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An interesting behind-the-scenes take from one of the SWS folks:
Here's a never-before-revealed bit of behind-the-scenes information on the development of Saga Edition. During development, we had a handful of mechanics handed down from on high -- things like the "second wind" mechanic. They didn't tell us where it came from or what it was for -- they just said, "Here, play with this and see what it does."
Now, I can put two and two together, so I realized exactly where these things came from: WotC was working on D&D 4th edition, and they were sending a handful of concepts out for a test drive to see what works. (We were doing design, development, and editing throughout 2006, but WotC didn't breathe a word about 4E until GenCon in August 2007.)
Given that I realized that these rules were actually meant for D&D, I made a conscious effort during development to try to make it at least somewhat compatible with settings other than Star Wars (e.g. heroic fantasy and "modern" settings, at minimum). When I would play with numbers on a spreadsheet -- oh, I had so many spreadsheets! -- I would turn a mechanic around and say, "Alright, now what if I'm using a longsword instead of a blaster?" When I was writing the rules for the damage threshold and what happens when you're reduced to 0 hit points, I actually looked up hospital statistics on gunshot wounds to make sure I had the right level of lethality for a typical handgun (2d6 damage) when used on a 1st-level nonheroic (e.g. a civilian with 1-4 hit points) but still not too lethal for a typical blaster pistol (3d6) vs. a 1st-level scoundrel (18 hp + Con mod).
Apparently, though, those little things add up. When 4E came out, I observed something interesting: There were obviously plenty of people who liked 3.5 and didn't like the new system, but it turned out that there were a significant number of Saga players who had really hoped that 4E would be a lot closer to the Saga rules. A significant number went so far as to start making up house rules to play a Saga-based version of D&D in lieu of either 3.5 or 4E.
Obviously, Saga has its problems, and there are a lot of things I would have done more like 4E if I'd thought of them -- but it's really interesting that we seem to have accidentally created a system that some players preferred for a completely different genre.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about that, and the only thing I could come up with is that I'd thought about things like longswords and fireballs in addition to thinking about blasters and lightsabers. That simple change in attitude made the system more flexible, and that flexibility apparently allowed some players to stick with a familiar system they liked (making changes as necessary to fit the genre) rather than to switch to a very different and unfamiliar system that was tailor-made for that genre.
Full post here. I wonder if the Paizo staff went through something similar with Pathfinder RPG.
"I actually looked up hospital statistics on gunshot wounds…"
Lost me. For me, and this is just my opinion, I recognize others have a very different and valid opinion, this is a flawed design paradigm. If you are making a Star Wars game, you should design it to resemble Star Wars, not real life.
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I'd totally buy Saga edition fantasy rules. :P
As for that post, I've read stuff like that posted before regarding Saga development. More so about Saga stuff being looked at while they were making 4e. But then again, it came out of Bill Slavicsek's mouth, who I have no tolerance for anymore and don't pay any attention to.
I'd totally buy Saga edition fantasy rules. :P
As for that post, I've read stuff like that posted before regarding Saga development. More so about Saga stuff being looked at while they were making 4e. But then again, it came out of Bill Slavicsek's mouth, who I have no tolerance for anymore and don't pay any attention to.
I read some reviews that got me interested and that was before I started into 4th edition and was very impressed. The Force Powers are more akin to 4th edition encounter powers which stops Jedi from doing everything.
They fixed a few broken rules like Jedi being able to rebound blaster bolts back at enemies(previous editions the attack needed to miss by 2 or so which meant it hardly ever happened because the Jedi's Defence was so high).Definitely worth a look if you have a group who'll play a STAR WARS campaign. They've also released some excellent campaign books, Knights Of The Old Republic, Legacy, Clone Wars(if you liked the backdrop of episodes 1,2,3).
Only thing they've not done yet is start doing an adventure mag like Dungeon which is annoying.
Obviously, Saga has its problems, and there are a lot of things I would have done more like 4E if I'd thought of them
I just gotta say, I'm GLAD he didn't. I don't like how 4E works.
As for using Saga Edition rules for other genres, I could totally see using them for a modern or future setting, but I'd have to see how people do the fantasy thing, just doesn't seem right to me.
wizards had a magazine for d20, Star Wars Insider.
it was pretty good, although i never purchased many of them, i wasnt playing star wars at the time.
i like powers better than talents. i would like to see a gi joe game with powers instead of talents.
i would like to see a gi joe game with powers instead of talents.
You could do that with Hero, Mutants & Masterminds and/or Savage Worlds. Hell, Mutants & Masterminds' Agents of Freedom practically screams G.I. Joe.
wizards had a magazine for d20, Star Wars Insider.
it was pretty good, although i never purchased many of them, i wasnt playing star wars at the time.
i like powers better than talents. i would like to see a gi joe game with powers instead of talents.
It's funny really but I like Powers system in 4E but I prefer the Talents and feats in SWSE for that setting. I suppose however if SWSE was changed to be more in line with 4E with the Powers I'd probably get to like it, not sure though.
I'd totally buy Saga edition fantasy rules. :PWell, there are a few systems out there. I own this one, for instance.
Obviously, they can't come straight out and say that they have taken the Saga Rules for Star Wars and given them a fantasy makeover.
I'm curious, have you run a campaign using this system and did you find the Mages Magical Attacks an issue?
Did you re-write all the creatures from Monstrous Manual to fit the setting or could you run them straight from the book without conversion?
While SWSE does have it's problems, quite frankly, one of my issues with 4e is that it wasn't ENOUGH like Saga, and - for me at least - SWSE IS Star Wars: the Tabletop Game
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While SWSE does have it's problems, quite frankly, one of my issues with 4e is that it wasn't ENOUGH like Saga, and - for me at least - SWSE IS Star Wars: the Tabletop Game
Agreed, I really like SWSE. It was the closest to a truly customizable game d20 has provided me with so far (at least in terms of characters). I've used it for Star Wars campaigns, generic futuristic campaigns, and games set in the wild west/victorian era.
I don't know if I'd use it for a fantasy setting, except maybe something along the lines of Arthurian romances or a-thousand-and-one-nights type games. Something more real world than most established RPG worlds.
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I've been GM'ing a Star wars game for my regular group for a while now and there are definitely things about saga that i like. Oh, but there are some things I don't like. All-in-all, I think it's a pretty good ruleset.
I was in the camp that hoped D&D4E would look like SWSE. Disappointing actually.
-Skeld
While SWSE does have it's problems, quite frankly, one of my issues with 4e is that it wasn't ENOUGH like Saga, and - for me at least - SWSE IS Star Wars: the Tabletop Game
Have you ever tried West End Games D6 Star Wars game from the 90's?
While SWSE does have it's problems, quite frankly, one of my issues with 4e is that it wasn't ENOUGH like Saga, and - for me at least - SWSE IS Star Wars: the Tabletop GameHave you ever tried West End Games D6 Star Wars game from the 90's?
I ran the old West End Star Wars over two or could have been three editions quite a few years back and the game started out well but eventually Jedi became IMPOSSIBLE to challenge and bulldosed the game every time.
For it's time it was a good game but for a long term campaign...I'd never run it again. I still have about 20 suppliment books and a few adventure books from the old West End SW system at home which I use for reference but I'd never run the system again.Like I said further up the thread I had been given the impression that 4Ed would be like SWSE mechanically. I read some very good reviews of SWSE and bought the the main book to see whether I was going to get 4th edition books.
Whilst I was a little disappointed that 4th Ed wasn't as much like SWSE as I had been expecting, I've been running and playing 4th ed for about 6 months or more and do enjoy it as is.
The general mechanic is the same as D20 Modern but using defences for all things rather than saving throws. Limited Force Power usage (which is much better) and better multiclassing than previous editions.
While SWSE does have it's problems, quite frankly, one of my issues with 4e is that it wasn't ENOUGH like Saga, and - for me at least - SWSE IS Star Wars: the Tabletop GameHave you ever tried West End Games D6 Star Wars game from the 90's?I ran the old West End Star Wars over two or could have been three editions quite a few years back and the game started out well but eventually Jedi became IMPOSSIBLE to challenge and bulldosed the game every time.
For it's time it was a good game but for a long term campaign...I'd never run it again. I still have about 20 suppliment books and a few adventure books from the old West End SW system at home which I use for reference but I'd never run the system again.Like I said further up the thread I had been given the impression that 4Ed would be like SWSE mechanically. I read some very good reviews of SWSE and bought the the main book to see whether I was going to get 4th edition books.
Whilst I was a little disappointed that 4th Ed wasn't as much like SWSE as I had been expecting, I've been running and playing 4th ed for about 6 months or more and do enjoy it as is.The general mechanic is the same as D20 Modern but using defences for all things rather than saving throws. Limited Force Power usage (which is much better) and better multiclassing than previous editions.
I already know how SWSE works. Honestly I don't see how you wouldn't be able to challenge the jedi characters, as beyond a certain point mundane threats are almost nothing to a prepared jedi, and by that point they should be facing other force users anyway. Now they definitely outstripped other characters in combat, and that could cause some serious party imbalance. Luckily D6 SW wasn't a game based on roles (unlike any d20 game), so I never saw that as a big issue. The jedi goes to do his Jedi stuff, leaving the other characters to go deal with the smugglers or soldiers or whatever other threat.
Personally, I think the main thing is I have a really hard time accepting a level based Star Wars game, when the stories have always been about epic stories where the hero stands against something bigger then himself (i.e. much to high level in a level based game for the character to have ANY chance).
I like SWSE, but to me, D6 is the only one that has ever gotten it right when it comes to a system that actually makes game play FEEL like Star Wars.
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I'd totally buy Saga edition fantasy rules. :PWell, there are a few systems out there. I own this one, for instance.
Obviously, they can't come straight out and say that they have taken the Saga Rules for Star Wars and given them a fantasy makeover.
I'm curious, have you run a campaign using this system and did you find the Mages Magical Attacks an issue?
Did you re-write all the creatures from Monstrous Manual to fit the setting or could you run them straight from the book without conversion?
Never had a chance to try it out, unfortunately.
Never had a chance to try it out, unfortunately.I'd totally buy Saga edition fantasy rules. :PWell, there are a few systems out there. I own this one, for instance.
Obviously, they can't come straight out and say that they have taken the Saga Rules for Star Wars and given them a fantasy makeover.
I'm curious, have you run a campaign using this system and did you find the Mages Magical Attacks an issue?
Did you re-write all the creatures from Monstrous Manual to fit the setting or could you run them straight from the book without conversion?
Shame, me neither. I was hoping for a bit of a review because most of it was very, very good and more in line with SWSE than 4th Ed which could have been good but I looked at a couple of the mechanics and saw some issues. Just wondered how it played.
I was definitely in the "hoping 4e was more like SWSE" camp. I had heard before 4e came out that Saga was indeed a "test run" for those rules. This had almost won me over, being I was pretty anti-4e in the beginning. I got Saga as soon as it came out, read it over, and was really excited for 4e, for about a day. Got a hold of 4e, and, well, not so excited.
I loved the stripped down, build-it-yourself character creation in Saga, and was very hoping 4e would at least be similar. I was thinking maybe there only being like, 4 or 5 main classes, and all the crazy variants and PrC's would be talent trees. Nope. They did a 180 and went the whole other way.... I've always viewed multiclassing as just using different building blocks(class levels) to achieve a character concept, and SWSE followed this idea very well. That was honestly one of my biggest disappointments in 4e; the rigidity of class progression and their version of "multiclassing" compared to SWSE.
Yes, I realize what forum this is in. I am not bashing. Just expressing my sentiment of Saga as a fore-runner to 4e.
I was definitely in the "hoping 4e was more like SWSE" camp. I had heard before 4e came out that Saga was indeed a "test run" for those rules. This had almost won me over, being I was pretty anti-4e in the beginning. I got Saga as soon as it came out, read it over, and was really excited for 4e, for about a day. Got a hold of 4e, and, well, not so excited.
Yes, I realize what forum this is in. I am not bashing. Just expressing my sentiment of Saga as a fore-runner to 4e.
I was origionally hoping for 4E to be more like SWSE but since getting into 4E(playing and DMing) I am happy with the way they went with it. I can't see a problem personally with your opinion, it's honest and not inflamatory.
Just need to find a group to run SWSE with!!! The group I'm with are excellent roleplayers but if I throw in another system they will probably get confused( we did start out with 3.5 games, then Monte Cooks Experimental Might, then True 20), they liked them all but prefer 4th Ed over the others.