So I've read the rules for grappling, and I wasn't sure if I understood them so I wrote out an example as how I understand it after looking at the rules. If someone has a flowchart, or can explain it better for me, please let me know what I have messed up in my understanding, thanks.
A monk will grapple the wizard. The monk makes a CMB check, rolls a D20 and adds his bab + strength + size + feats. In this case, lets assume that the monk is 1st level with improved grapple and a 14 strength.
Let’s also assume that the wizard is also 1st level and has a 10 strength and a 14 dexterity but no relevant feats to improve his CMD. In this case the wizard’s CMD = 12 (10 + 0 bab + 0 strength + 2 dexterity + no feats)
The monk rolls a D20 and adds +4 to his roll (+2 strength, +0 for bab, +2 to improved grapple). If the monk rolls a 10 then his CMB (14) is greater than the Wizards CMD(12) and he has successfully grappled the wizard. Now both the Monk & the Wizard gain the grappled condition.
Now it is the Wizards turn. He can try to break the grapple by Making his own CMB check vs the Monk's CMD or an Escape Artist check vs Monk's CMD. If successful, he can either choose to become the grappler (which means he is in control and can release grapple at any time) or break free and act normally. Instead of trying to escape, he can take actions that require only one hand, such as casting a spell(this is difficult) or attacking with a light or one handed weapon.
Now its back to the monk. He makes a check again, his CMB (this time with an additional +5 circumstance bonus) vs Wizard CMD. Upon success, he has various options. He can either move both himself and the wizard, do damage, or pin (a pretty nasty status to be in) the wizard. Once pinned he can also tie the wizard up. If he fails, he lets go of the wizard.
And that would continue until the grapple stops. This is how I understand the rules after reading them. One thing I am iffy on is if the monk has to wait a turn until he can deal damage / pin or can it happen the turn he initiates the grapple. Am I missing something? Can anyone explain or clarify anything that I have messed up? Thank you.
It looks correct, and I don't think you missed anything (other than the fact that the grapple ends if the grappler doesn't spend a standard action continuing the grapple on his turn).
A couple things:
A spellcaster who has the grappled condition can only cast spells that have no somatic components, and if the spell has material components those need to be in his hand. See page 206. Spellcaster must make a concentration check (DC=10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Grappled creatures don't get to make Attacks of Opportunities, so the spellcaster doesn't need to cast defensively unless he is threatened by other enemies.
There is a discreprency between this and the information under "If you are Grappled" on page 201. On page 201 it says "you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell..." So I guess it could be read either way. In any event the concentration check is still needed.
It looks to me like the monk would have to wait till his next standard action after initiating the grapple in order to deal damage with a grapple. (i.e. his first turn after initiating the grapple. This could be pretty soon though if he initiated the grapple in response to an Attack of Opportunity.)
If he takes the Greater Grapple feat he can maintain (but not initiate) the grapple as a move action. So with that feat, if he started his turn adjacent to the wizard, he could initiate the grapple with a standard action, and if successful immediately use his move action to maintain the grapple and deal damage. And on subsequent turns he could then maintain the grapple twice a turn to deal damage or attempt to pin.
If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?
If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?
No, grappling is a standard action; you can't substitute it for a normal attack.
I'm asking all of this on behalf of one of my PCs. He had this to say in response.
"Ok so on the monks turn, it’s all or nothing, in that if she is able beat the CMD it hold and she can use take an action, up to and including damage that doesn’t have to roll to hit, if she fails he gets free on her turn, so he would be free to mess her up on his own turn. It seems too~ all or nothing you ether get guaranteed damage, or the guy gets free on your turn with your action taken up. If your grappling a wizard of cores it sounds easy, but if you move up to like a barbarian, it suddenly becomes “good luck, your going to need it” though it would be hard to get one in the grapple in the first place ^_^;"
He has that correct then?
If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?No, grappling is a standard action; you can't substitute it for a normal attack.
I believe that you can. An attack action is a standard action which grapple falls into. I see no reason why you can't substitute an attack of opportunity to grapple.
I believe that you can. An attack action is a standard action which grapple falls into. I see no reason why you can't substitute an attack of opportunity to grapple.If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?No, grappling is a standard action; you can't substitute it for a normal attack.
Here's the relevant quote from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action."
My interpretation of that sentence is that maneuvers that require a "specific action" can't be used as an attack of opportunity. Just my two cents, of course.
I'm asking all of this on behalf of one of my PCs. He had this to say in response.
"Ok so on the monks turn, it’s all or nothing, in that if she is able beat the CMD it hold and she can use take an action, up to and including damage that doesn’t have to roll to hit, if she fails he gets free on her turn, so he would be free to mess her up on his own turn. It seems too~ all or nothing you ether get guaranteed damage, or the guy gets free on your turn with your action taken up. If your grappling a wizard of cores it sounds easy, but if you move up to like a barbarian, it suddenly becomes “good luck, your going to need it” though it would be hard to get one in the grapple in the first place ^_^;"
He has that correct then?
Yes that sounds right.
It may be an "all or nothing" thing, but it has significant strategic value.
If hes wanting to just do damage to something, then grappling is not the way to go. Thats what flurry of blows is for.
But if he wants to immobilize something so that it can't get away, or can't cast spells easily, or so his friends can stick it with sharp pointy things, grappling can be the way to go.
And yeah, trying to grapple something with good physical stats and/or a good Base Attack Bonus is a risky proposition, even with Improved and Greater Grapple feats. But you just have to use your head. Don't try to grapple things like Ogres or raging Barbarians. Grapple wizards and commoners and weak looking clerics and smaller creatures.
I believe that you can. An attack action is a standard action which grapple falls into. I see no reason why you can't substitute an attack of opportunity to grapple.If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?No, grappling is a standard action; you can't substitute it for a normal attack.Here's the relevant quote from the Combat Maneuver rules:
"Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action."
My interpretation of that sentence is that maneuvers that require a "specific action" can't be used as an attack of opportunity. Just my two cents, of course.
Yeah I think you may be right. Grapple specifically uses a standard action, and you couldn't do multiple grapple attempts as part of a full-attack action. Other combat maneuvers like disarm, sunder, and trip can be used "in place of a melee attack." These could be done multiple times in a full attack action.
Seeing as that is different from how grapple worked in 3.5, where you could make a grapple attempt as an attack of opportunity, I'm inclined to agree that you can't do so now.
I believe that you can. An attack action is a standard action which grapple falls into. I see no reason why you can't substitute an attack of opportunity to grapple.If the wizard provokes as attack of opportunity you can try to initiate a grapple on him?No, grappling is a standard action; you can't substitute it for a normal attack.Here's the relevant quote from the Combat Maneuver rules:
Yeah I think you may be right. Grapple specifically uses a standard action, and you couldn't do multiple grapple attempts as part of a full-attack action. Other combat maneuvers like disarm, sunder, and trip can be used "in place of a melee attack." These could be done multiple times in a full attack action.
I see now, it looks as though the Combat Maneuvers that specifically use "in place of a melee attack", are the one's that could be substituted for an attack of opportunity while those that use "standard" actions would not. Thanks to you both for the clarification.
I would agree with that and apologize to the original poster if I might have caused any confusion.
And yeah, trying to grapple something with good physical stats and/or a good Base Attack Bonus is a risky proposition, even with Improved and Greater Grapple feats. But you just have to use your head. Don't try to grapple things like Ogres or raging Barbarians. Grapple wizards and commoners and weak looking clerics and smaller creatures.
and gnomes and cute furry bunnys and grasshoppers and butterflies and...
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Personally I've pretty much given up on grappling. If it only really works reliably on the weak and the small, I'm out. I'd rather just flurry them, maybe disarm the wizard and beat him with it. That would be fun.
And yeah, trying to grapple something with good physical stats and/or a good Base Attack Bonus is a risky proposition, even with Improved and Greater Grapple feats. But you just have to use your head. Don't try to grapple things like Ogres or raging Barbarians. Grapple wizards and commoners and weak looking clerics and smaller creatures.and gnomes and cute furry bunnys and grasshoppers and butterflies and...
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Personally I've pretty much given up on grappling. If it only really works reliably on the weak and the small, I'm out. I'd rather just flurry them, maybe disarm the wizard and beat him with it. That would be fun.
It can be really cinematic if you're lucky. I had a monk in CoTC who spent a ki point to leap 10' into the air and grapple a winged demon (natural 20 on CMB check), forcing it to the ground where the party then rushed it and pounded seven shades of s*** out of it. But you're right, it's not likely to work well on big bad guys.
Zo
