What do you mean, Louis?An easy example would be my Undefeatable line. The product is very inexpensive to make and it doesn't even use artwork. It has been a great selling and paid for itself very quickly.
Our PDF-only GM's Aid line and Player's Aid line are pretty much the same - no artwork, PDF only, produced entirely in-house. Time consuming, sometimes, but very low financial cost. But those lines produce a lot of our income, which can then be used to fund the art that goes into our print products.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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What do you mean, Louis?An easy example would be my Undefeatable line. The product is very inexpensive to make and it doesn't even use artwork. It has been a great selling and paid for itself very quickly.Another example...
My first PDF ever cost me ten bucks total; five for the stock art and five for the writer. I ran a sales report on just the OBS sites and it has sold 93 copies so far.
I paid a freelancer to flesh out the idea, and the stock art came from istockphoto.com.
Found HERE.
Coolio. Thanks for the insight.
Skortched Urf' Studios? I think I recently received one of your emails....
Not long ago, Headless Hydra Games was struck a hard blow by the angry gods of the soulless machine, meaning (of course) that my computer crashed! Yeah, I believe I've written enough about that, so let this be the absolutely last time I mention my computer crashing :)
However, Headless Hydra Games operate much like this; I get an idea, I write the idea down. The idea (hopefully) grows into a few lines and then a whole chapter. I then start doing the layout for the project (yeah, I do my own layout, and not because I'm cheap, but because I really love doing it), and keep writing, adding artwork as the artist(s) turn it in. Yeah, I order the artwork early on in the project, mostly because it's the thing I love doing the most. I always make sure to have a good and healthy relationship with my artists and cartographers, which basically means that I (almost) always pay them before they do the job. I would hate for them to do a lot of work and then have to tell them that I can't pay them. I've tried that myself as a writer, and it really annoyed me (and no, I'm not mentioning any names).
At the moment, I have also hired a few cool writers to add flavor to my setting, Mor Aldenn. They are basically writing novelettes for the setting, so I'm often forced to read (enjoyable) stories and give constructive feedback. It's a good feeling to see others take part in something you've created, definitely the next best thing about being a publisher.
I would love to publish other peoples projects, but I have to be honest. I'm not earning a dime on my products, and not because I dont sell any, but because I sell them cheap. I am definitely not in this for the money.
Anyways, a little insight into the life of a (very) small-time publisher.
Btw, all Headless Hydra Games' products were made using Scribus, an open source desktop publishing tool... I have nothing to compare it to, but I can tell you that it's very easy to use.
Also, if you are looking for a quality (affordable) artist, I'd definitely check out Gary Dupuis (www.gdupuis.com). Amazing work well worth his price, which is in the $10-75 range. Very easy to work with.
Thanks for the Shaman tip, that might actually be on the 'homeless bum' art budget.
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However, Headless Hydra Games operate much like this; I get an idea, I write the idea down. The idea (hopefully) grows into a few lines and then a whole chapter. I then start doing the layout for the project (yeah, I do my own layout, and not because I'm cheap, but because I really love doing it), and keep writing, adding artwork as the artist(s) turn it in.
Wait, wait, wait. You don't wait until after all the writing's done first?
I always make sure to have a good and healthy relationship with my artists and cartographers
Cartographers?
At the moment, I have also hired a few cool writers to add flavor to my setting, Mor Aldenn. They are basically writing novelettes for the setting
Now that's different. Are you the only one doing so at this time?
Anyways, a little insight into the life of a (very) small-time publisher.
Thanks for sharing!
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Btw, all Headless Hydra Games' products were made using Scribus, an open source desktop publishing tool... I have nothing to compare it to, but I can tell you that it's very easy to use.
Also, if you are looking for a quality (affordable) artist, I'd definitely check out Gary Dupuis (www.gdupuis.com). Amazing work well worth his price, which is in the $10-75 range. Very easy to work with.
Scribus? Gary Dupuis? I'll check them out. Thanks!
re: artists - Check out deviantART as well. Lots of artists there, from well known, established artists to up and coming folks looking for a break. Keep in mind, though, you just have to sift through a lot of crap to find the good stuff on dA sometimes.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
Well Rite Publishing is weird
We have the Patronage projects and we have the retail only products. I am also only a pdf and print on demand company.
Most of our retail only line tends to follow the economic model of stock art, and me as the primary author. I do all my layout using Microsoft Word 2007 and Pdf995. I do tend to tailor my writing to the art pieces I plan on using, which can make things easier.
Patronage allows for higher end products, I spend more on art, editing, cartography, layout, paper miniatures, and our patrons help us out proofreading, plus it allows us to .
I have never been shy about my retails sales as I don't consider them military secrets.
Feats 101 to date 184 copies sold
Agate Companion to date 84 copies sold
Ironborn of Questhaven to date 46 copies sold
Feats 101 to date 184 copies sold
Agate Companion to date 84 copies sold
Ironborn of Questhaven to date 46 copies soldNumbers? Squee!
*Scratches head* Uh, newbie here. Are these good figures? Bad mojo?
Feats 101 was #8 on the Rpgcountdown
I was one of those who purchased Feats 101. I'm a special fan of the Immortality feat :)
I always make sure to have a good and healthy relationship with my artists and cartographers
Cartographers?
Map makers!
At the moment, I have also hired a few cool writers to add flavor to my setting, Mor Aldenn. They are basically writing novelettes for the settingNow that's different. Are you the only one doing so at this time?
Can't say I've seen many other small publishers having freelancers write novellas. I've hired the occasional freelancer (like Brekkil/Axel here) to flesh out our Behind the Monsters line.
LOL! I use GPS these days ^_^I always make sure to have a good and healthy relationship with my artists and cartographers
Cartographers?Map makers!
Ha.
I decided to do a quick search for you for that Larry Elmore software. Sure enough, Noble Knight still has it.
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Ha.
I decided to do a quick search for you for that Larry Elmore software. Sure enough, Noble Knight still has it.
Hey. Thanks, man. I'll definitely check it out; was a major fan of his back in the day. (And still am.)
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Just a quick note of thanks to all the 3PP who have been posting in this thread and sharing so much insight. And a big thanks to joela for starting this thread.
And I do have a question for the 3PP folks. How big of a percentage of your PDF sales are through alternate vendor sites (such as RPGDrivethru, ENWorld or even right here on Paizo)? I guess I'm really asking is this, is having your own site a bigger plus as far as selling your product or do you get more sales from running through these alternate vendors?
And I do have a question for the 3PP folks. How big of a percentage of your PDF sales are through alternate vendor sites (such as RPGDrivethru, ENWorld or even right here on Paizo)? I guess I'm really asking is this, is having your own site a bigger plus as far as selling your product or do you get more sales from running through these alternate vendors?
We do not sell through our own web site. We depend entirely upon selling through Paizo.com, DriveThruRPG (and related OBS stores) and Your Games Now for our PDFs. You can get our PDFs at Indie Press Revolution, but the majority of our sales through IPR are our print products.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
Just a quick note of thanks to all the 3PP who have been posting in this thread and sharing so much insight. And a big thanks to joela for starting this thread.
And I do have a question for the 3PP folks. How big of a percentage of your PDF sales are through alternate vendor sites (such as RPGDrivethru, ENWorld or even right here on Paizo)? I guess I'm really asking is this, is having your own site a bigger plus as far as selling your product or do you get more sales from running through these alternate vendors?
Much like Robert, we do not sell pdfs through our own site (heck, we just about manage to keep updates on it!). We sell through OBS, YGN and Paizo as well as having, at this time, one print book over at Lulu.
And I do have a question for the 3PP folks. How big of a percentage of your PDF sales are through alternate vendor sites (such as RPGDrivethru, ENWorld or even right here on Paizo)? I guess I'm really asking is this, is having your own site a bigger plus as far as selling your product or do you get more sales from running through these alternate vendors?
Skortched Urf' Studios doesn't sell PDF's from our own site either. (Though we have in the past.) I'd say 80-90% of our sales come from the OBS sites (DriveThru and RPGNow), and the remaining 10-20% from Your Games Now and Paizo. The Paizo numbers I suspect will go up as I add more Pathfinder RPG products, of course. If your starting out then OBS is where you need to be. The sales tools, reports and upgrades really make them stand out compared to other sites.
My two cents.
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How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions folks. This is really quite a unique opportunity to ask those in the business about the business.
How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions folks. This is really quite a unique opportunity to ask those in the business about the business.
For our single PoD product, the response wasn't really good. However, the product in question was a compilation and many people had already bought either the separate pdfs before that or they bought the pdf version of the compilation. Both are reasons I can see for low PoD sales. Since we actually hired a layout person for this large book I can't speak to your software query.
How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions folks. This is really quite a unique opportunity to ask those in the business about the business.
For our products that are going to be print (and all our print stuff is technically PoD - we just order several and ship them to Paizo and IPR ourselves for sale) we only use InDesign, as we want the products to look as professional as possible, and InDesign can achieve things that Word/OpenOffice, etc. can't. There are open source layout programs out there, though, so don't feel you need to shell out the money for Adobe InDesign if it isn't in your budget.
As for sales, our total PDF sales, from all products combined, are about 3 times higher than our total print sales. When you compare our products that are available in both print and PDF formats, we sell just over 2 PDFs for each print copy we sell.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions folks. This is really quite a unique opportunity to ask those in the business about the business.
Most modern word processors allow you to save as a PDF, which is the standard format for sending files to a printer (at least, the ones that I've worked with before). InDesign and other layout programs let you fine tune the PDF export process though, which I haven't seen in word processing programs.
For a couple of weeks, I've been planning to do a weekly journal over on our Facebook fan page, and today, largely inspired by this thread, I posted the first installment. I don't think you have to be a Facebook member to read it, but I could be wrong (let me know, and I'll see if I can change any settings).
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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For a couple of weeks, I've been planning to do a weekly journal over on our Facebook fan page, and today, largely inspired by this thread, I posted the first installment. I don't think you have to be a Facebook member to read it, but I could be wrong (let me know, and I'll see if I can change any settings).
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
Yep, it's accessible. Thanks for giving this road of insight and I look forward to following it! :)
Yep, it's accessible. Thanks for giving this road of insight and I look forward to following it! :)
Awesome.
You bet, and thanks for reading!
Rite Publishing has occasionally sold products direct, but I have not found the software I like for this to do this 100% of the time.
All of our patronage projects are direct and I do enjoy that I lose less than 3.5% in paypal fees vs. 25-35% through vendors
One Book Shelf (rpgnow/drivethrurpg) is the game in town for PDF sales, Though Paizo is a close second and sometimes better, but only if its a Pathfinder Rpg product.
How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
-6 of Feats 101 were PoD copies.
But we see a very good turn around with this when we are doing patronage projects and I do like the quality I get from LULU.com, my only gripe would be the cost of color printing.
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
I do, other than the cover. Which has to be a High Resolution image file or a wrap around PDF cover. For patronage projects I do bring on a layout artist that uses InDesign for the cover.
And I do have a question for the 3PP folks. How big of a percentage of your PDF sales are through alternate vendor sites (such as RPGDrivethru, ENWorld or even right here on Paizo)? I guess I'm really asking is this, is having your own site a bigger plus as far as selling your product or do you get more sales from running through these alternate vendors?
Before the release of Pathfinder, my sale were 80-90% RPGNow and 10% everyone else. Now my sales are 45% RPGNow, 45% Paizo and 10% everyone else.
How does the PoD response compare to the PDF response for product?
For me many be 1%. I really don't push POD as mush as a should.
Additionally, for the PoD products, do you stick with the same text software (i.e. - OpenOffice, Word, etc.) that is used for creating the PDFs or do you move to a publishing layout application (i.e. - InDesign)?
I use InDesign because in my real life I am a graphic desiger with nearly 20 years of experience. But you should use what ever you feel comfortable with.
For those of you looking for a source of cheap artwork, I have one possible avenue to propose for you.
You see, my dad is currently locked up in prison, and I've learned something from him.
There are many talented people incarcerated.
These people have few interesting things to do.
These people like having money for various purposes (especially if they don't have family putting money on their books)
It's not an option anybody can tap, but I'm certain with the proper legal contracts and such you could hire such an individual through mail.
Of course, you would need to know somebody on the inside to hook you up.
Right now I've got 5 professional quality pictures commissioned for 5 dollars each, when getting one of these from a deviantart artist would typically cost around 40$.
So how might some of us 3PP's get hooked up with convict artists? Got an example of the art we can look at? Inquiring minds want to know!
So how might some of us 3PP's get hooked up with convict artists? Got an example of the art we can look at? Inquiring minds want to know!
Damn Skippy! I would like to hear more about that!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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For our single PoD product, the response wasn't really good. However, the product in question was a compilation and many people had already bought either the separate pdfs before that or they bought the pdf version of the compilation. Both are reasons I can see for low PoD sales. Since we actually hired a layout person for this large book I can't speak to your software query.
That's a shame. I have the Dead tree of Behind the Spells and am very happy. (I love the modifications to Shield the best)
For our single PoD product, the response wasn't really good. However, the product in question was a compilation and many people had already bought either the separate pdfs before that or they bought the pdf version of the compilation. Both are reasons I can see for low PoD sales. Since we actually hired a layout person for this large book I can't speak to your software query.That's a shame. I have the Dead tree of Behind the Spells and am very happy. (I love the modifications to Shield the best)
Thanks, Matthew! Don't feel too bad. I said that the print version didn't do well but we've been happy with the pdf sales (i.e. we made our money back on the BtS: Compendium).
Before August 13, 2008, about 85% of our PDF sales were through DriveThruRPG/RPGNow. Since we started releasing Pathfinder-compatible material in August that has changed and about 85% of our PDF sales are now through Paizo's store.
For our print products, about 65% of the sales are retail sales through Paizo, about 5% are retail sales through Indie Press Revolution, about 20% are wholesale sales through IPR, about 3% are retail sales through Lulu, 2% are wholesale sales through Lulu, and the remaining 5% are sales we handle directly.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
re: artists - Check out deviantART as well.
A good place to start your search on dA is the dA Club hiredeviantARTISTS. It's a very small subset of the number of artists on dA, but all of them are interested in work, and all have profiles with examples of what they can do.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I am a member of this group myself, but for artisan crafts - if I could draw, we could sure save on art for our books!)
Connie
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Thanks, Matthew! Don't feel too bad. I said that the print version didn't do well but we've been happy with the pdf sales (i.e. we made our money back on the BtS: Compendium).For our single PoD product, the response wasn't really good. However, the product in question was a compilation and many people had already bought either the separate pdfs before that or they bought the pdf version of the compilation. Both are reasons I can see for low PoD sales. Since we actually hired a layout person for this large book I can't speak to your software query.That's a shame. I have the Dead tree of Behind the Spells and am very happy. (I love the modifications to Shield the best)
Oh, it's a shame because the model doesn't support another compilation or a compilation of the beasts into a book. ;-)
Oh, it's a shame because the model doesn't support another compilation or a compilation of the beasts into a book. ;-)Thanks, Matthew! Don't feel too bad. I said that the print version didn't do well but we've been happy with the pdf sales (i.e. we made our money back on the BtS: Compendium).For our single PoD product, the response wasn't really good. However, the product in question was a compilation and many people had already bought either the separate pdfs before that or they bought the pdf version of the compilation. Both are reasons I can see for low PoD sales. Since we actually hired a layout person for this large book I can't speak to your software query.That's a shame. I have the Dead tree of Behind the Spells and am very happy. (I love the modifications to Shield the best)
I wouldn't rule anything out if I were you. ;)
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Wow this is such an interesting read. I am trying to start a gaming publishing bussines down here in Peru, but pirate stuff is such a pain to deal with. All this is very helpfull.
Just one thing, due to crappy economy the dollar is worrth much more here that up there. So many talented people would be willing to do artwork for very little, $15 at the most (Like my GF who does the art for my stuff)
Just one thing, due to crappy economy the dollar is worrth much more here that up there. So many talented people would be willing to do artwork for very little, $15 at the most (Like my GF who does the art for my stuff)
Got a link or samples of her work?
I just remembered something important...
One of the most important things that I've learned from being a publisher is that reviews sells products (yeah, of course they do!). The single Headless Hydra Games' product that has ever gotten a review here on Paizo.com has sold quite well, while the rest of them... has not.
Also, I love the idea of publishing Pathfinder-compatible material here on the home planet, but to be honest, I've sold most of my products on RPGNow.com, something like 75% of all my sales. Also, people at RPGNow seem more willing to download free products, which is a great way of advertising your skills.
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She has a deviant art account under the username Tsailanza, sadly enought here at work I can´t acces deviantart.I will lin it when I get home.
And again thanks for all the usefull information.
EDIT: Can´t enter deviantart itself, but i sure can link the google search with it´s link
http://www.google.com.pe/#hl=es&ei=JOxES96GII6ylAeCkKWkBw&sa=X& oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAYQBSgA&q=devian tart+tsailanza&spell=1&fp=8c94a7d7983a5065
CEO
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Oh! What are some of the major frustrations you've encountered as publishers?The primary thing for me is time. 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming is me and my wife (though we have two writers who do a lot of - most of, in some cases - work-for-hire writing for us) and so finding the time to do all the things that need to be done is troublesome. 4WFG is a full-time job for me, and yet it is not lucrative enough for me to quite my day job. Perhaps someday it will be, but we're just 10 months old right now. So right now, I have to juggle a full-time day job (which is actually a 15-year career) with the full-time publishing company. Leaves me feeling exhausted a lot of the time, but at least its worth it.
Robert
This reminds me of when I got started in the industry back in 1987. I started a company called Lion Rampant up in Northfield, Minnesota with Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein•Hagen. We weren't paying ourselves, so I had to have a full-time job to pay the bills. We actually ran the company out of my living room in my apartment. I would get up at 4am in the morning and get to work at 6am (after a 1 hour drive). I would work until 3pm and then drive the one hour home. I would then work on Lion Rampant until about 11 pm, go to bed for 5 hours, and repeat. Some days I was so exhausted, that I found ways to get a nap in on the job. I know, not cool. But it was exhausting and something I could only do for about a year. So, I feel your pain!
-Lisa
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This reminds me of when I got started in the industry back in 1987. I started a company called Lion Rampant up in Northfield, Minnesota with Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein•Hagen. We weren't paying ourselves, so I had to have a full-time job to pay the bills. We actually ran the company out of my living room in my apartment. I would get up at 4am in the morning and get to work at 6am (after a 1 hour drive). I would work until 3pm and then drive the one hour home. I would then work on Lion Rampant until about 11 pm, go to bed for 5 hours, and repeat. Some days I was so exhausted, that I found ways to get a nap in on the job. I know, not cool. But it was exhausting and something I could only do for about a year. So, I feel your pain!
-Lisa
Thanks for sharing, Lisa. Actually, your presence brings up something else:
Is Paizo considered a third-party publisher any more? From my (admittedly limited) understanding of 3PPs, they support other companies products. In the case of rpgs, that means alternative rules, new settings, etc. Now, though, Paizo has its own product: The Pathfinder Roleplaying game, which other 3PPs are supporting.
What do y'all think?
I just remembered something important...
One of the most important things that I've learned from being a publisher is that reviews sells products (yeah, of course they do!). The single Headless Hydra Games' product that has ever gotten a review here on Paizo.com has sold quite well, while the rest of them... has not.
Also, I love the idea of publishing Pathfinder-compatible material here on the home planet, but to be honest, I've sold most of my products on RPGNow.com, something like 75% of all my sales. Also, people at RPGNow seem more willing to download free products, which is a great way of advertising your skills.
Reviews are very good for sales. All three of our print products have been reviewed in multiple places, and many of our PDF-only products as well. And something I've noticed - and I think I remember Louis blogging or tweeting about something similar once - is that even bad reviews tend to drive sales up, especially if most of the reviews are actually good, but one or two are bad. Not sure the reasoning on that, but I'm not complaining!
We've only got one freebie right now (but have more planned), and we've had just about as many people download it here at Paizo as have from the OBS stores.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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Is Paizo considered a third-party publisher any more? From my (admittedly limited) understanding of 3PPs, they support other companies products. In the case of rpgs, that means alternative rules, new settings, etc. Now, though, Paizo has its own product: The Pathfinder Roleplaying game, which other 3PPs are supporting.
What do y'all think?
I'd figure their 3pp status ended when the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was released and the lines threatened to clog all of GenCon.