as far as I have been houseruling spells I assure you I am more inclined to downgrade cleric more than wizard, haste is just a prime example of a silly spell in my opinion.
An encounter with hasted party is devastatingly more effective than a party without, a spell that becomes so important to a party's performance is in my opinion too powerful. The impact a haste spell causes can not be mimicked by another spell of similar power.
It makes martial characters near twice as effective, and that for the entire party is way too much I think. how will that even start to compare to a summon of equal level for instance ?
as for spell selection, I agree quality is more important, though a cleric does not have to choose among the spells he puts in his spell book and can memorize more spells, often it is more about the right spell on the right time than a 'higher quality' spell.
spontaneous casting gives the cleric considerable freedom with some situational spells, since a spell that wasnt so useful afterall can still be converted.
Clerics also have to spend money on melee gear and magical gear since they live in both worlds. A wizard can prep the spells he wants and buy/make scrolls, wand, and staves for any other spells. He has a lot of money to dedicate to doing that. Unless the DM goes out of his way to deny the wizard certain spells the chances of him not having a decent spell, even if it's not the perfect spell is highly unlikely. In the end the wizards normally have more spells available, and better spells to use.
that might be part of the problem, I do not play campaigns where players can easily make magic items or walk into a magic store to buy what they need.
magic tends to be a bit more rare and random, I'll pretty much dish out magic treasure by character concepts and for the better part unique items in some way.
the main casting wizard in the party isnt really very creative though, but the cleric is holding back and simply not using some of his spells because they do not fit in with his character concept.
It all works in the end really, by the way I am not just nerfing spells, some spells I tend to make more interesting.
acid arow damage increased to 3d6 damage with 5 damage every round after, or allowing stoneskin to be cast without component with a duration of 1 round per level instead.
Clerics can readily enchant that gear though magic vestment for armor and shield and greater magic weapon solves that really.
that might be part of the problem, I do not play campaigns where players can easily make magic items or walk into a magic store to buy what they need.
magic tends to be a bit more rare and random, I'll pretty much dish out magic treasure by character concepts and for the better part unique items in some way.
the main casting wizard in the party isnt really very creative though, but the cleric is holding back and simply not using some of his spells because they do not fit in with his character concept.
It all works in the end really, by the way I am not just nerfing spells, some spells I tend to make more interesting.
acid arow damage increased to 3d6 damage with 5 damage every round after, or allowing stoneskin to be cast without component with a duration of 1 round per level instead.
Clerics can readily enchant that gear though magic vestment for armor and shield and greater magic weapon solves that really.
The rules assume that magic items are not rare. That does not mean you have to give the players what they want, but if they can get to a major city it can be found. By not doing that you are changing the designers intention of how the game would be ran*.
If the wizard is not creative, that is another issue. A spell created for purpose can be used for another if you have a creative player.Clerics can enchant gear, but the castings are limited. They typical party has a melee guy, the cleric, and a rogue. Having enough spells and time to enchant everyone's gear is not likely, especially over the course of several battles. That means everyone is easier to hit than they should be. It also means they don't hit as hard or as often unless you are going out of the way to make the fights easier, which again goes into houserule territory*.
*I am not saying any of these are bad, but they are not the norm.
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If you have to spend your rounds healing (i.e. std action), then healing is all you can do (as you only get 1 std action per round) and nothing else in the class is of any use. If you do anything else with the rounds the party suffers usually in PC death.
For those of you comparing the spells of wizards and clerics you are forgetting one thing. The wizard is supposed to use their turn to impact combat. The cleric usually ends up spending their action (once again I will reference the above quote) to heal the party in some capacity. Under Pathfinder this severely limits the cleric. If you use your spells to spontaneously heal (you then have none left) or you use your channel positive energy to do this healing is still the only thing you end up doing during combat. Because of this the argument is a moot point.
I know poor cleric right, with his D8 , medium BAB, ability to wear armor and cast spells, and do a healing burst. Gods I just do not know how anyone plays such a weak class.
Guys you have alot of stuff you can do, and yes that mean you need to make a call on what you are doing this round. Having to make that call is part of the game. You can fight or cast spells, you can do both but you do need to pick which your doing that round.
The more options a class has, then the more choices you need to make per round on what you will do.
Except you aren't supposed to spend your action healing. Taking out the opposition before it can attack again is so much more efficient. Trying to combat heal effectively is like trying to swim up a waterfall. Only a select few creatures (Salmon in real life, HEAVILY optimized clerics/paladins employing 3.5 splat material in 3.5/pathfinder) are able to pull it off.For those of you comparing the spells of wizards and clerics you are forgetting one thing. The wizard is supposed to use their turn to impact combat. The cleric usually ends up spending their action (once again I will reference the above quote) to heal the party in some capacity. Under Pathfinder this severely limits the cleric. If you use your spells to spontaneously heal (you then have none left) or you use your channel positive energy to do this healing is still the only thing you end up doing during combat. Because of this the argument is a moot point.
If you have to spend your rounds healing (i.e. std action), then healing is all you can do (as you only get 1 std action per round) and nothing else in the class is of any use. If you do anything else with the rounds the party suffers usually in PC death.
+1.
To Tessara Liadon: How are you always healing? I guess what I am asking is how is someone getting hurt so badly that they require healing every round? Most groups don't ask for help until their hit points are pretty low.
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+1.Except you aren't supposed to spend your action healing. Taking out the opposition before it can attack again is so much more efficient. Trying to combat heal effectively is like trying to swim up a waterfall. Only a select few creatures (Salmon in real life, HEAVILY optimized clerics/paladins employing 3.5 splat material in 3.5/pathfinder) are able to pull it off.For those of you comparing the spells of wizards and clerics you are forgetting one thing. The wizard is supposed to use their turn to impact combat. The cleric usually ends up spending their action (once again I will reference the above quote) to heal the party in some capacity. Under Pathfinder this severely limits the cleric. If you use your spells to spontaneously heal (you then have none left) or you use your channel positive energy to do this healing is still the only thing you end up doing during combat. Because of this the argument is a moot point.
If you have to spend your rounds healing (i.e. std action), then healing is all you can do (as you only get 1 std action per round) and nothing else in the class is of any use. If you do anything else with the rounds the party suffers usually in PC death.
LOL very funny and we are employing 3.5 splat and I am pretty optimized with a little help from those who are very familiar with said splat material. ;-)
To Tessara Liadon: How are you always healing? I guess what I am asking is how is someone getting hurt so badly that they require healing every round? Most groups don't ask for help until their hit points are pretty low.
I must say there are several variables regarding this.
1. The DM has a penchant for rolling then comfirming crits.2. Part of this is on the group I play with lets say tactics aren't really there. (Of course the people who cause this won't play the cleric)
3. Usually somehow someone is always rendered useless in combat. i.e. primary damage dealer failed a save gianing the frightened condition and couldn't participate in 90% of that encounter. The one time I did decide to go the offensive path I was the one who ended up dead......go figure (it turned out to be pretty funny).
To Tessara Liadon: How are you always healing? I guess what I am asking is how is someone getting hurt so badly that they require healing every round? Most groups don't ask for help until their hit points are pretty low.I must say there are several variables regarding this.
1. The DM has a penchant for rolling then comfirming crits.
2. Part of this is on the group I play with lets say tactics aren't really there. (Of course the people who cause this won't play the cleric)
3. Usually somehow someone is always rendered useless in combat. i.e. primary damage dealer failed a save gianing the frightened condition and couldn't participate in 90% of that encounter. The one time I did decide to go the offensive path I was the one who ended up dead......go figure (it turned out to be pretty funny).
1. His dice may be unbalanced, not that me telling you that will solve anything. Of course some people just roll well.
2. If you have to heal due to group tactics that is not a problem with the cleric.I would try to help them out. ---> You can speak as a free action to suggest ideas.
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1. His dice may be unbalanced, not that me telling you that will solve anything. Of course some people just roll well.
Trust me it's not the dice. I've seen him roll well with any d20 handed to him. As for average damage dice whatever they may be his average is 70% as opposed to those of us who are normal and our average is 50%.
Trust me I wish I could say it was unbalanced dice. I must say the rest of the group has fun, just not the poor sap who gets stuck playying the healer.
And for the most part if I dedicate my role to healing the party is pretty well off. I just didn't realize this wasn't the norm.
To be honest, I don't know how combats go on without someone (or something) used as healing. Our clerics usually have to spend their action every other round healing some or all of us.
Pathfinder has given us more health than in previous editions, which helps with this, but it doesn't eliminate the need to battle heal.
Our melee types get beat up pretty good (I beat up PCs when I run and see my party members get beat up when I play). Without a healer (ours are nearly always clerics) we would lose a party member in the big battles (not skirmishes of course).
It's true that most of the healing is done after combat, but the point being that if we didn't do combat healing then we would have a dead barbarian or fighter on our hands (or possibly wizard when the wizard gets targeted, or fails a save, or whatever). This also assumes combats are fairly short (3-4 rounds), as when they go longer there is more healing done in combat.
It is interesting to read how different groups handle combat, and I can certainly see the point of finishing combats quicker to reduce healing. If we did this, though, we would most likely have a lot more PC deaths than we do, and for our group it is rare to have a PC death.
To be honest, I don't know how combats go on without someone (or something) used as healing. Our clerics usually have to spend their action every other round healing some or all of us.
I ran savage tide till level 14 or 15 with almost zero healing in the group. The ranger had UMD for wands, but really he spent most time killing things, and healing after the battle, they invested in potions and wands. A cleric is nice but not a must to have.
healing once in a while is ok, healing every round seems boring..
maybe healing spells should have a cooldown so clerics are cut some slack to do other things :)
You do not have to heal everyround. You make the choice to do so. And most important, if you do not want to play a cleric then do not, and if your cleric is not a healer but more somebody that "well I can heal a little" cool
There is no one way to play the class
well basically true, but that is a hard sell in a party since everyone knows you can cure as long as you have spells and turn attempts left.
so try telling them you do not want to heal this round :p
Easy, tell them your playing a character not a wand. If they want healing every single round they can buy a wand, a potion or have an Npc follow em around all the time using the wand.
They should not expect you to heal every single round. If they do, then it should be their turn to play the cleric and see how they like it
I am mostly GM by the way, but I do see the tendency clerics getting annoyed they have to constantly heal to not get completely shattered in or in between encounters.. they rather have fun and do other things than healing. peer pressure I suppose ^^
A typical D&D party (divine caster, arcane caster, beatstick, skill monkey) has only 1 char that benefits from haste, and it's the PC which is most likely to taken out by some stupid save-or-go-screw-yourself spell such as, let me think, lvl 1 grease.
Arcane caster summons monsters. Divine caster summons monsters. Skill monkey gets into flanking position. Beatstick gets into the thick of it. Arcane caster casts haste.
Party wins.
I ran savage tide till level 14 or 15 with almost zero healing in the group. The ranger had UMD for wands, but really he spent most time killing things, and healing after the battle, they invested in potions and wands. A cleric is nice but not a must to have.
Just curious how long most of the combats ran? Were there many character deaths? Were various PCs regularly unconscious at the end of combats?
I recently ran Crypt of the Everflame and without healing in combat for more than half of the combats there would have been multiple character deaths (probably leading to TPKs without said members conscious and helping). I've DM'd GenCon RPGA tournaments and seen the same thing. And beyond that, it's just been my long-term experience that major combats require combat healing or else PCs die.
I think it's neat that your experiences are different. /salute!
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Just curious how long most of the combats ran? Were there many character deaths? Were various PCs regularly unconscious at the end of combats?
I recently ran Crypt of the Everflame and without healing in combat for more than half of the combats there would have been multiple character deaths (probably leading to TPKs without said members conscious and helping). I've DM'd GenCon RPGA tournaments and seen the same thing. And beyond that, it's just been my long-term experience that major combats require combat healing or else PCs die.
I think it's neat that your experiences are different. /salute!
Humm this has been almost 2 years now so working from memory
We had a combat heavy group, ranger/were touched master, repeating crossbow focused Fighter/rogue/dread pirate and a fighter. Sometimes an NPC as well
Combats tended to be 3-6 rounds, very fast, there were deaths in the first 3 adventures, a rogue, ninja, and a barbarian. I am forgetting one oh yeah a named NPc in part 3
but after that nada, they tended to kill things, fast and brutal, the fight at the end of "the lightless depths was the hardiest, folks keep failing will saves
spoiler for city of broken idols here
There was an deinosuchus[ titanic crocodile] CR 15 415 hp, the level 14 shiter ranger pretty much soloed him, everyone else was trying not to drowned, the drwaf got off 2 hit, then the ranger mangled the poor thing, badly 3 rounds 4 if ya count the surprise round
but know after most fights they were all up and going, they tended not to rest mush and just run from place to place. Stopping downing some potion or using the wands. Gods at times they went though wands fast
As long as they could pass will saves it was all good. Not having casters made some parts harder, but they tended to go prepared and used their heads
I ran savage tide till level 14 or 15 with almost zero healing in the group. The ranger had UMD for wands, but really he spent most time killing things, and healing after the battle, they invested in potions and wands. A cleric is nice but not a must to have.
This is my experience as well (not Savage Tide specifically) - a general low level of healing magic through high levels isn't going to kill a party under most situations.
If it is a problem there *might* be an issue of players not focusing enough on defense, in addition to strategy issues and just "super-hard" campaigns/DMs. Talking can help in these cases, whether recommending armor upgrades, better tactics, or asking the DM to ease up a bit so it's not a constant race to burn out every heal you can.
I ran savage tide till level 14 or 15 with almost zero healing in the group. The ranger had UMD for wands, but really he spent most time killing things, and healing after the battle, they invested in potions and wands. A cleric is nice but not a must to have.To be honest, I don't know how combats go on without someone (or something) used as healing. Our clerics usually have to spend their action every other round healing some or all of us.
That's well and good for your group, but in my experience, a Cleric healing in combat is definitely a must have. I think what we have here is a "your mileage may vary" situation...
In the group we're playing in, Clerics definitely need something extra... so we're going to houserule in that at 20 their CPE is maximized.
What I have found is when there is a cleric in the party the GM can use the monsters to do their best shot. When there is no cleric most GMs pull their punches. Last time I played G2 was as a cleric. The fighter charged a frost giant and immediately was hit by a criting great axe. 99 hit points later what could I do other than get him back on his feat.
Personally I have no problem playing the physician and priest of <insert campaign setting god/goddess> with a maxed out heal skill and the healing domain. Most fights I get to contribute more than just heal. But my clerics tend to be the best at what they do and what they do is very nice. Shameless rip off.
A typical D&D party (divine caster, arcane caster, beatstick, skill monkey) has only 1 char that benefits from haste, and it's the PC which is most likely to taken out by some stupid save-or-go-screw-yourself spell such as, let me think, lvl 1 grease.Arcane caster summons monsters. Divine caster summons monsters. Skill monkey gets into flanking position. Beatstick gets into the thick of it. Arcane caster casts haste.
Party wins.
I suppose the parties I play with never are typical, I have 7 players about 5 players in a session on average and just the mage
(a conjurer)and mystic theurge do not directly benefit from haste, though the conjurer does benefit ofcourse indirectly. everyone else has some decent to very good combat ability.
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Not enough for what they gained, channel is a huge boost, very useful. Tis nice to be able to heal and get to cast some spells however.
But still they are a bit much.
Anyhow the spells were overpowered and pretty much the poster children for broken.
what they won is in benefit of everyone
the clerics hae been nerfed, and baddly, pushed into a limited niche from where their spells and domain powers do little to bring them out.they have been nerfed... between the clerics and a few other things(including the great hate i feel toward clerics in this forums) is that i don't use PF RPG rules... except for the beastiary.
but since cleric haters are more than those with love for the cleric, do as you wish
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One thing you have to remember about the cleric and healing at low levels is that when somebody goes down on the ground they typically are no longer a target. That means that person is safe while the stabilization clock ticks down and the party finishes off the enemies. (Note this doesn't work in games where the cleric makes it a habit to pop off Channels in combat, the enemies will learn to finish off downed foes to prevent them from popping back up.)
you forget there are benefits from spells and classes and prestige classes for finishes enemies while they are down... besides evil DM and are spells...
if a character is down he needs to be cared of... before the cleric could try to go and recover said character, now well... less armor.. less benefits... from 3.5 to PF less spells... less efficient spells...
I for one would let the other PC die...
and... and i promsied to myself not to return to this topic.. I noe Paizo hates the cleric... paizonians hate the cleric... so there is no case in arguing at all... its fun the same people that ahte the cleric then complain they don't have a cleric to survive...
They are still powerful just not boarderline broken as badly as before. The channel helps then be more effective as they may get to cast spell in place of "sigh, I give up [x] and cast CMW" The class got a boost, the spells got nerfed
Wizard spells got hit with the nerf bat as well, but the two cleric spells needed a nerf, needed it bad.
We don't hate the Cleric. We just want the Paladin and the Fighter to be the best at what they do, instead of being poor man's Clerics sans spellcasting.
That's just it. The Paladin is the best at fighting evil things. Why should he also be the best at channeling positive energy? I feel strongly that should be something the Cleric is better at.
We don't hate the Cleric. We just want the Paladin and the Fighter to be the best at what they do, instead of being poor man's Clerics sans spellcasting.
+ 1
Clerics should not be better fighters then full BAB classes. If you want to be a front line fighter, well play a fighter or a paladin, even a ranger|
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and... and i promsied to myself not to return to this topic.. I noe Paizo hates the cleric... paizonians hate the cleric... so there is no case in arguing at all... its fun the same people that ahte the cleric then complain they don't have a cleric to survive...
For what it's worth Montalve, I personally love the cleric. The concept, the legacy, the class.
I agree something needed to be done (though I would have preferred a larger boost to the non-casters as opposed to a nerf/boost, but hopefully the monsters were modified to reflect the party changes) but that doesn't mean I have anything against clerics my friend.
jeje i understand, that makes very few of us :P... but you should see how much the cleric get fire (cof even if some friends say otherwise just a couple post up)
for the level 20 during alpha test what was asked was for a domain power that was worth that elvel, not an spell that anyone could have...
i must admit one thing... 4E has something interesting for each god's cleric, its a feat or a encounter pwoer but its interesting, and the rituals are way more powerful and decent magic that i have seen besides Monte Cook's (and SKR's) World of Darkness.
Its just a shame that an interesting concept like the Beta Domains was passed along because people who msotly ahte the cleric complained about them (and the lazy clerics who cried that they could not convert their clercis because that was the only feature that was no straightforward backcompatible)
yeah i know every spellcaster was given the foot, useful spells for soemthing else for combat were redner useless, or made nothing more than combat spells... yes the monsters are accordingly because they are done thinking in nothing but a single encounter... again and again the game becomes nothing but a overrated table game where people act their character... because the character attributes in general are of little use combat or very small niches.
its sad, yes.
PS: i must insist.. if they took their armor.. at least they should have given them a couple extra skill points... and yes I have argued this a myriad of times for the fighter/paladin/sorcerer/wizard....
and no.. i am not interested in cloistered clerics... they are good npcs, nothing else.
maybe it is not people hating clerics, but rather you love them a bit too much ;)
I do agree on some points though, channel energy doesnt serve a cleric very well, infact I tend to think it makes a cleric more boring than it ever was.
Would rather have seen channeling / turn undead be used to enhance them in various ways, something like divine feats did in 3.5.
Would have liked to see more options to mold the cleric in a role you want it to play, but rather they became stuck in healer mode.
I rather not see a base cleric warrior though, it should be something you actively choose and select abilities for, representing the role of the priest and deity in a more colourful way.
I like the domains in general, though these abilities seem to not come in play often, as the cleric in many encounters seem to be just channeling, since it is the best thing to do.
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maybe it is not people hating clerics, but rather you love them a bit too much ;)
I do agree on some points though, channel energy doesnt serve a cleric very well, infact I tend to think it makes a cleric more boring than it ever was.
Would rather have seen channeling / turn undead be used to enhance them in various ways, something like divine feats did in 3.5.
Would have liked to see more options to mold the cleric in a role you want it to play, but rather they became stuck in healer mode.
I rather not see a base cleric warrior though, it should be something you actively choose and select abilities for, representing the role of the priest and deity in a more colourful way.
I like the domains in general, though these abilities seem to not come in play often, as the cleric in many encounters seem to be just channeling, since it is the best thing to do.
believe me... there is lot of hate for the cleric in this forums... with the wizard all its toys have been nerfed, losing usefulness and passing to videogame magic (but without the cheap restore of time like mana in WoW), yet.. people wants them more nerfed.. check this thread, there is a lot of clamor for continue nerfing them when they have lost already lots of things... and what they recieve is for the group, not them. the group wins, yes he doesn't need to convert his already few spells in cures... yet many of their spells are diminished not only in effectiveness but in durations.
in agree in most cases, i haven't even tried the new domains... i just hate them, maybe because the Beta ones were too creative or too interesting, just lacked a 20tl level power for endgame... seeing them diluted with water and the return of bonus spells (which for me could be left aside) made me altogether despise the complete PF edition (its not the only reason... just the strongest one)... I work partially with it... but we heavily modify the classes with the use Monte Cook's BoXM and 3.5 parts... PF Raw juust don't sit well with anyone on my table. and i am the one that speaks better of it.
and about the domain powers... they have served my cleric well... helping them achive things in spectacular ways (the level 1 power of Glory was used to calm the guards when they saved Sandpoint, but the guards were angry because they lose people and the people cheered on us... that besides some positive channeling used on the guards ensured their friendship and loyalty :P)... unarmed clerics are not unarmed nor vulnerable if they ahve the sun domain... produce flame is excelent during grapples and boxing matches...
sun domain worked wonders against ghouls in the 2nd book of RotRL
actually I think some of the complains of some whining DM is that some doains powers were too sueful and some were not.. so instead of just correcting this... they just let them toguether in the same thashcan...
i understand the reasons... just don't agree with them :P
but since the popular voice says... clerics should be helbots and nothing else.. i suppose groups would keep buying potions and CLW wands and complainign "why no one wants to eb the cleric" :P
which strangely enough the archives could show its one common problem :P
inony, poeple who hates the cleric asking for it to be nerfed, and then asking why they don't have one on their party...
but if you look at the class it is better then the 3.5 class
it lost heavy armor, gained channel, it gained more domain power then it had in 3.5
It like all casters had spells rebalanced. The way casting defensively worked got changed. The class it's self got little in the way of nerf. The druid lost more then the cleric did[ not that it was uncalled for]
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Healbot is a useless role in most groups.
Assuming a Fighter with heavy armor and a shield, a rogue dual-wielder, and a pair of controllers as cleric/druid and sorcerer/wizard, no one in the party will take enough damage to drop them in combat.
Heck, I just played in a one-shot 8th level game. We had Two barbarians, one with a falchion and one with a greatsword, a melee bard (who knew no healing spells), and a healbot cleric. The cleric player looked at the other three characters and decided to build his cleric to do nothing but healing and some buff spells. We had a series of fights that all took place within 5 minutes of in-game time. The cleric was horribly bored - only used channel energy twice, cast one Cure Critical Wound spell, and only needed two purges - a "restoration" and a "dispel magic".
Admittedly, I was the Bard, and I did alot to reduce incoming damage. A convenient setup and lucky roll blinded the entire first encounter - 15 5th level fighter types - for a full 5 rounds, which reduced incoming damage by a lot. Focus fire + sunder crippled the big melee nasty in the next fight so we just had to deal with some debuffs from the druid. The last fight was against a big, heavily armored dwarf with some rogues and mages acting as snipers, so we just out-moved the dwarf (two barbarians + control spells + no one in heavy armor) and quickly squiched the annoyances in the back. At the end of it all, no one has under half health, and we hadn't done any out of combat healing, just short pauses to let the barbarians rage timer tick down. The cleric spent most of the time whining about how bored she was, and wanted us to take an 8 hour rest so she could select boom spells and actually contribute to blowing stuff up even faster.
Clerics make excellent healbots, but healbots are generally not useful.
Clerics can excel in other roles, however. In fact, I suspect one could take the Druid and Wizard optimization guides and figure out how to make a solid battle cleric, a solid controller cleric, and a solid blaster cleric.
It's just that no one has bothered to do so and post it here yet. Maybe give it a try?
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It's just that no one has bothered to do so and post it here yet.
That is most likely because they would end up with people posting drek about how the clreic doesn't need an optimization guide because it's so overpowered... and then they'll whine when their party's cleric can do little more than be a healbot.
I agree there is too much focus on healing to make the cleric interesting to me. I have high hopes for the new inquisitor class though it seems much more like a cleric I would want to play, it doesnt appear stuffy and preset in his role.
Druid seems a more interesting choice for many players, just because they dont have to spend all their spells on cures, call it peer pressure if you will, but if you can heal.. which a cleric can till he cant do anything anymore, you are expected to use it.
I might consider dropping the channel ability reverting it to Turn Undead or rather call it Channel Energy and give divine feats to use with it, much like was done in 3.5, there were actually a few good ones among them which were pretty sweet.
In exchange maybe make cure minor wounds an orison to be used at will, healing up to half a creatures maximum hitpoints.
Useless in combat, but it might help a great deal to keep a party going after only a short rest and just a few higher spells.
maybe it is not people hating clerics, but rather you love them a bit too much ;)
Maybe but there is a ton of cleric hate out here in Paizo world.
I do agree on some points though, channel energy doesnt serve a cleric very well, infact I tend to think it makes a cleric more boring than it ever was.
Well put, it sure does force all clerics into the same role.
One thing it does do is make the Paladin very very powerful as a healer while also leaving them as top end melee fighters too.
I like the domains in general, though these abilities seem to not come in play often, as the cleric in many encounters seem to be just channeling, since it is the best thing to do.
I would like to see channelling go away. It forces the cleric too much to one play style. The use of domains to support various play styles would in my veiw be a better option.
The heavy armor change is just a slight not a reasonable change for balance issues. Clearly balance has little to do with it, since they claimed to have countered that loss with the addition of allowing some priest to have a bonus feat to replace it (favored weapon). Of course doing that was unbalanced since it granted a bonus martial feat based not on domains but on favored weapons. So a warlike diety who favors a simple weapon get no bonus martial feat but a peaceful diety who favors a martial weapon does, not sure sense, logic or balance had anything to do with that change.
I would also point out that heavy armor isn't really a bonus so much as flavor. Heavy armor is nice for protective purposes, espically at low to medium levels. But it makes moving tough and forces you to have a decent str stat and lets face it everyone wants a decent dex stat since going first is a real issue at higher levels were Pathfinder (and 3.5) becomes more like rocket tag. Whoever goes first win because damage/ability to disable so vastly outshines surrvivability. Does anyone who argues in support of clerics loosing their heavy armor skill really think giving it to them breaks the game?
Honestly medium armor prof is nearly worthless since with light armor prof you can achieve nearly the same protection (actually the same protection unless you have an exceptional dex which most clerics wont have). So by loosing hvy armor they really have dropped not to medium but to having no significate advanatage over light armor. When you realize that clerics now have no real cause to wear more then light armor you can see why some started calling them white mages.
The one weak point I see in Channel Energy is that it is indiscriminate. If you pop it off while in the midst of melee, you either affect all living creatures or all undead. Granted, many parties don't have any undead in their ranks, so using it to hurt the undead isn't such a problem. If your enemies are living, however, all Channel Energy does is make the fight longer. Both your party AND the bad guys get healed.
What I would suggest for a capstone power would be a boost to the cleric himself, coupled with a small twist to the Channel Energy power. I would give the cleric the Outsider (native) template, granting him all the immunities or resistances an outsider of his alignment gets (while still being targetable by Raise Dead, Resurrection, etc.) I don't have my PF book near me right now, so I don't have the exact abilities where I can quote them. I would probably add to that an immunity to the effects of aging, so that the cleric can be a devoted servant to his god that much longer. Also, I would imagine that the cleric's melee attacks would count as aligned, with respect to one of his god's alignment requirements. (A lawful god would have 20th level clerics that hit with the power of Law.)
I would also allow the cleric to be selective in his Channel Energy targets, allowing him to choose to affect only those creatures that share at least one alignment component. All your enemies are evil? No problem, just declare that only creatures with a Good component are affected by the Positive Energy burst. Likewise, if you have an adventurous DM that allows free-willed undead as party members, you can restrict the damaging Positive energy burst to only affect those Undead which are evil.
Just my two copper pieces...
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It's just that no one has bothered to do so and post it here yet.That is most likely because they would end up with people posting drek about how the clreic doesn't need an optimization guide because it's so overpowered... and then they'll whine when their party's cleric can do little more than be a healbot.
indeed
thanks Dragonborn3 for spelling the obvious :)every time some show how the cleric can be useful whiners cry CoDzilla! and ask for nerfs... that the powers that be are more than happy to provide... as can be seen for the last editions chanegs including PF
I toyed with the idea of writing a guide to clerics. Real life just gets in the way at times. Just looking at setting up a cleric to fill a role can get complicated.
Undead Slayer - Domains Sun and Glory. Feats - Improved Channel Energy and Extra Channel. Later on you can add Channelling Smite and Alignment Channel to deal with outsiders.
Holy/unholy Warrior - Pick a deity with a two handed weapon and one or more of the alignment domains (Chaos, Evil, Good and/or Lawful). For a evil cleric Evil and Destruction have a nice synergy. Death Knell is your friend with this role. Eventually you will need to get Heavy Armor proficiency. If I were playing a cleric in a region like Mendev I would pick Iomedae as my patron and Lawful and Good as my domains. Die, demon, die!
Physcian - Domains Good and Healing. Feats - Skill Focus (Heal) and Self Sufficient. This combination of feats can get you a +12 at 1st level if you have a healers kit.
Summoner - not any where as good as a druid or conjurer but you can focus on summoning some intersting allies.
Best alignment is neutral so you get access to all of the spells but may limit you on some domains.
The spell list does not have many battle field control spells or as good as a wizard's buffing/debuffing spells. Most of the really good save or bad things happen spells have been turned into quasi-evocation.
While it is still a versatile class I agree with Montalve the Beta domains were much more interesting.
Doug
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interesting ideas
i have no problem with channeling afecting friends and foes... its calls for tactics... but they diluted it when they give ti a switch (either heal living or harm undead, or viceversa) considering logic and flavor is a ridiculous idea... its the same energy its liek throwing a fireball over a fire elemental and saying "he can't heal... that was just to cause damage"... of course the powers that be would not check this kind of thread because they are tired of hearing complains about their changes.
the other changes are interesting.. and for the 20th level is interesitng.. the monk becomes native outsider thorugh enlightment... but a cleric does not when they serve a Power... considering the notion of saints and lower outsiders its logic for them to achieve some kind of extraplanar benefit... the wizard will get it with wishes anyway...
and if they say this is abuse then why in their adventures are cities and realms created with Wish-magics?
interesting list of roles
exactly this is how i see it, domains should emphazise the rol of the cleric within its church and religion, i know many players just wat to have some extra spells under the sleeve (come again... Fireball? for the cleric? am I the only one seeing this as absurd when they complain the cleric is overpowered?) but for flavor and interest in general they had done a wonderful job... in the Beta
of course they have said it... Beta is for "crazy" things... and see where people see problems.. unfortunately... the whinners were louder than those who liked the changes...
I for one keep the original PF Domains at hand :)
Montalve said
i have no problem with channeling afecting friends and foes... its calls for tactics... but they diluted it when they give ti a switch (either heal living or harm undead, or viceversa) considering logic and flavor is a ridiculous idea... its the same energy its liek throwing a fireball over a fire elemental and saying "he can't heal... that was just to cause damage"... of course the powers that be would not check this kind of thread because they are tired of hearing complains about their changes.
The switch was in my opinion a bad idea. Your example of hitting a fire elemental with a fireball illustrates it nicely. If I plane shift both an injured party member and a vampire to the elemental plane of positive energy, the injured party member heals and the vampire turns to dust. A positive energy burst from a cleric should do the same.
Doug
Well I have a problem with channeling as a rule.. just use a mass heal spell, but yes from a mechanical viewpoint it should affect everyone like positive damage should. it makes encounters with undead even more boring though.