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This topic was derailing another thread so I started a new one.
I don't have "magic item shops". I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG. I assume that, if a player is buying a Handy Haversack, they probably found it at the Adventurer's Guild or from a bag shoppe. A +2 longsword was probably bought from a weaponsmith or the city guard.
I houseruled that the moment someone in the party fails their % chance, that item is not in the city and they must wait a period of time before the % chance increases a bit, to a maximum of 70%. How much it increases per week depends on the size of the city.
Cities with hospitals generally always have some curative potions, scrolls, and wands on hand for sale (best way to fund the hospital, actually).
Not even an elusive black market magic shoppe located in the bowels of a metropolitan city? I understand where you're getting at and for the most part, I'd agree. But sometimes there's always some form of comfort or familiarity with a resource that gives them a greater chance of obtaining X item if the price or task to complete is right.
A good idea, little golden one. I assume the same percentage chance applies to magical school and/or the Arcane District of cities?
It's generally for the whole city. If they are looking for a magical staff or scroll, it's a good bet it was bought at a magical school or guild. You can also adjudicate other things like this. A +1 dagger might be bought at the weaponsmith, but a character with thieves guild ties may have bought it from them instead.
I use this method for other things too. For example, the party Paladin wants to craft his own Mithril Full Plate. Every time he goes to a town, he looks for 100gp in Mithril. He rolls his 70% chance multiple times until he fails or runs out of money.
Not even an elusive black market magic shoppe located in the bowels of a metropolitan city? I understand where you're getting at and for the most part, I'd agree. But sometimes there's always some form of comfort or familiarity with a resource that gives them a greater chance of obtaining X item if the price or task to complete is right.
I might be open to increasing the % chance if someone has specific ties, but with that would also come the idea that some areas just wouldn't have specific items or it would be much harder to find such items regardless of cost. I'm concerned about this because I think the % chance has more to do with the thing actually being there in the first place rather than the characters' ability to find it.
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I just use the core rules to decide what items are available. It pretty much spells out how many minor/medium/major items should be for sale in a city. If I have items I want to be there, I place them in some of the slots, and I just use a random table to roll up the rest.
Every time the group hits a decent milestone in the campaign (like completing a mission or some other group oriented goal) I go down the list and chuck a dice. For minor items I use evens it was bought an odd roll it remains, for medium items I give it a 60/40 split (60% chance the item remains, 40% its gone) and for major items I use either a 70/30 split or an 80/20 depending on the campaign. I replace the items that rolled up sold and the ones the players bought with new random entries.
In cases where I have a city big enough to support any and all minor items I don't make a table for those items. I usually just the players buy those items if they are in the core book. I may add a few days wait time onto some purchases or use some purchases as minor encounters (especially if the items is considered evil by the society or has a dubious reputation, or just perhaps to let socially oriented characters get a moment in the spotlight).
I don't feel its really important to make every item available in every game. Most often I find that when I am restocking the shops the players actually enjoy helping me (my players love to roll magic items, and for some reason rolling ones for shops is still pretty entertaining to them). I figure if a player is determined to get an item they may travel to other cities, consult a sage to perhaps to set up a quest for said item, or even take the feats and craft it themselves.
So in short, I let them get whatever items the book says the city should have. In most cases they will eventually find a large city to get the minor items they need, and traveling to and fro can be an adventure in and of itself, and the system also rewards the players for trying to build up smaller cities they may be lairing near to increase the magic economy.
This has worked for me in PF so far with very good results. The only time I would make an exception is if I ran some type of apocalyptic campaign where there was no economy or perhaps a low magic game or some other story feature that would make it make sense.
love,
malkav
I am not a huge fan of the 'magic item shop' myself. I instead ask my players for a 'wish list' and incorporate much of the items they want into loot. For what's left I allow them to contract mages and weapon smiths to create the items. If you want a magic sword you get the sword smith to make you a masterwork sword and then go to the mage's guild to have it enchanted. This ofcourse requires that you have sufficient downtime in your adventure to allow this, but I like it better then the Magic-Mart idea.
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That´s basically what I do, every character has a written up wishlist that they cn update everytime they level up (on a forum design for my games). So whenever the chance prsents itsef I weave the purchase into the story. That way I don´t have to alter the existing WBL guides at all and still have it be flavorfull.
Adding more mechanics just seems unnecesaryly complicated.
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Besides, the growing conglomeration of Magic-Mart could potentially drop the prices on the magic items and put the mom-and-pop magic shoppes out of business. ;)
Besides, the growing conglomeration of Magic-Mart could potentially drop the prices on the magic items and put the mom-and-pop magic shoppes out of business. ;)
But they would be of lower quality and occassionaly have cursed items mixed in with good magic items. There are serious consequences to using forced labor to make your magic items ;)
Which would make the presence of these stores to be available. The PCs think they're getting a good deal and lo and behold....whoops! Would make for interesting role playing paybacks later. :D
I really could go on for quite a while (I wrote a paper detailing the theoretical economy of Eberron and how supply/demand of high-end items runs regionally), but the basic point is that both conditions must be met, which I leave up to chance unless the player wants to put forth a bit of extra work.
Being a fan of Eberron, that might be an interesting read. Our DM actually had a magic-mart in Zolanburg, but we figured ... well, they're gnomes. :P
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I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG.
I do something very similar using a d20 system. Here's the chart I made for my games: LINK
I am a little disappointed that in order to generate random items to populate my shops, I need to go back to tables in the SRD. I think the new mechanic is awesome, but it's sad they couldn't get all the necessary tables.
I used to have this outsider who was a sort of an extra-planar fence. Players asked him for certain items and then came back to him where he showed them a selection of items he could obtain similar to those that they asked for.
He wasn't cheap but he had pretty much everything!
Being a fan of Eberron, that might be an interesting read. Our DM actually had a magic-mart in Zolanburg, but we figured ... well, they're gnomes. :P
I really could go on for quite a while (I wrote a paper detailing the theoretical economy of Eberron and how supply/demand of high-end items runs regionally), but the basic point is that both conditions must be met, which I leave up to chance unless the player wants to put forth a bit of extra work.
I have to say i would be curious to read it as well.
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I am a little disappointed that in order to generate random items to populate my shops, I need to go back to tables in the SRD. I think the new mechanic is awesome, but it's sad they couldn't get all the necessary tables.
That is actually one of my major complaints about the core book. I really wish they had included charts for random treasure and random magic item generation. Sure its in a book that we all own, but so is a lot of the other stuff. I am hoping that this is one of the items addressed in the game mastery guide.
love,
malkav
I argued that Zolanburg is a supplier, but not the major market. When the party went there looking for purchases, all they could find were wholesalers uninterested in purchases less than a half-mil. That was +1 swords! Then they got the Gnome character to contact his family and their friends and found a few warehouse managers that would be willing to let some small purchases happen "for their friends".
The big market was in Sharn and [name of city in Xendrik I can't remember], since this was where adventurers came to buy the stuff! That, and in the pirate isles, where you could find anything reasonably, but "Remove Curse" was price-inflated...
And I will see if I can find a copy from my old hard drive, since some people seem interested in a rather dry economic analysis of a fictional world. I would love to post it for you all to fall asleep reading^__^
I think the city you're trying to think of is Stormreach. (?)
But yeah, even if it might put me to sleep, I'm still interested. Other than the major markets, I'm wondering where you would be considered the source of said supplies (aside from Xendrik due to the lost antiquities).
I generally have instituted magic-item brokers rather than magic item shops. The PCs might go into the city and contact one of these brokers and explain their wants and wishes and the broker will attempt to either find someone that has an item for sale or will contact an artificer (role not class) that can create the item as a custom order.
Expensive rare items will probably require the PCs to visit a major city and could take an extended period of time to find and negotiate the transfer of said items. It definitely isn't a matter of going into the magic shop with a visa platinum card and saying "I need a +5 vorpal, flaming sword and 5 Handy Haversacks wrapped and ready to go in the next half hour."
In the case of really rare stuff, the broker might only be able to provide hints as to where an item might be found. Example "The great Paladin Zerxes fell fighting the orc horde off in 3125, it is believed that he was buried with Durandal (his +5 Flaming Holy Sword). This gives the party plenty of impetus for a side quest, etc.
Consumables like potions and to a lesser extent wands are definitely exempt from this as I figure most hedge wizards and temple spend a large percentage of their time brewing potions and crafting wands to supplement their revenues. If your party is known to a NPC wizard or temple there is a good chance that they will be willing to sell to you given a substantial fee.
Overall this type of system ensures that there is substantial downtime as the PCs might have to negotiate commissioning of new armor from the dwarves of Kar Narva, etc. It gives the PCs the ability to trade, commission, purchase the items that they really want rather than make do with booty and it helps maintain a slower pace of adventure.
Expensive rare items will probably require the PCs to visit a major city and could take an extended period of time to find and negotiate the transfer of said items. It definitely isn't a matter of going into the magic shop with a visa platinum card and saying "I need a +5 vorpal, flaming sword and 5 Handy Haversacks wrapped and ready to go in the next half hour."
Of course not! Anyone who's anyone in Eberron knows you have to carry the black Eberron Express card. Don't leave home without it. ;)
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I am a little disappointed that in order to generate random items to populate my shops, I need to go back to tables in the SRD. I think the new mechanic is awesome, but it's sad they couldn't get all the necessary tables.That is actually one of my major complaints about the core book. I really wish they had included charts for random treasure and random magic item generation. Sure its in a book that we all own, but so is a lot of the other stuff. I am hoping that this is one of the items addressed in the game mastery guide.
+1
Are you looking for a "magic items shop" or "the magic items shop with the stuff you want to buy"?
Real world example here: I wanted to buy some trim for a cloak for an SCA event. However, I'm currently in a little mountain ski town in a bad economy and all the fabric stores are out of business except the one tiny shop where the proprietress does alterations and sells quilting supplies. She didn't have anything like what I'd need, but suggested a large shop in the nearest big city that might be better.
Then I had my sister check a shop while she was out of town. She looked and found that all they had was tiny packages of overpriced stuff I wouldn't want.
So I went to the event with the cloak untrimmed. The woman who usually comes to such fairs selling trim wasn't there, but the woman who sold embroidery had a small assortment, including one that worked perfectly.
Consider it the same way in a fantasy world with magic items, which are just another specialized trade good. A little town might have a shop with a couple quills and nonmagical scrolls that might be suitable for scroll making, but no inks of sufficient quality. An apothecary in a large city would be able to make scroll-grade inks, and might even have some on hand if there are enough wizards in his city to be regular clientelle. Scrolls, on the other hand, are either gotten through brokers (the apothecary might be one, since taking magic scrolls in trade for ink would be a reasonable bit of barter) or are gotten at places where magic users gather: witches sabbats, wizards convocations, etc.
There's also the matter of the black market. Rogues steal enough magic stuff that the local thieves guild likely has a vault of magical stuff which they'd be happy to sell for more easily liquid wealth such as coins or gems.
The pawnbrokers will likely also have some, as will the gem merchants, especially since gems are necessary components of so many spells, and if it takes a diamond to resurrect someone, then you'd expect that a lot of magical whatnot either gets traded directly to the gem merchants for the necessary gems or else gets hocked to the pawn brokers to get the cash to give the gem merchants for the gems.
In one game I ran, the "MageMart" replacement was a very sophisticated and public network of pawnbrokers all of whom had scry-proof lead-lined vaults and meticulous knowledge of who had what where, as well as very friendly relations with the thieves guild. However, this was taking place in a highly bureaucratic Chinese empire, so it's not an exact fit for every game.
I despise the notion of Magic Shops, and think that the 18th+ level Wizards who are always purported to run these shops, should have better things to do than man the till and make sure that PCs don't steal anything.
However there is a need for a magic item economy in most campaigns. PCs need to be able to sell excess treasure, and spend treasure on items they want. I suggest that many different sources can exist, although most of the ones that I can think of probably can't be found outside of Cities. These are examples from a 3.5 campaign that I ran:
Moneylenders should deal in magic items, they acquire them as collateral for loans that never got repaid, and may sometimes purchase them outright if it seems like a good deal to them. They would have extraordinary security on their vaults anyhow, in order to safeguard mundane treasures.
Mage Guilds should be a place where a guild member can barter or sell a magic item, and will also learn of others for sale. These items wouldn't be stored at the Mage Guild, but the 'networking' of buyer and seller would occur via the Mage Guild.
Religions should offer opportunites to buy and sell magic items for divine casters, same as Mage Guilds do for Arcane Casters.
Thieves Guilds should fence magic items with no questions asked (although you may not get what the item is worth). Guild members should also be able to buy magic items.
I lied. I do have a magic items shop in my campaign world.
I usually use it as an opportunity to revamp stuff from the Tome of Magic or come up with my own stuff.
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I always thought Ptolus handled it fairly well, which is similar to some of the suggestions here. They have a thriving delver economy so some of the local stores can sell used magic items, but they rarely have such things in stock due to the demand.
If the PCs want new magic items they have to contract with the Dreaming Apothecary, who maintain a presence in a place where delvers and magic-users frequent. In this situation they receive a token that allows a representative to enter the dreams of the purchaser. Once the deal is worked out the money is left in a place both parties agree and the item is left as well. Since it is contracted, the construction can take some time.
The Dreaming Apothecary maintains a chokehold on the magic item trade. No other business is allowed to sell magic items unless special deals have been made or the items are used and thus below the order's notice. Those who try to horn in on the Dreaming Apothecary's business find their luck turns very sour and their stores usually meet a terrible end.
A number of scrolls and used wondrous items (many with some weird quirks) can be found at Myraeth's Oddities. But that is far from the only thing he carries. His specialty is actually relics and other goods taken from the dungeons beneath the city. He does supply spell components and scribing materials as well. It should be said he has a special deal with the Dreaming Apothecary, so he can deal in some rather powerful goods if the opportunity presents itself.
Divine goods are not covered in this monopoly so the players still need to go hunting for such things. Some churches do supply some potions and scrolls, such as St. Gustav's Chapel in Delver's Square. But there are times when you might need to find an item is way outside the capabilities of the priest at Gustav's, which might take you to a temple of a god that you do not worship. For Lothianites (the official state religion) this might be hard. For others, it will likely just mean finding the right church.
I thought this perfectly modeled the assumptions present in the system without making it too easy to obtain items. This is not surprising since Ptolus was the "model world" for 3.5. Sure, you can still just buy nearly any item you would like, but it is going to take some time for that item to be finished.
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I lied. I do have a magic items shop in my campaign world.
I usually use it as an opportunity to revamp stuff from the Tome of Magic or come up with my own stuff.
That's interesting. I like that a lot. Quirky and off the wall, but a lot of fun.
I've always loved magic shops in video games, but found that pen and paper games are much more difficult to run in that manner. My players are all seasoned 3e veterans who are familiar with just about every item in the game, so they already have what they want in mind. I loved the oddball game where you'd come acroos a strnage shop and found items you never thought of, or weapons and armor with abilities you maybe hadn't considered, but keeping them stocked and such for a PnP game is just too much homework.
I've always wanted to convey the feeling of "oooh, they have one of these?" or "wow, that's a cool weapon. I want to save up and get it", but all to often characters above 4th level already have their signature weapon and only want to add enhancements to it. Nothing worse than statting out a full shop and have the players just go "Meh. Can you enchant this?(holds out weapon)"
On the other hand, I'm not real fond of players just being able to walk into town and buy whatever they want. It tends to make magical treasure trivial; nothing more than stuff to sell. Might as well all be art objects.
Shops that sell chicken tokens are a far cry from the Magic Marts which never go out of stock on Staves of the Magi and Holy Avenger swords, which I object to.
Forget the chicken tokens, I want an everlasting gobstopper +5.
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my biggest problem with magic item economies in the core rules is that the prices are completely artificial. it's like they decided it takes place in china, and the values are set by some magic item governmental body.
a used magic item is exactly as useful as a brand new one, but RAW, PCs can't sell a magic item for more than half price. basically i have to sell two +1 short swords to get one +1 club.
the way economics actually ends up working, i doubt it would end up being more than a 10% premium. ie, a +1 short sword and a couple of hundred gp should get you that +1 club, but pathfinder uses a completely ridiculous and arbitrary rule to prevent that.
I can understand this and I have always thought it odd. The economy is remarkably artificial if taken at face value, and that goes beyond the magic item economy.
There was a time where I tried hard to develop a new system. Eventually, though, I reverted back to the assumed system because it was simpler and the style of game I was running at the time didn't really need to focus on economies and business transactions. Currently, we do make an effort to get to know the shopkeepers in Ptolus (they are colorful in their own right) and my players love to barter.
Though, honestly, I much prefer the simplicity of the core system when dealing with these issues.
Forget the chicken tokens, I want an everlasting gobstopper +5.
Sounds like this month's letter will be "E". :)
I don't have "magic item shops". I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG. I assume that, if a player is buying a Handy Haversack, they probably found it at the Adventurer's Guild or from a bag shoppe. A +2 longsword was probably bought from a weaponsmith or the city guard.
Sounds right to me, and in line with the rules.
Though the way I do things is... rather odd, due to my houserules on wealth. In my games? Money doesn't really matter. Your 'wealth' is still there, but it can represent just about anything. Innate abilities, karma, connections, personal projects, as well as actual money.
So, if the dwarven smith 'buys' a +2 axe, it could well just be him making the thing himself, even if he technically can't make magic weapons, and then he pays full price from wealth. 'Buying' potions may in fact consist of receiving them for 'free' from a very friendly apothecary. 'Buying' a belt of giant's strength may mean I get to send a lucho libre wrestler after the player who challenges the player to a wrestling match over the belt. Or the belt may just be fully internal, without outside manifestation, because the beater is just that strong. Or they just go out and buy the items wherever it's most appropriate.
And if someone's looking for a really crazy toy like, say, a dragon egg? Then someone just dropped a small plot arc in my lap.
That's an interesting way to handle it. Cool.
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Mr. Fishy had a magic shoppe franchise named Crazy Achmed's Discount Weapon and Used Camel Emporium. Mr. Fishy was a new DM. Crazy Achmed was a joke NPC between Mr. Fishy his group. The shop was asked for in ever couple of towns so the franchise was born with Achmeds brothers and sons running camel dealerships and weapon shops. Achmed had a chance to be carrying a magical piece of gear.
Mr. Fishy also had Hodges a cranky old mage you "could" sell or cast scrolls for a price. Hodges was a later invention of a more serious nature.
Mean, mean things.
Wow! That gives me an idea for an interesting houserule. A roll of 100 on the item finding roll creates an encounter where the seller attempts to screw the buyer. I guess I'd have to a balance it with something positive on 001.
<-- Mr. Fishy fan.
Mr. Fishy also had Hodges a cranky old mage you "could" sell or cast scrolls for a price. Hodges was a later invention of a more serious nature.
For me, too, the letter store started out as kind of a joke when the PCs back in the late 90s insisted there had to be a place to buy magical goods and I said "Alright fine, but they only sell stuff that begins with the letter..." whatever it was. To my surprise, they loved it. It's been a staple ever since.
In the last campaign, the Letter Store also became more of a serious part of the campaing. They actually aligned themselves with the PCs in an effort to stop a holy war and they found out that there was actually only ONE letter store, but with a door that opened to several different cities. The proprietors allowed the PCs to use their shop for transportation.
<-- Mr. Fishy fan.
+ + + + + +
"Come on down to Crazy Achmed's Amazing Emporium of Total Bargain Madness! AAAAHH-HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HA!"
<-- Mr. Fishy fan.
Thank you Mr. Fishy is a fan also.
"Crazy Achmed's Discount Weapon Emporium, we got stuff to hit other stuff. We are also having a special on all three humped camels and this dead one, we need to make him move." (Actual used sales pitch in a game.)
don't think of it as magic mart, think of it like a marketplace. it's not all one store, it's a district of stores. maybe there are shady dealers, like the 16 year old minkaien girl that looks 12 and wears a black yukata, she may sell magic items, but try and haggle her prices, and she will outbluff you. heres a secret, (She's a ninja [rogue] and has mastered the art of deception in all forms. even taking on the appearance of an adolescent child.)
<-- Mr. Fishy fan.Thank you Mr. Fishy is a fan also.
"Crazy Achmed's Discount Weapon Emporium, we got stuff to hit other stuff. We are also having a special on all three humped camels and this dead one, we need to make him move." (Actual used sales pitch in a game.)
You're welcome! But is it considered stalking or admiration when I read daily Mr. Fishy's most recent posts to see what Mr. Fishy had to share with us today.
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I don't have "magic item shops". I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG. I assume that, if a player is buying a Handy Haversack, they probably found it at the Adventurer's Guild or from a bag shoppe. A +2 longsword was probably bought from a weaponsmith or the city guard.Sounds right to me, and in line with the rules.
Though the way I do things is... rather odd, due to my houserules on wealth. In my games? Money doesn't really matter. Your 'wealth' is still there, but it can represent just about anything. Innate abilities, karma, connections, personal projects, as well as actual money.
So, if the dwarven smith 'buys' a +2 axe, it could well just be him making the thing himself, even if he technically can't make magic weapons, and then he pays full price from wealth. 'Buying' potions may in fact consist of receiving them for 'free' from a very friendly apothecary. 'Buying' a belt of giant's strength may mean I get to send a lucho libre wrestler after the player who challenges the player to a wrestling match over the belt. Or the belt may just be fully internal, without outside manifestation, because the beater is just that strong. Or they just go out and buy the items wherever it's most appropriate.
And if someone's looking for a really crazy toy like, say, a dragon egg? Then someone just dropped a small plot arc in my lap.
I like the abstraction of this system. While you are using money as the resource the actual result is much more open to interpretation. In this situation money becomes more like a rating on what you can obtain than just a physical currency.
Am I looking at this the right way?
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This topic was derailing another thread so I started a new one.
I don't have "magic item shops". I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG. I assume that, if a player is buying a Handy Haversack, they probably found it at the Adventurer's Guild or from a bag shoppe. A +2 longsword was probably bought from a weaponsmith or the city guard.
I houseruled that the moment someone in the party fails their % chance, that item is not in the city and they must wait a period of time before the % chance increases a bit, to a maximum of 70%. How much it increases per week depends on the size of the city.
Cities with hospitals generally always have some curative potions, scrolls, and wands on hand for sale (best way to fund the hospital, actually).
I might use something like this for the Dreaming Apothecary. Make the roll and if you fail, that just means they can't make the item at this time. Perhaps they are short on supplies, or one of their crafters are out on sabbatical. I am sure the Dreaming Apothecary will be unlikely to reveal why they can't make it, but it would be a very nice way to model the occasional "I'm sorry, we can't do that right now. Come back in a few weeks and we can see what we can do."
Of course, with divine items I can abstract it or be more specific as needed.
So what is your rate of increase versus community size?
Mr. Fishy is a ball of teeth, stalk with caution.
I read daily Mr. Fishy's most recent posts to see what Mr. Fishy had to share with us today.
Daily hmm, Mr. Fishy ego grew three times that day. Still smaller that Loopy's.
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I do, however, use the % chance based on GP limit presented in the PRPG.I do something very similar using a d20 system. Here's the chart I made for my games: LINK
Nice chart. I like the idea that obtaining the item might have some dependency on the PCs and their skills/reputation/etc.
So what is your rate of increase versus community size?
Arbitrary. In my mind it's something like +10% per week for cities, steadily less for other places. I'm a little more lenient when its something that region might have lots of. For example, the cities nearer to the tundra would likely have a 20% replenishment on Boots of the Winterlands.
I should probably write this stuff down.