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You know, it just dawned on me that while we Paizoians(sp?) know a little about how Paizo generates its products via its blog, we know virtually nothing about how other, even more niche, companies create their products.
How does, for example, Necromancer Games determine its next product? Does Adamant select its next product on some arcane formula based on WotC sales? Green Ronin, just how did you obtain those licenses? LPD, why pdfs instead of print? Rite Publishing editors, what's your daily life like prepping the next Ptolus product?
C'mon, 3PPs! Give your fans some behind the scenes tours of your deepest, darkest, secrets. ;-)
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C'mon, 3PPs! Give your fans some behind the scenes tours of your deepest, darkest, secrets. ;-)
You should watch my old webcast webseries, The RPG Publishing Gauntlet. It gives you a read behind the scens of what it is like to be a a 3PP. Enjoy!
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C'mon, 3PPs! Give your fans some behind the scenes tours of your deepest, darkest, secrets. ;-)You should watch my old webcast webseries, The RPG Publishing Gauntlet. It gives you a read behind the scens of what it is like to be a a 3PP. Enjoy!
Coolio! Thanks, Louis.
Tricky Owlbear operates pretty much on a "I'll get to that when I have time" basis. Yeah, I said it. When we do get something out on the market, though, you can be sure it's of the best quality possible for our small team.
Essentially, I write most of the company's products (good or bad? I'll let you decide) and then my brother (who is the other half of the company) proofreads and lays out the product. While he's doing that, I scare up some artwork and then it all gets put together for my final review and approval.
As for determining what products to do (and Louis will probably slap me for this philosophy), I go by what I enjoy writing and not necessarily what might sell the best. Take the "Behind the Spells" line. Sure, it doesn't sell as well as it did in its heyday but I still love the concept and enjoy fleshing out the unofficial history of D&D's classic spells. When Pathfinder showed up, I knew other publishers would be concentrating on the basics--new classes, spells, and other player-related crunch. What did we do? We published Abbey of the Golden Sparrow, a location product with stuff for players and GMs. I personally mine the heck out of locale-style products for my own campaigns and think they're nice and tidy to write too. Look for our second release ("The Favored of Skexxiz" featuring troglodytes) very soon.
I guess to sum up, Tricky Owlbear bucks the trends and does its own thing on its own timetable. We may not be as prolific or big as other 3PPs but I like to think we have a good reputation.
The best way to find out what we're up to and why and to get updates on what we are doing is to follow us on on Twitter (4WFG on Twitter) or become a fan of 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming on Facebook.
We post fairly regularly about what we're doing and what's coming up, and soon there may be a blog-type weekly update on the Facebook fan page that talks about design ideas and inspiration and will be occasionally written by our contributors and artists.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
As for determining what products to do (and Louis will probably slap me for this philosophy), I go by what I enjoy writing and not necessarily what might sell the best.
Don't kid yourself there are A LOT of project LPJ Design did because I just wanted to. Hell, I did a project called Bad Dog that was a D20 Modern sourcebook on dogs because I wanted to. You heard me right, DOGS I said. LOL!!!!
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Tricky Owlbear operates pretty much on a "I'll get to that when I have time" basis. Yeah, I said it. When we do get something out on the market, though, you can be sure it's of the best quality possible for our small team.
Essentially, I write most of the company's products (good or bad? I'll let you decide) and then my brother (who is the other half of the company) proofreads and lays out the product. While he's doing that, I scare up some artwork and then it all gets put together for my final review and approval.
As for determining what products to do (and Louis will probably slap me for this philosophy), I go by what I enjoy writing and not necessarily what might sell the best. Take the "Behind the Spells" line. Sure, it doesn't sell as well as it did in its heyday but I still love the concept and enjoy fleshing out the unofficial history of D&D's classic spells. When Pathfinder showed up, I knew other publishers would be concentrating on the basics--new classes, spells, and other player-related crunch. What did we do? We published Abbey of the Golden Sparrow, a location product with stuff for players and GMs. I personally mine the heck out of locale-style products for my own campaigns and think they're nice and tidy to write too. Look for our second release ("The Favored of Skexxiz" featuring troglodytes) very soon.
I guess to sum up, Tricky Owlbear bucks the trends and does its own thing on its own timetable. We may not be as prolific or big as other 3PPs but I like to think we have a good reputation.
Coolio about your business direction. Do you sometimes get any flack, though, for not having a timetable?
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The best way to find out what we're up to and why and to get updates on what we are doing is to follow us on on Twitter (4WFG on Twitter) or become a fan of 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming on Facebook.
We post fairly regularly about what we're doing and what's coming up, and soon there may be a blog-type weekly update on the Facebook fan page that talks about design ideas and inspiration and will be occasionally written by our contributors and artists.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
I'll check it out. Thanks, Robert!
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As for determining what products to do (and Louis will probably slap me for this philosophy), I go by what I enjoy writing and not necessarily what might sell the best.Don't kid yourself there are A LOT of project LPJ Design did because I just wanted to. Hell, I did a project called Bad Dog that was a D20 Modern sourcebook on dogs because I wanted to. You heard me right, DOGS I said. LOL!!!!
ROFLHO! Thank the gawds I wasn't drinking my (hot) tea at the time. ;-)
~grins~ Interesting. Thanks for sharing this with us!
I'll check it out. Thanks, Robert!
No problem!
Coolio about your business direction. Do you sometimes get any flack, though, for not having a timetable?
Not that I've noticed.
And Louis, a product about dogs?! Heh, I missed that one.
And Robert's post reminded me to share our own online presence (besides me popping up randomly on messageboards). Tricky Owlbear is on twitter, Facebook, our blog, and website. :)
Did such lack of information give you pause?
It's not just confined to the RPG industry. A lot of companies are hesitant to release such figures, regardless of the actual industry.
But, no, it didn't for 4 Winds. We knew we were not competing directly with the Big Boys of WotC and Paizo, or even with the well-established 3PPs like Mongoose, Green Ronin, Goodman Games, and others. I did some research and reading, e-mailed some people and got some advice, and went from there.
Now that we are out there, I can tell you that while the numbers aren't any easier to access, you can get a good idea of what's going on by paying attention to the twice-a-month RPG Countdown. If one of your products makes it into the countdown, you've got a pretty good idea of how everyone below and above you are doing. When our Paths of Power book made into the December 18 countdown, we were absolutely thrilled, and not just because that meant awesome sales for the book's first 2 weeks, but because it gave us an idea of where those that ranked ahead and below us were in relation to our sales.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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Now that we are out there, I can tell you that while the numbers aren't any easier to access, you can get a good idea of what's going on by paying attention to the twice-a-month RPG Countdown.
Huh. Never heard of this. Thanks, Robert. I'll check it out.
Huh. Never heard of this. Thanks, Robert. I'll check it out.
You bet! Ed Healy and Rone Barton do a heck of a job putting the RPG Countdown together.
Did such lack of information give you pause?
Nope. Although we did have some information from the OBS New Publisher Setup Package (which had some sales numbers from 2004). I would actually suggest this if you decide to self-publish and also Mongoose's how-to pdf I Am Mongoose, and So Can You!.
There was also a series by Gareth Skarka and Phil Reed (two pdf publishing giants) on the ins and outs of pdf publishing but I'm not sure if those pdfs are available now. I personally knew a few things just from being a freelancer since 2001 when Tricky Owlbear became incorporated on 7/7/07 (the "Mark of the Owlbear" as I like to call it) as well.
There was also a series by Gareth Skarka and Phil Reed (two pdf publishing giants) on the ins and outs of pdf publishing but I'm not sure if those pdfs are available now. I personally knew a few things just from being a freelancer since 2001 when Tricky Owlbear became incorporated on 7/7/07 (the "Mark of the Owlbear" as I like to call it) as well.
That was a very good series, and I found and read it before we started 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. They have it available for purchase now in one collection via their Lulu store. You can also download some of them individually at Your Games Now.
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That was a very good series, and I found and read it before we started 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming. They have it available for purchase now in one collection via their Lulu store. You can also download some of them individually at Your Games Now.
There was also a series by Gareth Skarka and Phil Reed (two pdf publishing giants) on the ins and outs of pdf publishing but I'm not sure if those pdfs are available now. I personally knew a few things just from being a freelancer since 2001 when Tricky Owlbear became incorporated on 7/7/07 (the "Mark of the Owlbear" as I like to call it) as well.
Coolio. Thanks, gentlemen.
Oh! What are some of the major frustrations you've encountered as publishers?
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Oh! What are some of the major frustrations you've encountered as publishers?
For me, there have been a couple frustrating things. One is the amount of time I could be spending creating, writing, doing layout - the fun stuff! - that instead I spend doing bookkeeping, paying bills, running to the post office and the office supply stores, keeping track of inventory, etc. When you start a publishing company, you know that you're going to have to do all those things - especially when your company consists of just two people at the "headquarters" (i.e. the room in our basement we call our office) - but it really eats up a lot of time and energy. I am not at all looking forward to getting everything ready for our taxes this year, mainly because of the time it's going to take away from writing.
Another frustration is the number of well-meaning friends who keep popping up out of the woodwork "volunteering" to "proofread" for us, because they caught one or two typos in a finished product that were missed by Robert, myself, our writers, and our editor. If it hasn't been caught by 5 sets of eyes, we can't afford to take the time to have a 6th set read through the whole thing, or we'd never get the products put out, and we also can't afford the money to pay a proofreader on top of an editor (because rare is the "volunteer" who truly wishes to go unpaid somehow!). There was a thread on this very topic directed at Paizo not long ago and I was so happy to see the Paizo people saying the same thing! We love that our friends are enthusiastic, and appreciate their offers, but...
Connie Thomson
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
Another frustration is the number of well-meaning friends who keep popping up out of the woodwork "volunteering" to "proofread" for us, because they caught one or two typos in a finished product that were missed by Robert, myself, our writers, and our editor. If it hasn't been caught by 5 sets of eyes, we can't afford to take the time to have a 6th set read through the whole thing, or we'd never get the products put out, and we also can't afford the money to pay a proofreader on top of an editor (because rare is the "volunteer" who truly wishes to go unpaid somehow!). There was a thread on this very topic directed at Paizo not long ago and I was so happy to see the Paizo people saying the same thing! We love that our friends are enthusiastic, and appreciate their offers, but...
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK, I think I pissed on myself !!!!
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Another frustration is the number of well-meaning friends who keep popping up out of the woodwork "volunteering" to "proofread" for us, because they caught one or two typos in a finished product that were missed by Robert, myself, our writers, and our editor. If it hasn't been caught by 5 sets of eyes, we can't afford to take the time to have a 6th set read through the whole thing, or we'd never get the products put out, and we also can't afford the money to pay a proofreader on top of an editor (because rare is the "volunteer" who truly wishes to go unpaid somehow!). There was a thread on this very topic directed at Paizo not long ago and I was so happy to see the Paizo people saying the same thing! We love that our friends are enthusiastic, and appreciate their offers, but...Connie Thomson
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
LOL. Yeah. I think it was Sean K Reynolds who mentioned that. ^_^
Oh! What are some of the major frustrations you've encountered as publishers?
The primary thing for me is time. 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming is me and my wife (though we have two writers who do a lot of - most of, in some cases - work-for-hire writing for us) and so finding the time to do all the things that need to be done is troublesome. 4WFG is a full-time job for me, and yet it is not lucrative enough for me to quite my day job. Perhaps someday it will be, but we're just 10 months old right now. So right now, I have to juggle a full-time day job (which is actually a 15-year career) with the full-time publishing company. Leaves me feeling exhausted a lot of the time, but at least its worth it.
Robert
My major frustration is with myself. In my freelancing days, I had to write on a deadline or else risk losing pay or the gig entirely. Now, as president of the company, if I slack off on the writing I just let out a sigh and resolve to do more the next day (which sometimes happens). Truthfully, after writing like a dog for years (I was actually up for the "Author Most Likely to be a Caffeine Powered Robot" 2005 GameWyrd Award), I'm happy to have had the stress-reduced downtime. But I'm looking to get back into fighting form in 2010!
So, yes, it's easy to give yourself too much slack when running your own company. As Robert mentioned, we're working full-time jobs while running our companies so it's sometimes tough to keep up energy and enthusiasm after coming home from that 9-to-5. Nevertheless, we do it because we love to do it (not for the monetary rewards, although those are nice if/when they arrive).
Any 3pp have advice on finding reasonable free, royalty-free artwork?
I'd like to do some self-pub, but anything more than pocket change is too much of an investment.
C'mon, 3PPs! Give your fans some behind the scenes tours of your deepest, darkest, secrets. ;-)
No secrets here to tell. Most of Skortched Urf' Studios products came about one of two ways. In the first I get an idea for a product and either write it or give the idea to a freelancer, they run with it and maybe I tweak it a bit.
The other is a freelancer pitches an idea to me and I accept it. It helps if the idea is already part of a line; like D20 Modern Advanced classes so I can insert it into an existing line.
I plan my releases around a few factors; I want something that will...um..sell. I'd really like to make my money back on them and (dare to dream) then make a little profit as well. Naturally I also want things that are interesting or that bring a little something new to the game too. In the end, its pretty cool being "The Boss" and getting to decide what gets made, or which idea you want to foster into a finished product.
As for where to find good art cheap; if you find out let me know too!
Seriously, it is EASY to find good artists; the real trick is finding an artist you can afford. :-) I've paid good money over the years for art, and it has been worth every penny. Words all look the same, even when laid out all pretty. If you want your RPG material to stand out then bite the bullet and find good art. Usually that means paying someone more than you really want to. Pay as little as you can, but in the end you will have to pay for quality. Foster a good working relationship with your artist and it will pay you back in spades.
My two cents.
Unfortunately, if it's a choice between 'don't publish' and 'pay reasonably for decent art,' I'm stuck with option A.
A buddy and I are in the middle of developing a custom campaign setting and introductory adventure, made for Pathfinder. We originally planned to try to go the classic route of creating PDF's of each and then attempting to sell them via RPGNow or other online PDF retailers. However, with the cost of custom art being so prohibitive we are considering alternative ideas.
One idea we had is giving away the campaign setting and adventure and then maintaining a Google Site with constantly added new content, errata, updates, etc. We'd charge some ridiculously low price for this "value-added" site, like $10 per year or something (don't quote me lol). Then people who sign up can help suggest new directions for the setting, new spells, new classes, etc. We were kind of thinking of the patronage concept. Basically people who sign up as members of the site get to help develop the content going forward, as well as always getting free content throughout the year etc.
So I was wondering what the general feelings on that idea were? Do people generally think it would be a horrible idea, you'd never imagine getting involved in such a thing, or would it depend on the quality of the free setting and adventure? Or, would you basically just scam the campaign setting and adventure and then we'd never see you again? lol
Unfortunately, if it's a choice between 'don't publish' and 'pay reasonably for decent art,' I'm stuck with option A.
You can still get reasonable art for a good price. I usually paid between 15 and 50 dollars for art; with the average being 35 bucks or so. (Most of it in color, B&W can be cheaper in many cases.) If you have fifty or a hundred bucks I am sure you can find someone to illustrate a product for you. (Maybe not your 120 page book, but a five to ten page PDF anyway.)
If anyone feels that is "too much money" then lets take a good look at how much it is or isn't; that's a couple days worth of work at a part time job. I bet we all have old games/figures/comic books/paintball guns/whatever sitting around that could earn that kind of money on ebay this weekend. If you really want to get something "out there" then you can find a way.
There are some fairly good stock art resources for very little money. Skortched Urf' Studios, LPJ Design and Shamman's Stock Art are three great ones. Post on places like Pencil Jack or Digital Webbing saying something to the effect of "I can pay twenty or thirty bucks plus publishing credit for some illustration" and you will get a few hungry artists answering your post. I have my daughter checking her high school art class for potential freelancers too. Think outside the box, beat a few bushes and anyone can find a way in my opinion.
Barring that, if you have a great idea and manuscript you want published, send me an email. I'm a publisher after all, so I'm always on the lookout for new stuff!
Artwork is definitely worth $15-100 a piece, depending.
My total budget is like $5. You see my problem. ;)
I may simply do without, since 1/4 of 'a handful of sales' is pretty similar to 'a handful of sales.'
That said, if I get something in a decent state, maybe it'd be better to shop around for a publisher, as you suggest! (I'll be sure to bug you first)
Artwork is definitely worth $15-100 a piece, depending.
My total budget is like $5. You see my problem. ;)
Then you then should pick up stock art from Shaman Stockart. Full color art work for less than a $1 each. I know you can afford that. When you start out as a 3PP you really should focus on gettting product out that make you some kind of cashflow (If that is your focus) because that takes the pressure off of you having to pay for "good" artwork out of your pocket. Cashflow is king in this buisness.
Then you then should pick up stock art from Shaman Stockart. Full color art work for less than a $1 each. I know you can afford that. When you start out as a 3PP you really should focus on gettting product out that make you some kind of cashflow (If that is your focus) because that takes the pressure off of you having to pay for "good" artwork out of your pocket. Cashflow is king in this buisness.
I agree with Louis. In fact, what started this thread was how 3PP choose projects. If your just starting out I recommend you get your hands on some of the good (and cheap!) stock art and build some releases around them. Art for a buck or two, free writing and layout because you are doing it yourself, and you only have to sell a three or four copies before its paid for itself.
In fact, I got a CD of Larry Elmore stock art that I have specifically built a line of PDF "Wanted Poster" type products. It was the stock art that gave me the idea for them. (Not published yet, was working on the layout last night; look for them soon.)
Any 3pp have advice on finding reasonable free, royalty-free artwork?
I'd like to do some self-pub, but anything more than pocket change is too much of an investment.
I agree with Louis. Pick up some inexpensive stock art. We have some regular artists we use, but we also use a lot of licensed stock art we've purchased to fill in the gaps and to save money. I would completely avoid free stock art because of the possibility that it might not actually be usable as stock art. Anyone can post anything on the Internet and tell you it's free to use. That doesn't make it legal, though, and you could end up in unexpected negotiations with the artist over usage payments.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
In fact, I got a CD of Larry Elmore stock art that I have specifically built a line of PDF "Wanted Poster" type products. It was the stock art that gave me the idea for them. (Not published yet, was working on the layout last night; look for them soon.)
We've used the Elmore stock art a couple times as well. Nice way to get a huge name artist in your stuff for very little money.
Robert
Everyone is mentioning layout. If I were to generate a pdf-only product, will OpenOffice Write be okay? Or do I need to invest money (and time!) in Adobe InDesign?
Open office is fine. Most layout is really one or two colums of text with space for the image. You certainly do not need to invest in InDesign. Having said that, I use InDesign and I love it, but for a start-up PDF company it's overkill.
Everyone is mentioning layout. If I were to generate a pdf-only product, will OpenOffice Write be okay? Or do I need to invest money (and time!) in Adobe InDesign?
For our PDF-only products, I use good old Microsoft Word. For our print products, Connie uses Adobe InDesign.
Robert
4 Winds Fantasy Gaming
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Then you then should pick up stock art from Shaman Stockart. Full color art work for less than a $1 each.
I'll check it out. Thanks!
When you start out as a 3PP you really should focus on gettting product out that make you some kind of cashflow (If that is your focus) because that takes the pressure off of you having to pay for "good" artwork out of your pocket. Cashflow is king in this buisness.
What do you mean, Louis?
Where'd you get the CD?
Larry sold it through his web site store a few years ago. I've looked recently and don't see it in his store any longer. You might still be able to find it on eBay, though. Search for "Elmore Character Clip Art and Color Customizing Studio".
Robert
What do you mean, Louis?
An easy example would be my Undefeatable line. The product is very inexpensive to make and it doesn't even use artwork. It has been a great selling and paid for itself very quickly.
What do you mean, Louis?An easy example would be my Undefeatable line. The product is very inexpensive to make and it doesn't even use artwork. It has been a great selling and paid for itself very quickly.
Another example...
My first PDF ever cost me ten bucks total; five for the stock art and five for the writer. I ran a sales report on just the OBS sites and it has sold 93 copies so far.
I paid a freelancer to flesh out the idea, and the stock art came from istockphoto.com.
Found HERE.
Where'd you get the CD?Larry sold it through his web site store a few years ago. I've looked recently and don't see it in his store any longer. You might still be able to find it on eBay, though. Search for "Elmore Character Clip Art and Color Customizing Studio".
Robert
I found one at Noble Knight and am happy to have it as a resource.
Then you then should pick up stock art from Shaman Stockart. Full color art work for less than a $1 each. I know you can afford that. When you start out as a 3PP you really should focus on gettting product out that make you some kind of cashflow (If that is your focus) because that takes the pressure off of you having to pay for "good" artwork out of your pocket. Cashflow is king in this buisness.Artwork is definitely worth $15-100 a piece, depending.
My total budget is like $5. You see my problem. ;)
SWEET!!! Even for us non-publishers, that is pretty cool stuff! Thanks!