2), and other than the player who chose to not heed my advice about what kinds of characters to make (and made a fully into himself backstabbing con-artist), our group (including our Paladin) have had absolutely no problems with the motivations in this campaign. I've read the thread and I see almost a twofold problem. First, it sounds like the DM didn't read ahead far enough to give the players the right kind of advice and campaign feel (and isn't trying to clarify things), and second, the players aren't willing to be flexible in the slightest.
The module is about helping Westcrown (the former capital and social hub of Cheliax) gain back its honor, reputation, and make it safe for its citizens again. Read Shisumo's post for a very good description of why this is so (it's VERY important). Janiven and Arael believe the re-integration of Westcrown's glory cannot be done through violence and killing (and in fact, Janiven states on several occasions that killing Hellknights is a very bad thing), but instead by making its citizens believe in themselves again by acts of heroism meant to help them. It's about overthrowing Thrune not by violence, and not even by "terrorism" as you put it, but instead by making people believe again. If your DM isn't trying to portray that, then maybe that's one area that things need to be beefed up in your campaign.
Alternatively, it sounds like you are all so hellbent on certain ways of thinking and keep turning to the "it's written that way, so I'm going to think this way" school of thought. Too many times I've seen you write, "it says X in the campaign book." I know that it's the place where you go for a basis of your information, but you have to be flexible when playing APs (I made sure my players knew before we started playing that this was an set of adventures with a theme, and that failure to buy into the theme meant they weren't going to have fun).
Other's have posted good ideas on what kinds of...
Good thoughts! I have to say, as a long-time GM, I kind of figured it was going the way you say from the PG. Interestingly, you didn't mention my character of the four, which doesn't surprise me too much. I mean, I made my character to try to fit in with the AP as much as humanly possible from my reading of the PG (a true 'Child of Westcrown' if you will, almost an avatar of the city and its problems):
Elysiel is a Tiefling whose Grandmother was an Angel in service of Aroden whose sorrow and loss at Aroden's death caused her to lose hope and fall, becoming an Erinyes. Elysiel herself worships Iomedae, the heritor of Aroden's promise, and also venerates Shelyn, who she hopes will help lift her ugly Tiefling curse; Elysiel sees herself is ugly, but her distinctive features actually make her quite beautiful, if she could only be convinced to see it, and to see her full inner worth. Elysiel is a kind soul, but very shy and soft-spoken. She is a loyal citisen of Cheliax, and she does not want to stir unrest, but she does want to help people, she just needs something to rekindle her belief and help her rise to action.
I made this character to be easy to fit into the AP and help the GM have an easier time. Shouldn't that character have had no problem joining up, given the theme and scope of the AP?
We made it just past the sewers now, and I don't know how to spell her name, but Jenoven is insane and has turned off everyone in the party except for the more-opportunistic gnome.
I think the quickest and best solution would be a bit of historical revision; rather than roll new characters, or try to find some clunky way to keep the ones you've created motivated, your group should just hand-wave the outright sedition in Jenoven's speech, and have it cleave a bit more toward the "neighborhood watch with fireballs" pitch.
Honestly, that opening adventure is pretty poor on a number of levels, but they do get much better and the story will be well worth following. :)
We made it just past the sewers now, and I don't know how to spell her name, but Jenoven is insane and has turned off everyone in the party except for the more-opportunistic gnome.I think the quickest and best solution would be a bit of historical revision; rather than roll new characters, or try to find some clunky way to keep the ones you've created motivated, your group should just hand-wave the outright sedition in Jenoven's speech, and have it cleave a bit more toward the "neighborhood watch with fireballs" pitch.
Honestly, that opening adventure is pretty poor on a number of levels, but they do get much better and the story will be well worth following. :)
That could definitely work too--I've just suggested it as an alternative to the GM. I've heard that overall the AP is very good, and we all love the flavour of Cheliax and all the little things Paizo does to help bring it all to life.
The only problem is that it may require more handwaving overall to retcon some of the other later reactions that led to the order we proceeded through the sewers--we'll see if we can make it less clunky from either your suggestion or from having an NPC from her group come and tell us that Jan's a bit rattled right now and misspoke and that the group is less seditious than she made it seem.
Also, Chris, question--if you retcon that out, why couldn't the PCs just not run from the Hellknights and stay in the tavern? My instinct (from usually GMing) is that the seditious line was put in there by the author to make the PCs fear being caught, since they could now be considered accomplice to sedition. Without it, the Hellknights have nothing, which won't stop them, mind, but running seems to be giving them an excuse.
UPDATE:
Thanks to everyone so far for your advice and helpful suggestions. Our GM is probably going to be going the path of having another NPC come and talk to us about Janiven. Based on what all of you (and the GM) said, I'd like to help her by coming up with a sample script that I think could work. Since you guys know the adventure path better, can you tell me if there are any flaws here before I send it to her? It would be given by an Arael-esque figure.
"Hello there, brave children of Westcrown. I heard that the way Janiven approached you all troubled you, and for that I am deeply sorry. You must understand, Janiven is a good person, but she's outspoken at the best of times, and these times...well, they are not her best. With Arael, our leader and Janiven's true love, imprisoned unrightfully, you can understand how she is under great stress. Please forgive her if she has put you off and allow me to explain:
What Janiven told you is not strictly false, but it probably gave you the wrong impression. We are a group of people who want to help the poor in Westcrown to have a better life, not by tearing down order but simply by performing acts of charity, kindness, and heroism. We want this city to be safe again, we want to see the hope in people's eyes again, we want to protect Westcrown's most valuable treasure, our people. We want Westcrown to belong to its true children, not the beasts in the shadows or the thugs who rape and pillage while nothing is done to stop it.
Now, once these things are done, we truly hope that in the long term, the pride and glory of Westcrown can be rekindled. We want to see smiles on the faces of our neighbours and laughing children in the streets, not rotting garbage and faces full of despair.
Many of us think that what House Thrune has done to Cheliax and to Westcrown is not the way we were destined to be. That doesn't mean we want to attack the government, but we believe that our peaceful efforts will help people see that, and these small changes will bring about a change of heart in Westcrown and perhaps across Cheliax. If House Thrune loses some support from this and we return to a better way, this is wonderful, and people like Janiven dream about such things, but that is a distant dream and a far indirect consequence. Most of us are more realistic--that will probably never happen, but even so, we have still done what we could to protect our own and to restore Westcrown's hope."
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You'll get that more level-headed NPC about in the middle of the module. The two leaders balance each other. Just hang in there.
Also, in my game the "leaders" have turned into guides more than anything. I'm having them work with the others (NPCs) while the PCs are busy to keep their levels high enough to be useful.
This was a fairly hard start to an adventure for me, being a new DM and all. Luckily most of the time my players are willing to hand wave a lot of stuff and just tease me every once in a while. (two of the remaining three are good roleplayers and one is a very experienced DM - the other is a somewhat new player and easy-going)
Perhaps you can point your DM to this thread. It could really help her in getting the players on board. I know it would have helped me, but we're past that part now.
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UPDATE:
Thanks to everyone so far for your advice and helpful suggestions. Our GM is probably going to be going the path of having another NPC come and talk to us about Janiven. Based on what all of you (and the GM) said, I'd like to help her by coming up with a sample script that I think could work. Since you guys know the adventure path better, can you tell me if there are any flaws here before I send it to her? It would be given by an Arael-esque figure.
"Hello there, brave children of Westcrown. I heard that the way Janiven approached you all troubled you, and for that I am deeply sorry. You must understand, Janiven is a good person, but she's outspoken at the best of times, and these times...well, they are not her best. With Arael, our leader and Janiven's true love, imprisoned unrightfully, you can understand how she is under great stress. Please forgive her if she has put you off and allow me to explain:
What Janiven told you is not strictly false, but it probably gave you the wrong impression. We are a group of people who want to help the poor in Westcrown to have a better life, not by tearing down order but simply by performing acts of charity, kindness, and heroism. We want this city to be safe again, we want to see the hope in people's eyes again, we want to protect Westcrown's most valuable treasure, our people. We want Westcrown to belong to its true children, not the beasts in the shadows or the thugs who rape and pillage while nothing is done to stop it.
Now, once these things are done, we truly hope that in the long term, the pride and glory of Westcrown can be rekindled. We want to see smiles on the faces of our neighbours and laughing children in the streets, not rotting garbage and faces full of despair.
Many of us think that what House Thrune has done to Cheliax and to Westcrown is not the way we were destined to be. That doesn't mean we want to attack the government, but we believe that our peaceful efforts will help people see that, and these small changes will...
Hm.. In order of mention:
I wouldn't negate Janiven's "authority," just say that she is a bit more rebellious than Arael wants to take the group, which is one reason why Arael must be found, to restore order to the Children of Westcrown. (I do hate that name, btw. They chose Scions of Westcrown)In my game they are business partners, not lovers. - And the tavern becomes Janiven's and, at the recommendation of the PCs, tailors its services to the Dottari and the Hellknights that are in town.
We can influence the government by gaining the support of the people. As long as we step carefully, we can achieve our goals. Stop the thugs, bring back the night, and (if important to your characters) restore Westcrown's true history in the books and minds of the people.
The rallying cry of my group is to reduce crime and "Bring back the night!"
You'll get that more level-headed NPC about in the middle of the module. The two leaders balance each other. Just hang in there.
Also, in my game the "leaders" have turned into guides more than anything. I'm having them work with the others (NPCs) while the PCs are busy to keep their levels high enough to be useful.
This was a fairly hard start to an adventure for me, being a new DM and all. Luckily most of the time my players are willing to hand wave a lot of stuff and just tease me every once in a while. (two of the remaining three are good roleplayers and one is a very experienced DM - the other is a somewhat new player and easy-going)
Perhaps you can point your DM to this thread. It could really help her in getting the players on board. I know it would have helped me, but we're past that part now.
The characters really need a voice like that now, before they turn too much against the organisation to be salvaged (in the situation as it stands, since Arael is probably the voice to which you refer, it would be a bit of a Catch-22 unless we use the "your NPC friend was kidnapped too" hook, there's just no way in the Hells that the PCs could be convinced to go attack the Hellknights and free Arael) Fortunately, the GM says there's an aspiring Bard Expert there who can still be the voice of this sort of thing before we get to Arael.
Hm.. In order of mention:
I wouldn't negate Janiven's "authority," just say that she is a bit more rebellious than Arael wants to take the group, which is one reason why Arael must be found, to restore order to the Children of Westcrown. (I do hate that name, btw. They chose Scions of Westcrown)In my game they are business partners, not lovers. - And the tavern becomes Janiven's and, at the recommendation of the PCs, tailors its services to the Dottari and the Hellknights that are in town.
We can influence the government by gaining the support of the people. As long as we step carefully, we can achieve our goals. Stop the thugs, bring back the night, and (if important to your characters) restore Westcrown's true history in the books and minds of the people.
The rallying cry of my group is to reduce crime and "Bring back the night!"
Thanks for the feedback! The last bit in particular has some good stuff--this is what the PCs will want to do: step carefully, stop the thugs, bring back the night.
My take on the OP's situation is a little different than most's, it seems. From my perspective (with one major exception that I will address in a moment) it isn't so much that the GM failed to depict Janiven accurately, it's that he failed to depict Westcrown accurately.
The OP's reaction and those of the other players would be far more in line with what I would expect for a group operating in, say, Egorian, right under the eyes of the House of Thrune. Westcrown, however, works rather differently. First, unlike the OP's apparent belief, the Hellknights aren't everywhere, watching everyone, for the greater glory of House Thrune. They aren't, strictly speaking, even aligned with Thrune directly - they support them because they share similar goals and Thrune is the legitimate government, but they are independent entities with occasionally very different perspectives on things. Moreover, in Westcrown, they are only barely tolerated, even by the city authorities, who consider them meddling zealots that don't do much except make the city harder to control. So while everyone does, in fact, fear the Hellknights, for most people it's a somewhat distant fear, distant enough to transmute itself into resentment or even hatred anytime the 'Knights aren't actually breathing down their necks.
Second, Thrune just doesn't keep that close an eye on Westcrown. They consider it the past, and Egorian the future; they have more or less shoved all the remnants of the old Empire (the pre-diabolist nobility, in particular) inside Westcrown's walls and forgotten about it. They are, in fact, aware that this likely means there are Aroden-worshipping rebels or somesuch nonsense there, but they consider the city's will to be "broken," effectively, and just not a threat to Cheliax's power in the grand scheme of things. (A large part of the AP, in fact, is trying to prove them wrong...) All of which means that sedition, while still dangerous, isn't the sort of thing that most people would utterly freak out about in...
This is the idea I get from the AP. Well described.
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It seems a very fun path, I just wish the PG had told us to make these types of characters, if it is necessary. Our GM has told me that the stuff you wind up doing in the path is like what the PG says (hero things, not revolutionary things), so I think maybe just the problem for some groups (mine and Lord Fyre's at least) is just that this organisation of Janiven's is too extreme for them; it seems like they could have presented an organisation that is more moderate in the path and still had it cohere (with an optional sidebar for a more revolutionary group if your players preferred).
I think the Player's Guide is great, and gives a lot of good info about Westcrown, but the problem here seems to be that a) the players know too much, and in fact it seems like you have read the AP; and b) the DM did not give you enough feedback during character creation.
The Player's Guide even suggests that the players might want to think about becoming a Hellknight(!), which really really seemed to imply a different direction.
Not really, as there are a lot of competition between various Hellknight orders... hellknight orders have fought each other in the past...
Lord Fyre--Good, my fellow players and I are not crazy then. Your analysis is exactly what we got out of the document as well, and you can imagine how disappointed we were that our character concepts were all at odds with the AP when we spent hours of time specifically trying to be helpful to the GM by reading the PG and making characters appropriately.
This is not actually true.The Council of Thieves Player's Guide is an amazingly unhelpful document when it comes to creating characters that will be motivated to participate in this adventure path.
A no point does it actually say that the Player Characters should have specific grievances with the government of Westcrown. (That information is actually on page 10 of The Bastards of Erebus - which no player is likely to read.)
You're definitely not alone -- I was also skeptical about the beginning of the module. Janiven asks some people she barely knows to join an anti-government cabal and openly defy the Hellknights? That's a tough request to obey unless your character is a die-hard revolutionary in the first place.
I haven't run the AP yet, but I see two problems in the posts here.
One, as Shisumo mentioned, is the mis-communication or mis-understanding of how different Westcrown is from the rest of Cheliax.
The other is the reading of 1984 elements into Cheliax. The PCs sound like they are too frightened to be heroes. The vibe should be less 1984 and more "Cold War spy drama". There are informers, secret police, and the heavy-handed authoritarian military; but there are helpful citizens who don't like what their home has become, and there is hope. Think early seasons of the original Mission: Impossible television series more than 1984, and you may be better off.