My DM and I are having a rules interpretation issue regarding Readied Actions, and he would like an official answer about the situation. His exact words were "need a piazo guy not some forum monkey". Is there a place on the paizo site to submit questions for official rulings? If so, can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance.
|
My DM and I are having a rules interpretation issue regarding Readied Actions, and he would like an official answer about the situation. His exact words were "need a piazo guy not some forum monkey". Is there a place on the paizo site to submit questions for official rulings? If so, can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance.
but some of these forum monkeys know thier rules. And dont worry, someone official from Paizo will be coming along. They always do.
Is there a place on the paizo site to submit questions for official rulings?
Not reliably.
My DM and I are having a rules interpretation issue regarding Readied Actions, and he would like an official answer about the situation. His exact words were "need a piazo guy not some forum monkey". Is there a place on the paizo site to submit questions for official rulings? If so, can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance.
Course, requesting an answer to a rules question either official or from a forum monkey would be a lot easier if the question had actually be asked. Otherwise your likely to just get the exact thing thats in the book.
What's the question?
Here is the situation in question. It's the ruggedly handsome monk, a captivated rogue, and a couple of evil bandit harpies of doom.
Initiative is:
rogue
harpies
monk
The rogue is standing in a clearing… grinning, drooling, in general being captivated by the apparently irresistible harpies, who are roughly 60 feet away and airborne (out of reach). The monk is 35 feet away from the rogue.
On the rogue's turn, he sits there… drooling.
On the harpies' turn, they swoop in (fly-by attack) and brain the rogue. Who remains alive and is now looking both happy, drool-y, and dumbfounded.
On the dashing monk's turn, he decides, "hey, i need to protect my dim-witted friend," and decides to get over there (move over to the square next to the rogue and between the rogue and the airborne harpies), then wait for the first harpy to get close enough and take a swing at them (ready a standard action to attack the first harpy that gets into a threatened square). So monk's turn is finished for now.
TOP OF INITIATIVE
Rogue continues to drool.
Harpies swing in for another fly-by. Once the first harpy comes into reach, WHAM!, the monk uses his readied action to smash that one in the face. The monk's initiative is now just before that harpy, and the other harpy acts as normal.
_______
Is this a correct use of the readied action rules? My DM believes i'm breaking the rules somehow, and is telling me that i'm milking the system to get more actions. I believe i'm using the Readied Action rules correctly, and if anything, i'm losing a movement action to get to attack the harpy.
What say ye, oh Great ones of the boards (and Editor-guy)?
Also, can you tell which character i'm running?
You (generic you) shouldn't expect Paizo staff to make rulings on things posted in the message boards. That's what the books and FAQ are for. Holding out for an employee's response as the "clincher" for an argument is sort of, I dunno, schoolyard?
Also, readied actions don't change your initiative number (delaying does).
You (generic you) shouldn't expect Paizo staff to make rulings on things posted in the message boards. That's what the books and FAQ are for. Holding out for an employee's response as the "clincher" for an argument is sort of, I dunno, schoolyard?
This was really my DM's request, honestly. when this situation came up, it didn't play out this way because he disallowed me doing it. His ruling stood during the game and I asked him about it this morning. And now you're current on the saga of the rules discussion.
Should i take your answer as a "figure it out yourself?" I can understand you guys not wanting to get in the middle of every table disagreement, but i was hoping someone (who my DM will recognize as any kind of authority) would shed some light on the subject.
also, on page 203 under "Initiative Consequences of Readying" it says:
If you take your readied
action in the next round, before your regular turn comes
up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the
order of battle, and you do not get your regular action
that round.
This would mean that my new initiative spot would in fact change to before the harpies, and that's my full action for this round, right?
Also, readied actions don't change your initiative number (delaying does).
Uh....check again.
Yar!
THIS link leads to the pathfinder rule in question, which is essentially a copy-paste of the rules as printed in the pathfinder core rulebook, page 203 in this instance.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Just to be clear, i wasn't just asking if the initiative change was correct, but the over-all implementation of that rule-set?
Does anyone see any flaws with how this plays out? is it correctly implemented here? If not, why?
I really do appreciate the help.
|
also, on page 203 under "Initiative Consequences of Readying" it says:
If you take your readied
action in the next round, before your regular turn comes
up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the
order of battle, and you do not get your regular action
that round.This would mean that my new initiative spot would in fact change to before the harpies, and that's my full action for this round, right?
I read your line of thought as being correct and consistent with other conversations regarding this topic.
IMHO this is one of the clearest chunks of text in the book, I think the ready/delay actions language is very clear.
Were you not capable of having a "ready" action and waiting into the following round, the very lines you quote would be superfluous. This is particularly emphasized by the line "if you take your readied action in the next round"...which pretty much says it all. It clearly indicates that not only is it possible but that there are clear conditions and effects of so doing...
Your monk, amazing in his glory, thwaps the harpie. His new initiative is Post-Rogue, Pre-Harpy, his readied action takes the place of his action this round and the initiative continues. Notice, that as per RAW you don't get "extra actions" you just get to better timing with the one you were holding on to. I am really unsure as to why your DM says this is wrong.
Just to be clear, i wasn't just asking if the initiative change was correct, but the over-all implementation of that rule-set?
It looks correct to me (assuming the monk only made a single move action to move over to the rogue).
Which part did your DM object to?
|
|
also, on page 203 under "Initiative Consequences of Readying" it says:
If you take your readied
action in the next round, before your regular turn comes
up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the
order of battle, and you do not get your regular action
that round.This would mean that my new initiative spot would in fact change to before the harpies, and that's my full action for this round, right?
I read your line of thought as being correct and consistent with other conversations regarding this topic.
IMHO this is one of the clearest chunks of text in the book, I think the ready/delay actions language is very clear.
Were you not capable of having a "ready" action and waiting into the following round, the very lines you quote would be superfluous. This is particularly emphasized by the line "if you take your readied action in the next round"...which pretty much says it all. It clearly indicates that not only is it possible but that there are clear conditions and effects of so doing...
Your monk, amazing in his glory, thwaps the harpie. His new initiative is Post-Rogue, Pre-Harpy, his readied action takes the place of his action this round and the initiative continues. Notice, that as per RAW you don't get "extra actions" you just get to better time the one you were holding on to. I am really unsure as to why your DM says this is wrong.
This is why, on a readied action, you state the exact condition upon which your readied action could be taken.
That way you can take your readied action, even if it goes into the next round (before your turn) and still have your action(s) for the new round available at your regular initiative.|
|
This is why, on a readied action, you state the exact condition upon which your readied action could be taken.
That way you can take your readied action, even if it goes into the next round (before your turn) and still have your action(s) for the new round available at your regular initiative.
Emphasis mine.
I read differently, did I miss something?
Per the PFSRD:
If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
It makes it so the economy of actions in a round is preserved right?
Yar?
Pirate wrote:
Aarrr.Yaaarrrr!
AAARRRRRR!!!!!
Anywho, I did a quick search, and could only find FAQ's at that website. All the other FAQ's here are about the products themselves and so forth. There is also this site, which is more official, contains up to date erattas, but still, no FAQs.
*shrugs*
This is why, on a readied action, you state the exact condition upon which your readied action could be taken.
That way you can take your readied action, even if it goes into the next round (before your turn) and still have your action(s) for the new round available at your regular initiative.Emphasis mine.
I read differently, did I miss something?
Per the PFSRD:
If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
It makes it so the economy of actions in a round is preserved right?
I agree with Pirate. As my readied action happens in the next round but above my original initiative, once i take my readied action, my full action is complete for the new and current round as well. As in my original scenario, once the monk uses his readied attack on the harpy, and his initiatve is reset, the monk is done for the new round, and he does not get another set of actions after the harpies complete their actions.
Creative Director
|
There is no Pathfinder FAQ yet. That's on our to-do list. Other things are still higher on the to-do list (like: Get the product line back on schedule, or work on the Advanced Player's Guide), but some day we'd like to get a FAQ up and online.
Anyway... readying an action more or less works exactly the way your monk thinks it does. It's one of the few ways a melee character can actually do his thing against Flyby Attack.
It sounds like your DM made a ruling that conflicts with the rules as written. You probably should have been allowed to do what you suggested in your post.
I would point out that the harpies might still be able to attack, while staying out of your reach.
I would also bring up the human aspect of DM'ing a game where that can sometimes feel like Players vs DM rather then Characters vs Monsters. Initiative means more to players then it does a DM. In a complex battle, it is easy to accidentally skip someone. If that 'someone' is an NPC, it probably won't get noticed, if it is a player, it can make a big difference.
Delaying and Readied Actions are usually done by the player rather then the DM. Carefully done, it can often feel like the players are getting to act more then they should. For example, lets say you were fighting an orc... Your monk readies a disarm attack vs anyone within reach. Orc charges, you disarm the orc. Next round comes along and you go before the orc, (who never got to attack, or even draw a weapon) and you full attack his ass. It was great tactics on the players part, and worked really well, but to the DM it felt like you acted twice, and the orc never did anything (except a single move action).
Your DM probably ruled incorrectly, but I can see why they felt that way in the confusion of combat.
PS - As a DM, I have been known to be a serious bastard with my readied actions. Readied Grease spell for the fighters sword to interrupt his attack, readied damage spell vs the wizards casting a spell, etc. What comes around goes around!
urgh!?
That way you can take your readied action, even if it goes into the next round (before your turn) and still have your action(s) for the new round available at your regular initiative.
Wait, what? No. You ready your action in round x, and it has a trigger. In round y, the trigger is triggered and you perform the action you readied. That become your action for round y, your initiaative changes to always occur at that point, and you get no more actions that round. You act on the new initiative in round z.
(sorry, that was an ambiguous way to put it)
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that
Also ... *points to James Jacobs* ... what he said.
ignore this post
It sounds like your DM made a ruling that conflicts with the rules as written. You probably should have been allowed to do what you suggested in your post.
I would point out that the harpies might still be able to attack, while staying out of your reach.
I would also bring up the human aspect of DM'ing a game where that can sometimes feel like Players vs DM rather then Characters vs Monsters. Initiative means more to players then it does a DM. In a complex battle, it is easy to accidentally skip someone. If that 'someone' is an NPC, it probably won't get noticed, if it is a player, it can make a big difference.
Delaying and Readied Actions are usually done by the player rather then the DM. Carefully done, it can often feel like the players are getting to act more then they should. For example, lets say you were fighting an orc... Your monk readies a disarm attack vs anyone within reach. Orc charges, you disarm the orc. Next round comes along and you go before the orc, (who never got to attack, or even draw a weapon) and you full attack his ass. It was great tactics on the players part, and worked really well, but to the DM it felt like you acted twice, and the orc never did anything (except a single move action).
Your DM probably ruled incorrectly, but I can see why they felt that way in the confusion of combat.
PS - As a DM, I have been known to be a serious bastard with my readied actions. Readied Grease spell for the fighters sword to interrupt his attack, readied damage spell vs the wizards casting a spell, etc. What comes around goes around!
Well, i really wasn't trying to take advantage of a situation, only protect my rogue buddy. And I'm aware that DM's are human, and like I said, i didn't' make a big deal out of it at the table.. i chose another course of actions. I just want to make sure i understand what is intended to be possible, and hopefully have my DM and I come to an agreement based on that.
And like i said earlier, if he decides in the end that this is not how the game at his table will be played, i will abide by it.
*blink*
Wow, am I remembering a rule from 3.0? Weird. My apologies!
(It's hard for us people who worked at Wizards during the development of 3e. Like you, we remember 3.0, and 3.5, and Pathfinder, but we also have half-discarded memories of various internal playtest versions of 3.0 that never got outside the company. Like the earliest one where you rolled a d6 for initiative and a character's modifiers were fast, medium, or slow....)
Ok, big thanks to everyone. And that goes double for James and Sean. It really does say something great about the Paizo team that they will jump in and help their fans out when they can.
I'll chat with my DM, and yes, i will be respectful of the fact that it is his game. If he still decides that readying is a no-go, then i will abide.
I do appreciate all the input, though.
Well, i really wasn't trying to take advantage of a situation, only protect my rogue buddy.
I would say that readying is taking advantage of good tactics, not exploiting the rules. It is a risk that can pay off, or not depending on the actions of the opponents. As a monk, you rely on good tactics more then other classes, don't hesitate to play smart!
While we are on the subject of readying:
Can you tell if an opponent is readying? For example, is it obvious that someone is bracing a spear vs a charging opponent? Are some readied actions obvious, while others are just standing there looking like you might have to go to the bathroom?
As I was a dumbhead on my earlier post, I'll weigh in on the meat of your actual question!
Is this a correct use of the readied action rules?
Yes it is.
My DM believes i'm breaking the rules somehow, and is telling me that i'm milking the system to get more actions.
You're not breaking the rules or getting any extra actions. In effect, you took half your action in the first round on your turn, the other half of your action just before the harpy's turn on the second round. You won't get another action in the second round, and your next turn will be just before the harpy in the third round. Overall you're actually taking FEWER actions than the harpies because you took only half your actions in R1, then completed your other half in R2 (which moves your initiative up in R2, preventing you from getting a second set of actions at your old initiative in R2).
While we are on the subject of readying:
Can you tell if an opponent is readying? For example, is it obvious that someone is bracing a spear vs a charging opponent? Are some readied actions obvious, while others are just standing there looking like you might have to go to the bathroom?
I feel some should be obvious and some not so obvious. And that's what the Bluff skill is for. :)
EDIT: ninja'd.
I do think it's ironic that some people could think readying gives you MORE actions, when like Sean points out, it actually gives you LESS actions if you started out at a slower Init and your action triggers the next round (which should generally be a 1/encounter loss of actions unless you're being really fancy).
For the example of readying a disarm against a charging Orc, you're basically putting the Orc in the same position as the OP vs. the Harpies: taking away their opportunity to do something USEFUL (or optimal) with their action, not taking away their actions themself. Said Orc should still be able to swing a spiked gauntlet punch, or try a Trip or Grapple maneuver... At minimum they can always use a Full Defense action.
*blink*
Wow, am I remembering a rule from 3.0? Weird. My apologies!
(It's hard for us people who worked at Wizards during the development of 3e. Like you, we remember 3.0, and 3.5, and Pathfinder, but we also have half-discarded memories of various internal playtest versions of 3.0 that never got outside the company. Like the earliest one where you rolled a d6 for initiative and a character's modifiers were fast, medium, or slow....)
I know how you feel, I have similar problems with my group, over more then a decade gaming we have played 10 d20 based systems (3.0,3.5, pathfinder, star wars rpg, star wars saga edition, A game of thrones d20, mutans and masterminds 1st edition and second edition, d20 mondern, and 4E). Add in various incarnations of homebrew rules that were only ever half written down, or abandoned even by their creator, and you have a mess even the best rules lawyers in the group get messed up on. Cant remember how many times i've been corrected on a rule and I say, wait what? well where did i get that idea from? and someone points out it was from a different system.
Its why i always check the srd before responding to a post or an email about my game. I am just too prone to mistakes nowadays.
You basically 'wasted' a round of actions to move and set up a readied attack for the next round. As DM, I would have no problem allowing this.
...That's what the books and FAQ are for.
Where is that FAQ? I'd like to add it to d20pfsrd.com! Or at least compare it to the one we have to make sure ours is up to date/correct etc.
There is no Pathfinder FAQ yet. That's on our to-do list. Other things are still higher on the to-do list (like: Get the product line back on schedule, or work on the Advanced Player's Guide), but some day we'd like to get a FAQ up and online.
I believe Sean was channeling the spirit of 3.0/3.5 when he wrote that.
|
*blink*
Wow, am I remembering a rule from 3.0? Weird. My apologies!
(It's hard for us people who worked at Wizards during the development of 3e. Like you, we remember 3.0, and 3.5, and Pathfinder, but we also have half-discarded memories of various internal playtest versions of 3.0 that never got outside the company. Like the earliest one where you rolled a d6 for initiative and a character's modifiers were fast, medium, or slow....)
It's okay we understand. Good lord the rules you have seen!
I DO miss rolling initiative every round though *sniff sniff* that made combat unpredictable...
*blink*
Wow, am I remembering a rule from 3.0?
No. Even in 3.0, readying changes your initiative. The rules say so quite explicitly. Of course, I have no idea about early 3.0 testing...
I'm sorry, Sean, but this is a moment I will treasure for the rest of my life. I'm one of the most absent-minded GMs you'll ever meet, and when I run 3.X, hardly a play session ever goes by when I don't make at least one huge mistake with the rules. Some of the people on these forums seem to know the rules like they do their own names. Catching mistakes like these can make my day. Seeing someone catch Sean K Reynolds...?
I don't expect you to appreciate my gratitude, but THANK YOU!!!
*blink*
Wow, am I remembering a rule from 3.0? Weird. My apologies!
It's also a rule in Monte Cook's Collected Book of Experimental Might.
Just to be clear, i wasn't just asking if the initiative change was correct, but the over-all implementation of that rule-set?
Perhaps your DM was questioning whether you can move *and* ready an action? That's problem I often have as a DM, it feels like it should be a full round action. The rules however do list it as a standard action.