Ran across a question from my last gaming session.
The Rogue was caught by surprise (missed a perception role) and was in the blast area of a dragon breathing on the group. My call as the GM was that Evasion and Improved Evasion do not function if the character is unaware of the attack (based in part on the fact that sleeping rogues do not the benefit from evasion -helpless condition).
I was wondering if anyone has seen an official ruling on this in previous editions, or if one of the powers that be at Paizo would care to wade in.
I don't know of any condition or situation that affects how Evasion or Improved Evasion function. The Helpless condition has a lot of bad stuff for a character, but it doesn't effect that.
Sorry to say it, but I think you made the wrong call.
Well you aren't helpless, or even flat footed in a case like that.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible.
If you can react to being shot at with a bow from an unseen opponent, I don't think dodging through an unseen breath attack is too different.
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Being flat-footed (unaware of an attack) is markedly different from being helpless (unable to avoid an attack). The rogue, having failed his Perception check, was caught by surprise, and is thus only flat-footed, which means evasion works normally.
Edit:
Scipion del Ferro has it right, I forgot about Uncanny Dodge. (Assuming, of course, the rogue in question is at least 4th level.)
I don't know of any condition or situation that affects how Evasion or Improved Evasion function. The Helpless condition has a lot of bad stuff for a character, but it doesn't effect that.
Sorry to say it, but I think you made the wrong call.
Edit: OK, I see it specifies Helpless in the Evasion description,. I was looking at the Helpless condition effects. But I still don't agree that surprised rogues should lose benefit of Evasion. Surprised makes you flatfooted, until you get Uncanny Dodge, but doesn't effect saves.
The Rogue was caught by surprise (missed a perception role) and was in the blast area of a dragon breathing on the group. My call as the GM was that Evasion and Improved Evasion do not function if the character is unaware of the attack (based in part on the fact that sleeping rogues do not the benefit from evasion -helpless condition).
There's a difference between surprised and helpless. (I'm intentionally avoiding the use of flat footed since if the rogue is 4th level or higher, she won't be flat footed.) Surprised is essentially a dex of 10, while helpless is a dex of 0. Evasion explicitly says that the rogue must be helpless to not benefit from it.
This is similar to the restriction on coup de grace. Assuming the dragon had enough actions, would you allow it to coup de grace a PC who failed his perception check? If not, the rogue should get the benefit of evasion.
(If you would allow the coup de grace above, it's actually fairly feasible. In the surprise round, you use a standard action to start a full round action. In the first round, you use a standard action to finish a full round action. If the victim loses initiative, nothing has changed between the surprise and first rounds, so the victim should be a valid target.)
Edit: I only saw your response after I posted the above.
Flatfooted only denies your dex bonus to AC. It doesn't effect saves, so by that logic, a flat-footed (but not helpless) rogue should still get the benefit of evasion.
Flat-footed (or not acted yet) is not the same as being helpless. This is true in all 3.0+ D&D versions and PF.
I believe that I understand the difference between flat-footed, surprised and helpless. My issue came from the description of the rogue class ability.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Ref lex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
Please note the bolded section. How can an unaware individual (rogue, ranger, individual wearing a ring of evasion) act with great agility?
My thoughts turned to that and to helpless, as would not an oblivious individual (not acting in the surprise round) be similar to a sleeping or unconscious individual?
To me, Uncanny Dodge does not come into play on a ranged or area effect, as it's description is all about reacting to melee attacks. Have I missed something on that?
To me, Uncanny Dodge does not come into play on a ranged or area effect, as it's description is all about reacting to melee attacks. Have I missed something on that?
Actually the description doesn't say anything about melee attacks. It works on everything. It's Spidey Sense.
How can an unaware individual (rogue, ranger, individual wearing a ring of evasion) act with great agility?
Sounds like an extraordinary ability!
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There are very, VERY few ways to deny a character a Saving throw. Being suprised doesn't mean you aren't just lucky as all get out. Reflex saves are based on a lot of luck, even tied to a tree a character can save for half damage if the spell or ability allows for it. Now unless you were bound, magically held, paralyzed by poison, or buried up to your neck in mud you still gain the effects of Evasion when caught unaware.
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Right you are KoV.
Even a helpless character gets a reflex save, albeit at some significant penalties.
However, one sure fire way to deny a character a saving through is to make it dead. Then it is an unattended non-magical object!
Please note that I did not deny a saving throw, I denied the evasion class ability.
Scipion del ferro, you are right, Uncanny Dodge does not state it applies only to melee attack. It is that I have always associated it with physical combat, not area effect spells or abilities. Which is why I do not feel that it applies to the question of whether Evasion requires knowledge of the possible area attack.
Fatespinner, I am aware that there is a large difference between surprised and helpless. The reason that I brought up helpless is because it is referenced in the evasion class skill and I was using it to help me decided on what kind of condition would deny evasion. I did not state or think that the rogue was helpless.
Meabolex, :), I was hoping for something a little more elaborated on.
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The rogue isn't helpless unless he is bound up or held or something that totally restricts all movement. Flatfooted does not cause you to be helpless. He also has Uncanny Dodge that allows him to respond to danger before his senses would normally allow it.
A helpless opponent is also flatfooted but a flatfooted opponent is not helpless.
You screwed the dude. A flatfooted rogue gets Evasion, a helpless one does not. He was not helpless: "A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy"
Flatfooted is not that.
EDIT-also by the RAW he can't be flatfooted. Surprised yes, but that doesn't mean helpless.
Relevant rules from the PRD with some key points bolded---
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue [/b]can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and [b]rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed.
Thanks for the responses.
While I am not convined that Evasion should work while the individual in unaware, I can take a hint (as I seem to be the only one with that opinion :)) and will change my interpretation to match the general consensus.
For the record, the Rogue made his save, the damage did not have any negative repurcussions for the fight (well, besides having to make sure that he was withing 30' of the cleric) and an evil look at the GM from the Rogue's player.
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Please note that I did not deny a saving throw, I denied the evasion class ability.
This is what I meant by my "always on" statement. If he is able to make a saving throw, he is able to benefit from Evasion. There is never a situation in which a character could make a Reflex saving throw and NOT gain the benefits of this ability. A helpless character cannot make Reflex saving throws, ergo he cannot benefit from Evasion. Sorry if my referencing was unclear.
A helpless player does indeed get to make a reflex saving throw, although he has to treat his Dexterity as being 0 (-5 Dex mod). Nothing in the description of the helpless condition says he doesn't get one, he just doesn't get any dexterity to it.
If an inanimate, unattended magical object can make Reflex saving throws, then immobile and helpless creatures can to.